Help me move from DVD Remake to PGCEdit

[MorbidPenguin]

I already use PGCEdit on a limited basis, just to jump to the main menu upon DVD Insert. I'm looking to completely replace DVD Remake with it, though, and I need some help.

Most of the guides I've seen are pretty old (2Cools are from 2004 or so) or too advanced for me. Here's my typical backup procedure.

1. Rip movie with AnyDVD (Remove region, remove PUOs, etc).
2. Process with DVD Remake
2a. Enable all operations (Probably not necessary since AnyDVD removes PUOs).

2b. Remove breakpoint (not sure if this is necessary - read it in a guide on another site).

2c. Go through and edit menu buttons. Hide unnecessary buttons. I often have to "Bypass Menu (Auto Select Button)" since I live in Taiwan and almost every movie gives me a choice of Main Menu in English or Chinese.

2d. Blank titles I don't want - special features, previews, ads, etc.

2e. Export DVD.

3. Run in PGCEdit to jump to main menu upon insert.

4. Test DVD files in MPC to make sure everything works.

5. If necessary, process with DVD Rebuilder Pro to get size down.

6. Burn with IMGBURN.

So, basically, I want a way to condense all of step 2 and 3 into just PGCEdit but I haven't found a guide to really walk me through that yet.

So... did I miss a guide or where can I find out how to edit menu buttons and blank out unnecessary stuff with PGCEdit? I know that it does that now, but first I have to skip that stuff and then blank it?

Thanks for helping a noob like me.

[r0lZ]

Welcome to the forum, MorbidPenguin!

2a. See DVD -> Filter Prohibited User Operations (and perhaps also Enable Navigation Buttons, I'm not sure DRM does that.)

2b. Double click on the main movie PGC and look at the Seamless Joint checkboxes in the cells table.

2c.1. To hide a menu button, select the menu PGC, open the menu viewer, click Edit and select Button -> Hide button.

2c.2. To bypass a menu PGC, just use "Kill PGC Playback". You will be prompted to select the button to simulate.

2d. There are many ways to blank titles in PgcEdit. You can blank cell by cell during the trace, blank a PGC with Kill PGC Playback, or blank a whole titleset with "Blank out all PGCs in domain."

2e. There is no need to export the DVD with PgcEdit, as it works directly on the current DVD. Just save it. It's much more faster!
However, if you have blanked menus, cells or PGCs during step 2d, you will have to process the whole DVD (or the affected domains) through FixVTS or VobBlanker, to regain the disc space, as PgcEdit doesn't remove the cells from the VOBs, unless all cells of the domain are blanked.

Good luck, and have fun with your new tool!

[MorbidPenguin]

Thanks for the great info... I'm working through my first full PGCEdit backup now.

One more question... how about stripping unwanted Audio and Subtitles?
I've been clicking on the VTS and then going to Domain > Domain Stream Attributes and deleting the audio and subtitles I don't want. After I do that, I get a box telling me to fix the SetSTN records.

I'm lost there... how should I fix them? I've backed up the DVD and even played it (without "fixing" anything) and it seems to be OK... do I need to worry about that?

Also, is Vobblanker/FixVTS necessary? I thought PGCEdit could do the same thing with the new "DVD > Remove Useless Stuff" command.

Thanks again for the great walkthrough!

[blutach]

PgcEdit does not actually strip the streams. You can do that in VobBlanker (http://jsoto.posunplugged.com/vobblanker.htm) for example (or any popular transcoder).

In PgcEdit's Domain Attributes Window, all it does is take the stream out of the IFO.

Regards

[MorbidPenguin]

So if I process the DVD in PGCEdit, delete the audio/sub menu buttons and remove the streams, I just have to open the DVD in Vobblanker, hit "process" and I'm good to go?

[r0lZ]

No! Do NOT delete the streams with PgcEdit before using VB. Without the references in the IFOs, you won't be able to select the streams to delete. I suggest you undo the incremental backups until the IFOs with all streams are restored, as otherwise you won't be able to regain the disc space.

The delete stream function in PgcEdit should be used only when you know for sure that a stream does not exist in the VOBs, but is referenced in the IFOs. It can be used also to fill the gaps left over by DVDShrink or similar apps, but you need to fix the SetSTN commands (hence the message you've seen.)

[linx05]

No! Do NOT delete the streams with PgcEdit before using VB. Without the references in the IFOs, you won't be able to select the streams to delete. I suggest you undo the incremental backups until the IFOs with all streams are restored, as otherwise you won't be able to regain the disc space.I made this mistake not so long ago. I thought by deleting the stream reference from the IFOs and then running it through VobBlanker, VobBlanker would remove the audio streams because they are not referenced. I made too much of a mess with the backups PgcEdit created so I had to start the whole rip over again.

It is a perfect example of learning by messing around.

[r0lZ]

Yes, unfortunately, that doesn't work. I've also tried with DVDShrink and FixVTS, but they don't remove the unreferenced streams neither.

[blutach]

I may be wrong (and havent tested it), but I thought transcoders like DVD Shrink and things like DVD Rebuilder (http://dvd-rb.dvd2go.org/) managed to strip the streams, even though they were not referenced in the IFOs.

Regards

[r0lZ]

I suppose so, yes. I see no reason to keep an unreferenced stream. But who knows? I haven't tested with DVDRB.

[MorbidPenguin]

Alright, I think I got it now.

If I am going to use Vobblanker to strip all the unreferenced and useless stuff, is there any reason to do it in PGCedit first?

Also, does it matter if I use PGCEdit first and Vobblanker second? I've been hiding menu buttons, jumping to the menu PGC, etc in PGCEdit first, then I called Vobblanker and stripped the audio and subs and processed it.

After that, I should be good to go for DVD Rebuilder, right?

Thanks again for the help. This takes a lot of getting used to coming from DVD Remake.

[r0lZ]

PgcEdit is not made to strip the streams, but can replace the useless VOB cells by tiny blank cells. The original cells are not removed from the VOB files, but processing the DVD with VB (or FixVTS) is sufficient to remove them. You don't have to specify which cells you want to remove, as VB drops the unreferences cells anyway. That's not true for the streams, as you know now.
So, removing the unreferenced cells with PgcEdit and processing the DVD with VB or removing them directly in VB is almost equivalent. Only the GUI changes. Use the method you are the most comfortable with.
Note however that VB cannot blank a menu with buttons. If you do that, the navigation will be broken. Also, the method to "kill playback" of a PGC is more sophisticated in PgcEdit, and should work on most cases without problem. (The VB method is good too, but fails sometimes.)
And VB cannot process the titlesets containing interleaved cells (multi-angle or multi-story PGCs.) If you need to process such a DVD, either remove all angles but one with PgcEdit, or do not process the multi-angle titles with VB, and compress them with DVDShrink. (I don't know if DVDRB supports interleaved cells.)

You can use PgcEdit or VB first, if doesn't matter, except, of course, if you use PgcEdit to blank the cells. Also, usually, I prefer to use PgcEdit first, as you can already blank completely the useless titlesets, remove useless menu VOBs, remove unnecessary menu language units, etc... It is much more time consuming to do that in VB.

I like also very much MenuShrink. It can convert animated menus to stills, and keep or drop the audio. Really useful to regain much disc space. I use it usually at the end of the cleanup, if the main movie doesn't fit on a single layer DVD. (Note that VB can do the same thing, but IMO MenuShrink is much easier to use.)

Of course, you should use DVDRB as the last step, if it is still needed.

[Wombler]

I don't know if DVDRB supports interleaved cells.


Yep, it does.


Wombler

[blutach]

Talking about streams, I have a feeling that once VobBlanker has stripped them, it leaves them in the IFOs. This is precisely the situation that PgcEdit corrects (and does so automatically when reloading the DVD).

Regards

[linx05]

Talking about streams, I have a feeling that once VobBlanker has stripped them, it leaves them in the IFOs. This is precisely the situation that PgcEdit corrects (and does so automatically when reloading the DVD).

Regards

Just like DVD Rebuilder (unless you add a line to the .ini). This has been a very informative thread for me. Thank you guys.

/me bookmarks it

EDIT:
I just backed up Pineapple Express R4. Ripped the first disc to the hard drive with the AnyDVD Ripper. Then processed it with PgcEdit (did not touch the audio/subtitle streams). After that I ran it through DVD Rebuilder PRO with only the English audio/subtitles kept, the rest removed, 0% compressed. It looks like the actual audio and subtitles have been removed correctly but they are still referenced in the IFOs (I have yet to add the line to the DVD Rebuilder PRO .ini).

Once DVD Rebuilder PRO had finished, I loaded the finished DVD files into PgcEdit. The streams were not fixed in PgcEdit upon loading. Probably because PgcEdit does not deal with VOBs primarily. I thought you (blutach) might be mistaken about it so I tested it once again.

After the test I removed the references through the Domain Streams Attributes feature.

EDIT:
Now I have to go through all the 'SetSTN' commands and make sure they point to the right audio/subtitle.

:/

[blutach]

The streams were not fixed in PgcEdit upon loading. Probably because PgcEdit does not deal with VOBs primarily.
No, they are not removed automatically because they are still referenced in the PGCs! Double click on the title to see. Now, load it up in DVD Shrink and see those streams are actually 0 bytes!

So, they can be removed safely from the DSA as you have done. In reality, DVDRB should take these out of the PGCs and the MAT tables.

Regards

[linx05]

No, they are not removed automatically because they are still referenced in the PGCs! Double click on the title to see. Now, load it up in DVD Shrink and see those streams are actually 0 bytes!That is what I just said. You were saying PgcEdit does it automatically upon the DVD files being reloaded into PgcEdit.

So, they can be removed safely from the DSA as you have done. In reality, DVDRB should take these out of the PGCs and the MAT tables.

RegardsI thought the default setting in DVD Rebuilder PRO was to remove the audio streams (if asked) but leave the references in the IFO (for safety)? That is how it happen here.

[MorbidPenguin]

So what is the correct and easiest way? Editing the SetSTN command isn't easy for a noob like me.

Edit in PGCEdit
Remove streams in Vobblanker.
Reload in PGCEdit and let it autocorrect?

I'll test this out on my next DVD.

[blutach]

You were saying PgcEdit does it automatically upon the DVD files being reloaded into PgcEdit.
Only if they are not in the PGCs. If they are in the PGCs, PgcEdit assumes the stream is there.

I thought the default setting in DVD Rebuilder PRO was to remove the audio streams (if asked) but leave the references in the IFO (for safety)? The only reason to leave them in the IFO is if ther order is somehow disrupted (eg streams 0 and 2 are there but 1 is null). Then, as you flick thru the remote, you would come across a null stream. But if you are left with stream 0 with audio (subs) and streams 1-n being null, it makes no sense to keep them referenced.

So what is the correct and easiest way?
Edit in PGCEdit
Remove streams in Vobblanker.
Reload in PGCEdit and let it autocorrect?
That's what I would do.

Regards

[r0lZ]

Take in mind that it could be dangerous to disable a stream if it is not at the end of the list.

For example, suppose you have a VTS with 4 audio streams. You want to keep only streams 0 and 2.

Stream 3, the last one, can be removed, as you will not be able to select it with the remote any more. Just be sure to remove the SetSTN commands that select it.

But if you remove stream 1, when you will try to switch from stream 0 to stream 2 with the remote (or vice versa), your player will encounter a deleted stream. If the reference is still in the IFO, no problem: the audio will simply be silent. (It's probably why DVDRB doesn't remove it.) But if the stream has been disabled in the IFOs, the player can react in different ways. It can just skip it (that's perfect), but it can also refuse to "jump over" the null stream (and you cannot select the other stream) or it can even crash!

DVDShrink has an option to shift the stream numbers to fill the holes. If you enable it, for our example, it moves stream 2 to stream 1, and deletes completely the 2 remaining streams. It tries to fix the SetSTN commands to point to stream 1 instead of stream 2. However, it can do that only for the direct SetSTN commands (SetSTN audio = stream #N) but it cannot fix the indirect SetSTN commands (SetSTN audio = GPRM(X) ) as fixing the Set GPRM(X) command would require a full analysis of the navigation. (BTW, the DVDShrink plugin for PgcEdit has a function to check if this option can be safely used.)

Another way to avoid the problem of the gaps is to assign an existing stream to fill the holes. In our example, we could assign stream 0 or 2 to stream 1. There will be two identical streams, but it's better than crashing the player! And the reassigned stream will not consume disc space, as it references a VOB stream that you want to keep any way.

You can also leave the holes, and disable the menu buttons that select them, and leave or set the "Audio Stream Change" PUO so that it will be impossible to select a disabled stream with the remote. Unfortunately, most users want to remove all PUOs, even when they are really useful.

Of course, the best method is to remove the stream and shift the next ones to fill the holes. Your DVD will therefore contain only streams 0 and 1, but you have to fix the SetSTN commands manually. It's why there are functions to delete the streams in PgcEdit. (But, currently, PgcEdit does not try to fix the SetSTN commands automatically.)

Finally, note that PgcEdit removes automatically the streams at the end of the list only. For example, if stream 1 and 3 have been disabled in the PGCs but are still referenced in Domain Stream Attributes, it will offer to delete stream 3 completely, but will not delete stream 1, as this would renumber stream 2. If you want to delete it, you have to do it manually.

[MorbidPenguin]

I just tried it with my latest DVD: Wanted.

Opened DVD in PGCEdit. Removed some menu buttons, killed some playbacks, traced to main menu on insert, etc.
Then I ran "Remove useless stuff" and saved it. All was good.

Started Vobblanker, removed Jap/Thai audio streams and Jap/Thai/Indonesian/Hong Kong subpics. Processed (saved about 600mb) and saved.

Reopened the DVD in PGCEdit and it did the automatically scan for BOVs thing. After that... should I do something else?

Playing the DVD in Media Player Classic, I can still see the deleted Audio and Subpic streams from the "Navigate > Audio/Subtitle Language Menu" so there must still be a reference to them. Is this when I should go through in PGCEdit and delete those streams or will it be good enough to X them out in DVD Rebuilder when I rebuild the DVD?

Thanks.

[blutach]

Go to the VTS containing the main movie. Ctrl-A and see if all the streams are still there. If they are, you can delete the stripped streams, but you must take note of what r0lZ and I said in posts 19 and 20 (i.e. the order of the streams and whether there will be "holes"). Generally, if there is only one stream left, it is reasonably safe to delete them from the IFOs. If that is stream 0, then there is no risk at all.

Regards

[MorbidPenguin]

Well I reopened it in PGCEdit and it Verified the number of streams, but it didn't correct all of them.

I had the following Audio Streams:
Audio 0: Jap
Audio 1: Eng
Audio 2: Thai

I had the following Subpics:
SubPic 0: Jap
SubPic 1: Eng
SubPic 2: Thai
SubPic 3: Korean
SubPic 4: Indo
SubPic 5: Chinese (Hong Kong)
SubPic 6: Chinese (Traditional)

It took out the Thai audio and the Hong Kong subtitles, but everything else is still there in PGCEdit. I guess the safest way is just to leave them alone, since I don't know anything about Setstn commands and I don't want holes in there.

[r0lZ]

To remove a stream from Domain Stream Attributes, all references to that stream must be cleared in the PGCs of the same VTST. So, if you have removed a stream, say, in the main movie, but not in another title of the same VTST, PgcEdit cannot remove it. Double-click on the PGCs to open the PGC Editor, and have a look at the stream assignments. The streams that PgcEdit can remove are the last ones marked as "none" but not grayed out. They must be "none" in all PGCs of the same VTST.

Of course, the tool you use to remove the streams from the VOB must mark them as "none". I'm not sure VB does that, as I use normally DVDShrink to strip the streams and shrink at the same time.

Usually, it is better to leave the subpic streams in place to not create holes, as they do not consume much disc space any way. Removing the useless audio streams (especially DTS) is more important.

[MorbidPenguin]

After reading an older thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=130922) I loaded up DVDShrink and set the following options:

Hide Audio and subpicture streams of insignificant size
Logical remapping of enabled streams

Then I set it to a full-size backup and copied it into a new folder. Loaded it up in MPC and viola! The deleted streams and subpics are no longer on the Audio/Subtitle language menus.

According to the other thread, this is a fairly reliable way to do it, right?

[r0lZ]

Not always! You have to verify if the streams can be remapped safely. As I've explained elsewhere, Shrink cannot fix the SetSTN commands when they are indirect (using GPRMs.)

Download and install the DVDShrink plugin for PgcEdit. It will tell you if it is safe to enable the "Logical remapping of enabled streams" option. When it's not safe, you should either leave the holes in the streams, or enable the option anyway, but go back to PgcEdit to verify if the streams are still matching the language menu buttons, and fix the SetSTN commands if necessary.

[blutach]

Hide Audio and subpicture streams of insignificant size
Just a note - it is very unsafe to delete these. Most streams where people speak in a foreign langauge on the film (eg the main langauge is English but there's a few phrases in Italian, say) are tiny. The stream is tuned on by default from the main menu or the langauage menu (subtitle = off). If you get rid of these, the movie will be ruined.

Logical remapping is dangerous and should be off (only if the DVD Shrink plugin says it is safe can you have it on). See here (http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/LogRemap.pdf) for a detailed analysis.

Regards

[r0lZ]

Blu, in Shrink, the option to hide the subpic streams means hide from GUI, not strip automatically!

[MorbidPenguin]

Well, the blanked streams show up in MPC when I watch the DVD on my computer, but they disappear when I play it on my DVD and cycle through the Audio and Subtitle selections, so I guess it's all good.

Thanks for the help, blutach and rolz. Lots of valuable information here.
Definitely worth a donation, which I've just sent your way!

[r0lZ]

Thanks! :)

[blutach]

Blu, in Shrink, the option to hide the subpic streams means hide from GUI, not strip automatically!Yes, I'm aware of that. It was just a word of warning. You know how I feel about LR of ES! :)

Regards