Authoring BD5s for playing on the Panasonic DMP-BD35

[MadMonkey57]

I believe it makes sense to start a new thread since I don't want to trash the other threads with the specific issues I come accross with the BD35. So let's start it...

My purpose is pretty simple : Authoring customized but still compliant BD5s for playing on the Panasonic DMP-BD35.

Customized means "possibly main menu, 1/+ audio and subtitle streams per movie, handling commands like those involved in the Force Subtitle ON trick, ..."
BD5 means "blu ray content burned on DVD"
Compliant means "conforming to the BD specs and therefore playable on ANY standalone"

For those who need to catch-up on the BD5 thing, I suggest you start with these threads :

Attempt to centralize info on BD reencoding, transcoding or muxing (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=141376])
smartLabs tsMuxeR: Transport Stream muxer (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=134104)
BD structure edit (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125903)

My own experience so far :

I own a DMP-BD35, EU version, firmware updated to version 1.2 (december, 15th 2008)
I use the following tools : tsmuxer 1.8.8b, BDEdit 0.17b, eac3to, fixclpi, hex editor, Adobe Encore CS4, search feature in Doom9, Google.

The good thing : tsmuxer's output untouched (1/+ audio / subtitle streams) plays fine (including chapter seeking, FFOR/REW)

Now the not so good things :

- Adobe Encore CS4's output (a main menu plus several movies) is rejected ("DISC NOT SUPPORTED") by the BD35
- applying fixclpi on CLIPINF dir breaks FFOR/REW functionalities
- applying fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF ... the BD35 plays for half a sec and stops
- applying the "Force subtitle ON" commands... the BD35 plays for half a sec and stops

Yet, fixclpi should improve compliancy (at minimum it helps for some standalone)...
The "Force subtitle ON" commands seem to work fine on PS3 and definately works on my software player (ArcSOft). AFAIK, no report from other standalone though...
Never seen reports on Adobe Encore CS4 yet...

Please post your experiences so we can try to sort things out and hopefully achieve the goal.

Thank you guys.

----------------------------------------
- Improvements since the very first post -
----------------------------------------
Improvement #1 : Playing backup movies with BD-J content on BD-R (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1228650#post1228650) (thanks to azad)
Improvement #2 : Forcing an audio stream and/or a subtitle (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1228707#post1228707)
Improvement #3 : Playing hybrid AVCHD/BD5 created by commercial authoring software (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828)


-----------------------------------
- Findings since the very first post -
-----------------------------------
Finding #1: 720x576x50p doesn't work, but 1280x720x50p works (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1234959#post1234959)
Finding #2: Why BD-RB full backups don't work on red laser DVD in the BD35 ? (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1237632#post1237632)

[Capsbackup]

My experience:(NTSC). MeGui to encode using .x264 standalone avchd preset to BD5 for dvd+rw and dvd-r discs, eac3to to convert audio to 640kbps ac3, tsMuxeR_1.8.8(b) to mux video, audio and 1 eng sub to Blu-Ray. I use FixclpiGUI. Then burn using IMGBurn udf 2.5 format.
Have made 12 plus conversions so far and all were played back perfectly on Sony BDP-BX1/BDP-350. When Panasonic went on sale for $199.00, I bought one and none of my discs would play. Would just say play and stop. So I updated to the current firmware, but still would not work. I returned the Panasonic since I need compatibility.

[MadMonkey57]

ouch...

[azad]

I have the same kind of problem with the BD35.
I ripped a BD, just deleted some m2ts files (Trailers and stuff), nothing movie related and burned the whole thing on a BD-RE. The BD35 starts to play, shows 00:00:00 and stops.
Without deleting those files, the BD-RE is working. :confused:
So what is the BD35 doing? Checking the BD if every file is accessible!?!? Just kidding, but I don't understand why the player stops when some m2ts files are missing and they are defintely not needed for just accessing the menu and movie itself.

[MadMonkey57]

So at least some the problems seem to affect BD-RE media as well and not just DVDs (BD5/9). It appears as if the BD35 performs some kind of integrity checks on the file structure (and maybe also in the content of some files... could be a reason for BACKUP dir...).

As this misbehaviour seem to affect BD30 as well, even if the problem lies in the firmware, it should be solved by now on the BD30... Either Panasonic don't know or don't care...

I'm looking forward to trying the next version of tsmuxer as well as jdobbs future muxing engine for BD-Rebuilder (tsmuxer is used for now).

[n0mag!c]

So at least some the problems seem to affect BD-RE media as well and not just DVDs (BD5/9). It appears as if the BD35 performs some kind of integrity checks on the file structure (and maybe also in the content of some files... could be a reason for BACKUP dir...).
One assumption comes to my mind, but it can be false (I can't check it by myself, I have PS3).
tsmuxer creates index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv with "INDX0100" and "MOBJ0100" headers, while PLAYLIST\00000.mpls and CLIPINF\00001.clpi with "MPLS0200" and "HDMV0200".
Will patching all headers to "1" or "2" help to solve the issue?

[n0mag!c]

And also what about to experiment with "CERTIFICATE" folder?
Will anything change if:
1) not burn "CERTIFICATE" folder at all
2) burn empty "CERTIFICATE" folder from tsmuxer
3) burn "CERTIFICATE" folder from scenarist bdmv: 9159

[MadMonkey57]

One assumption comes to my mind, but it can be false (I can't check it by myself, I have PS3).
tsmuxer creates index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv with "INDX0100" and "MOBJ0100" headers, while PLAYLIST\00000.mpls and CLIPINF\00001.clpi with "MPLS0200" and "HDMV0200".
Will patching all headers to "1" or "2" help to solve the issue?

I already checked it a while and it didn't work.. but still theses tests were in combination with some others (commands if I remember correctly... ) and I haven't checked with the latest firmware... it's worth a try... I'll let you know...:thanks:

[MadMonkey57]

And also what about to experiment with "CERTIFICATE" folder?
Will anything change if:
1) not burn "CERTIFICATE" folder at all
2) burn empty "CERTIFICATE" folder from tsmuxer
3) burn "CERTIFICATE" folder from scenarist bdmv: 9159

I'll definately give this a try ! I will report back... :thanks: :thanks:

[azad]

I found the problem why the BD35 stops playing.
The problem was not deleting some of the m2ts files but removing the regioncode from BD-J discs.
Removing the regioncode from none-BD-J discs the BD35 doesn't seem to care about.

So I ripped a BD without removing the regioncode, removed some of the unwanted m2ts files, burned the whole thing to a BD-RE and everything worked without a problem.

[MadMonkey57]

...The problem was not deleting some of the m2ts files but removing the regioncode from BD-J discs.
Removing the regioncode from none-BD-J discs the BD35 doesn't seem to care about...

Could that be a "sign" indicating an integrity check of some sort ??? Mmm... why doesn't it affect non BD-J discs then... maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction with this "integrity check" thing... :confused:

[rack04]

I just connected my BD35 and updated to firmware version 1.6. My results are as follows:

- applying fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF ... the BD35 plays for half a sec and stops

[MadMonkey57]

I just connected my BD35 and updated to firmware version 1.6. My results are as follows:

- applying fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF ... the BD35 plays for half a sec and stops

Considering Panasonic's changelog on firmware 1.6(US) and 1.2(EU), they seem to reflect the same level of bug fixing... which may be confirmed by both our experiences on applying fixclpi...

By the way, I'm still in the process of encoding of few more movies to perform tests proposed by n0mag!c (a couple of posts back)...

[azad]

I'm doing some more tests on this BD-J stuff now.

I compared the content of a original BD-J disc and a ripped disc with the regioncode removed by AnyDVD HD.
The only difference I could figure out is that AnyDVD hooks its own Java class to some manifest and signature files in the Java part of the disc.
Maybe that is something the the BD35 is looking for, or at least is stumbling about.

[MadMonkey57]

- tried fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF + INDX0100/MOBJ0100/MPLS0100/HDMV0100 + CERTIFICATE/BACKUP (empty) as produced by tsmuxer --> failed
- tried fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF + INDX0200/MOBJ0200/MPLS0200/HDMV0200 + CERTIFICATE/BACKUP (empty) as produced by tsmuxer --> failed
- tried fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF + INDX0100/MOBJ0100/MPLS0100/HDMV0100 + No CERTIFICATE folder --> failed
- tried fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF + INDX0200/MOBJ0200/MPLS0200/HDMV0200 + No CERTIFICATE folder --> failed

Still doing some more tests...

[MadMonkey57]

- adobe encore CS4 output minus id.bdmv in CERTIFICATE and CERTIFICATE/BACKUP --> "INCOMPATIBLE DISC"
- tsmuxer without fixclpi but a slight change in the commands (with BDEdit) --> works : once again, it makes me doubt my integrity checking assumption...

[azad]

After some tests I found the files and certificate which bring the BD35 in trouble while playing BD's containing BD-J stuff.

The BD35 doesn't seem to like the jar files where slysoft included its own javaclass and the certificate that is written in the certificate folder while backing up the original BD when regioncode removing is activated.

For testing purposes I did copy the untouched jars from the original BD to the backup folder and replaced the certificate with a certificate generated while backing up another BD without regioncode removing.
Then I burned the whole stuff on a BD-RE and it worked.

[MadMonkey57]

At last, a bit of success with the BD35 !

I've managed to use the SetStream command to force on an subtitle stream.

I've been playing around with BDEdit a lot lately, and there's a logic with tsmuxer's output I don't understand.
In a typical tsmuxer output, the "First Playback" is the interactive Movie Object #2. This object performs a few initializations (commands #0 to #3) and then "Jumps" to Title #0... But there ain't no Title #0... but only a Title #1... In addition, this Title #1 is used by Movie Object #0 and #1... At first, I tried to change this "Jump Title #0" to "Jump Title #1" and guess what (you're not gonna believe me, I know it...)? If my movie has exactly 1 subtitle, it is forced ON. If my movie has more than 1 (experimented only with 3), none of them are forced on.

Considering this highly unexpected behaviour, I decided to strip almost everything out of MovieObject.bdmv and patch index.bdmv to keep both of them as simple as possible. I set 0 for "First Playback" and "Top Menu" in index.bdmv, and chose "Movie" in the drop down box. I deleted Movie Objects #1 and #2, deleted all commands from Movie Object #0 and addded only 2 commands :
- a "SetStream" command to force an audio stream (if more than one) and force one of the subtitles (i.e SetStream 2147598338,0 for 1st audio stream and 2nd subtitle ON)
- a "Play" command to play the only playlist #0 (Play PL 0)

And this works as expected in the BD35 ! (tested on 3 movies, and F-FORW/REW and chapter seeking still OK)

Furthermore, you can get rid of the SetStream command if you don't need to force any audio or subtitle... It works fine as well !

Apart from a new working functionality, what do I conclude of all this ? Well, the "SetStream" command works inside the simple index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv whereas it doesn't work inside tsmuxer's typical index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv... Could that be some kind of a corruption in tsmuxer's output (considering the existence of fixclpi, there seem to be one in the *.clpi files, so why not in index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv then ??? On the other hand, fixclpi has always been rejected by the BD35... this is so weird...) ? Well, it could as well be a silly firmware, we can't rule this out...

I'll try some more BDEdit fun... I now want my Adobe Encore CS4 output to play...

EDIT : See post #22 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229423#post1229423) for more info and a step by step guide.

[MadMonkey57]

After some tests I found the files and certificate which bring the BD35 in trouble while playing BD's containing BD-J stuff.

The BD35 doesn't seem to like the jar files where slysoft included its own javaclass and the certificate that is written in the certificate folder while backing up the original BD when regioncode removing is activated.

For testing purposes I did copy the untouched jars from the original BD to the backup folder and replaced the certificate with a certificate generated while backing up another BD without regioncode removing.
Then I burned the whole stuff on a BD-RE and it worked.

What a stretch !!! But still a nice find !!

[G_M_C]

At last, a bit of success with the BD35 !

I've managed to use the SetStream command to force on an subtitle stream.

I've been playing around with BDEdit a lot lately, and there's a logic with tsmuxer's output I don't understand.
In a typical tsmuxer output, the "First Playback" is the interactive Movie Object #2. This object performs a few initializations (commands #0 to #3) and then "Jumps" to Title #0... But there ain't no Title #0... but only a Title #1... In addition, this Title #1 is used by Movie Object #0 and #1... At first, I tried to change this "Jump Title #0" to "Jump Title #1" and guess what (you're not gonna believe me, I know it...)? If my movie has exactly 1 subtitle, it is forced ON. If my movie has more than 1 (experimented only with 3), none of them are forced on.

Considering this highly unexpected behaviour, I decided to strip almost everything out of MovieObject.bdmv and patch index.bdmv to keep both of them as simple as possible. I set 0 for "First Playback" and "Top Menu" in index.bdmv, and chose "Movie" in the drop down box. I deleted Movie Objects #1 and #2, deleted all commands from Movie Object #0 and addded only 2 commands :
- a "SetStream" command to force an audio stream (if more than one) and force one of the subtitles (i.e SetStream 2147598338,0 for 1st audio stream and 2nd subtitle ON)
- a "Play" command to play the only playlist #0 (Play PL 0)

And this works as expected in the BD35 ! (tested on 3 movies, and F-FORW/REW and chapter seeking still OK)

Furthermore, you can get rid of the SetStream command if you don't need to force any audio or subtitle... It works fine as well !

Apart from a new working functionality, what do I conclude of all this ? Well, the "SetStream" command works inside the simple index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv whereas it doesn't work inside tsmuxer's typical index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv... Could that be some kind of a corruption in tsmuxer's output (considering the existence of fixclpi, there seem to be one in the *.clpi files, so why not in index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv then ??? On the other hand, fixclpi has always been rejected by the BD35... this is so weird...) ? Well, it could as well be a silly firmware, we can't rule this out...

I'll try some more BDEdit fun... I now want my Adobe Encore CS4 output to play...

That's cool !

Could you make for me a step-by-step rundown of the things you edit (cause i'm no expert at all on BDEdit ;) ) ? Please use a 1-movie, 1 subtitle, 1 audio-stream as example. I can use your explination as practice to get to know the procedure, so i get to understand it (and can "step up" to multiple audio/sub-stream stuff).

[vmrsss]

As the BD35 plays divx, I suppose it reads DVDs containing files in some MP4 or TS container, doesn't it? Has anybody tried to put h264 HD video streams and, say, AC3 in in those streams?

[MadMonkey57]

That's cool !

Could you make for me a step-by-step rundown of the things you edit (cause i'm no expert at all on BDEdit ;) ) ? Please use a 1-movie, 1 subtitle, 1 audio-stream as example. I can use your explination as practice to get to know the procedure, so i get to understand it (and can "step up" to multiple audio/sub-stream stuff).

All right, I'll try to keep it as simple as possible.
Please note that right now I can't actually run the tools and check the accuracy of this guide (well.. I am currently at work...).

Input : A main movie only BD structure (tsmuxer's Blu Ray output) with 1 video stream, 1 audio stream, 1 subtitle stream.
Output : a "stripped down to the minimum" version of the "logical" structure of the BD (by that, I mean 1 title, 1 movie object with 2 commands).
Tools : tsmuxer 1.8.8(b), BDEdit 0.17b
More info on the logical specs : The Authoritative BD FAQ: II. Physical, Logical, and Application Specifications (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397)

Most particularly Figure II-3: Simplified Organizational Structure of BD- ROM AV Format

http://www.emedialive.com/images/default.aspx?imageid=5333

All right, let's get on with the little guide now...

1/ Launch BDEdit and open your BD output

A little description of what we see here. The left pane basically reflects the content of index.bdmv while the right one reflects the content of MovieObject.bdmv.

Let's start with the left pane.

The "First Playback" points to "Interactive" and "2" --> "When the disc is inserted, start the interactive movie object #2".
The "Top Menu" points to "1" --> "When top menu button is pressed, start the movie object #1".
I don't know the reason why the movie type (interactive or movie) is specified for the "First Playback" action only and not for the "Top Menu" action... It's not that important for what we are achieving right now.
In the table below, there is a single line which represents the only Title in the BD. It is Title #1 that points to movie object #0 (OID #0 at the end of the row).

So we have our 3 values of the index table (see chart above). They refer to movie objects #0, #1 et #2. Let's move to the right pane...

In the first table above, we see 3 rows, our 3 movie objects. Each of them run its own set of commands. Try to select the rows one after another. You'll see the related commands in the bottom table. The commands are low level actions similar to assembly language instructions. They are used for instance to move values in and out of internal registers, to perform basic comparisons and branching, to play a Playlist, ...


2/ Altering the index table (that is index.bdmv, that is left pane)

We'll alter the index table so that the 3 entries (First Playback, Top Menu, Title #1) refer to a single movie object #0.
Let the "First Playback" point to "Movie" (Movie object type, list box) and "0" (Movie object #, list box).
Let the "Top Menu" point to "0" (Movie object #, list box).
Leave the Title list unchanged as the only Title (#1) already points to movie object #0.


3/ Altering the movie objects (that is MovieObject.bdmv, that is right pane)

A little warning about manipulating the tables and buttons in the right pane... BDEdit is a little buggy there... Make sure to "Save" (Window Bottom left) then "Read" (Window Top Right) from time to time to know the real content of MovieObject.bdmv, especially commands...

At first, let's get rid of movie objects #1 and #2. Select movie objects #2 (third row) in the top table and click the "minus" button on the right.
Repeat the same action with movie object #1 (second row). There's only movie object #0 left then. Make sure it is selected. You should see its commands in the bottom table. Select those commands one after another and delete them with the "minus" button on the right... until there are only 2 commands left. Make sure to "Save" and "Read" at that point, because there's one BDEdit glitch I was mentioning before... If I remember correctly, there's actually 1 command left... That's no problem, use the "plus" button on the right to add a second command.

Now, we are going to edit both commands. Select the first one, then use the command editing area at the very bottom of right pane to edit this command and choose "Set", "SetSystem", "SetStream", tick both checkboxes and choose "imm" in both listboxes. Enter 49153 in the top box and Enter 0 in the bottom one. The command should show "SetStream 49153, 0". Now select the second command and choose "Branch", "Play", "Play PL", tick the top checkbox, untick the bottom checkbox. Choose "imm" in the top listbox. Enter 0 in the top box. The command should show "Play PL 0". BDEdit might show an error message in red in the command editing area. Don't pay attention to it, it's another glitch here... Do a "Save" and "Read" again, just to make sure both commands are what they should be.

Save and Exit BDEdit.


4/ Final steps

Go to your BD file structure. Notice BDEdit's backup files (index.bdmv.backup and MovieObject.bdmv.backup). Delete them. Also make sure to copy the newly generated index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv over to BACKUP dir.


That's it, you're done ! Burn and enjoy !!

Let me know how it goes...

[MadMonkey57]

As the BD35 plays divx, I suppose it reads DVDs containing files in some MP4 or TS container, doesn't it? Has anybody tried to put h264 HD video streams and, say, AC3 in in those streams?

Sorry, never tried MP4 / TS / MKV or other containers... I think i saw (somewhere) reports saying that only non HD divx worked, in AVI I presume, ...

[deank]

I've been playing around with BDEdit a lot lately, and there's a logic with tsmuxer's output I don't understand.
In a typical tsmuxer output, the "First Playback" is the interactive Movie Object #2. This object performs a few initializations (commands #0 to #3) and then "Jumps" to Title #0... But there ain't no Title #0... but only a Title #1... In addition, this Title #1 is used by Movie Object #0 and #1..

Just to clarify something... the logic you don't understand...

http://www.deanbg.com/bdedit.jpg

Title #0 is you TOP menu.
In the screenshot case (the one my program generates) the logic is:

1) First play is 21, so player executes program No:21 (top movieobject.bdmv)
2) prog#21 initializes some registers and jumps to TITLE#0
3) Title #0 has program id#20 (you can see it at TOP MENU dropdown on the top left)
4) program id#20 usualy is top-menu buttons and stuff...
...
Most titles' programs finish with jumping to title #0 on finish, i.e. back to top menu.
That's why you see Jump to Title#0 in every program segment.
if you change the jump to the next title# then you'll have sequental playback of all titles

[MadMonkey57]

...Title #0 is you TOP menu...

Thanks for the tip ! :thanks:

[Skilgannon]

Don't know if this will help, but I followed the authors instructions and I got an Encore CS4 BDMV project burnt to DVD -R with menus and multiple titles to play perfectly on a UK Panasonic BD-30 player with the latest firmware, and a UK Samsung BD-P1500 with firmware version 1.3.
"http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15285018#post15285018"

[MadMonkey57]

Don't know if this will help, but I followed the authors instructions and I got an Encore CS4 BDMV project burnt to DVD -R with menus and multiple titles to play perfectly on a UK Panasonic BD-30 player with the latest firmware, and a UK Samsung BD-P1500 with firmware version 1.3.
"http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15285018#post15285018"

Well, Skilgannon, this whole thread seems very interesting... And so does this tool they're talking about... I need to do some reading (more than 1700 posts to browse through...) ... some understanding... some testing... and hopefully some reporting !

But it sure looks damn promising !

Thanks buddy ! :thanks:

[MadMonkey57]

Well, I've read very interesting bits of this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815296) and here's a quick summary as well as the conclusions that can be drawn regarding the BD35's ability to play BD5/9s.

For the sake of consitency, some terminology first :
- BD5/9 : a BD compliant structure on red laser DVD5/DVD9 (and there is an official standard (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iii) for this)
- AVCHD : an AVCHD compliant structure on red laser DVD5/DVD9 (and there is an official standard (http://www.avchd-info.org) for this too). For short, AVCHD is a stripped-down version of BD specs (no menus, no subtitles, limited video and audio features, ...)

tsmuxer's blu ray output basically is :
- a M2TS file (the movie itself)
- a CLPI file (the movie clip, part of BD logical organisation (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229423#post1229423), referencing the M2TS file)
- a MPLS file (the playlist, part of BD logical organisation, referencing the CLPI file)
- a index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv (the index and movie objects table, part of BD logical organisation)

The multiplexing into a BD compliant M2TS file and the building of BD compliant CLPI and MPLS files are actually performed by tsmuxer whereas index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv basically are extracts of a typical AVCHD output from Nero Vision. Therefore, tsmuxer's output is hybrid AVCHD/BD. An AVCHD compliant BD player (like the BD35) "sees" an AVCHD disc and therefore accepts to play it, even though the actual movie is not AVCHD compliant but BD compliant. That's the beauty of the trick. You get access to most of the features of BD for your own creations on red laser DVDs !

All of this is consistent with what we have achieved so far with the BD35, that is playing tsmuxer's output (works even with some BDEdit customization (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1228707#post1228707)).

So why does the BD35 reject the content authored by some commercial software like Adobe Encore CS4 (and others (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11425#ixp)) ? Because those generate a whole BD compliant structure, including index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv. The BD35 doesn't "see" an AVCHD disc and then rejects it.

So what can we do then ??? Well, a guy named wirepole who runs a chinese (AFAICT) blog here (http://wirepole.spaces.live.com) created a program called AVCHD-Patcher (current version 1.05). This handy piece of software turns a BD compliant index.bdmv to an AVCHD compliant index.bdmv. And that is the most important part of the whole procedure written by alluringreality (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15285018#post15285018) to turn a BD structure to a hybrid AVCHD/BD structure.

I haven't tested that out yet (dough !) but I have read reports saying that it works with almost every SAP including the BD35.

EDIT: Tested successfully with Adobe Encore CS4
EDIT 2: See this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1236812#post1236812) for a comparison of index.bdmv from Adobe Encore CS4 / Adobe Encore CS4 Patched with AVCHD Patcher / tsmuxer output

[rack04]

So it's still a mystery why the BD35 will not play Blu-ray output from tsMuxeR with fixclpi and compliant Blu-ray output from professional authoring programs?

[MadMonkey57]

So it's still a mystery why the BD35 will not play Blu-ray output from tsMuxeR with fixclpi and compliant Blu-ray output from professional authoring programs?

fixclpi is supposed to fix a bug in CLPI file generated by tsmuxer. The thing is this bug affects people very randomly. Some people complain that F-FORW/REW and chapter seeking doesn't work without fixclpi, some other people don't notice a difference with or without fixclpi, and some others (like us BD35 owners) on the contrary can't apply fixclpi at all as it completely breaks playability... I admit this is very odd... AFAIK even jdobbs (fixclpi author) doesn't understand (yet) this strange behaviour.

Regarding your concern about professional authoring programs, the output they generate is supposed to be burnt on (blu laser) BD discs and not (red laser) DVD discs... That's the reason why the hybrid AVCHD/BR trick is needed.

[rack04]

fixclpi is supposed to fix a bug in CLPI file generated by tsmuxer. The thing is this bug affects people very randomly. Some people complain that F-FORW/REW and chapter seeking doesn't work without fixclpi, some other people don't notice a difference with or without fixclpi, and some others (like us BD35 owners) on the contrary can't apply fixclpi at all as it completely breaks playability... I admit this is very odd... AFAIK even jdobbs (fixclpi author) doesn't understand (yet) this strange behaviour.

Regarding your concern about professional authoring programs, the output they generate is supposed to be burnt on (blu laser) BD discs and not (red laser) DVD discs... That's the reason why the hybrid AVCHD/BR trick is needed.

That makes sense. Thanks for the explaination.

[rack04]

I was reading through the BD35 specifications and found the following playable disc notes:

BD-ROM

Version 2

BD-RE

Version 3 (Single Layer, Dual Layer), JPEG*6

BD-R

Version 2 (Single Layer, Dual Layer)

DVD-RAM

DVD Video Recording format, AVCHD format*8,
JPEG*4

DVD-R/DVD-R DL

DVD-Video format*1
DVD-Video Recording format*1
AVCHD format*1*8
DivX*7

DVD-RW

DVD-Video format*1
DVD-Video Recording format*1
AVCHD format*1*8

DVD+R/DVD+R DL/DVD+RW
DVD-Video format*1
AVCHD format*1*8

*1 Finalizing is necessary

*4 The total combined maximum number of recognizable picture
contents and folders: 3000 picture contents and 300 folders.

*6 The total combined maximum number of recognizable picture
contents and folders: 9999 picture contents and 300 folders.

*8 AVCHD format V1.0

Could it be that the current players don't support BD-5/9?

[laserfan]

Could it be that the current players don't support BD-5/9?Somewhere else here I linked to a poster over at AVSForum "Insiders" area that BD players were NEVER MEANT to play recordable media of ANY kind (not just DVD5/9 but even BD-R). That most player firmware allowed it in order to be able to play genned-up discs for trade shows & whatnot, but only as a temporary matter until the format got a toe-hold in the market & took off. This guy suggested mfrs might start removing the ability to read these discs, and at least the LG BH200 lost such ability going from April to June firmware.

If you remember that there was an effort way-back-when to limit CD Music playback to only certain types of media, you can imagine the above being attempted again.

In any case it seems some players play 'em, some players don't, some used-to but don't anymore, and nobody seems to know for sure WHAT the deal is re: playback of BD files on red-laser discs (except of course that the industry absolutely HATES IT that anybody at all is able to make backup copies of their products, and then play them back on a stb player).

[MadMonkey57]

I was reading through the BD35 specifications and found the following playable disc notes:

BD-ROM

Version 2

BD-RE

Version 3 (Single Layer, Dual Layer), JPEG*6

BD-R

Version 2 (Single Layer, Dual Layer)

DVD-RAM

DVD Video Recording format, AVCHD format*8,
JPEG*4

DVD-R/DVD-R DL

DVD-Video format*1
DVD-Video Recording format*1
AVCHD format*1*8
DivX*7

DVD-RW

DVD-Video format*1
DVD-Video Recording format*1
AVCHD format*1*8

DVD+R/DVD+R DL/DVD+RW
DVD-Video format*1
AVCHD format*1*8

*1 Finalizing is necessary

*4 The total combined maximum number of recognizable picture
contents and folders: 3000 picture contents and 300 folders.

*6 The total combined maximum number of recognizable picture
contents and folders: 9999 picture contents and 300 folders.

*8 AVCHD format V1.0

Could it be that the current players don't support BD-5/9?


I have never heard of any SAP spec claiming it could read BD5/9...

As you can see, AVCHD is well supported by the BD35 which is actually a good thing regarding our quest for hybrid AVCHD/BR playability.

[MadMonkey57]

... BD players were NEVER MEANT to play recordable media of ANY kind (not just DVD5/9 but even BD-R)...

Well the specs of the BD35 seem to disagree with that...

... That most player firmware allowed it in order to be able to play genned-up discs for trade shows & whatnot, but only as a temporary matter until the format got a toe-hold in the market & took off. This guy suggested mfrs might start removing the ability to read these discs, and at least the LG BH200 lost such ability going from April to June firmware...

I would certainly not rule this out...

... In any case it seems some players play 'em, some players don't, some used-to but don't anymore, and nobody seems to know for sure WHAT the deal is re: playback of BD files on red-laser discs...

That's the reason why a created this thread... :)

[MadMonkey57]

Just a quick post to report a success in playing Adobe Encore CS4's output (1 main menu, 9 movies) on red laser DVD with the use of AVCHD Patcher !!!

See this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828) for all the details.

[rack04]

As you can see, AVCHD is well supported by the BD35 which is actually a good thing regarding our quest for hybrid AVCHD/BR playability.

I wouldn't say it's my quest for hybrid AVCHD/BD playability. I'd rather have BD playability. jdobbs mentioned that BD Rebuilder uses the index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv from the original disc. Wouldn't this mean that these discs are BD playability?

[MadMonkey57]

I wouldn't say it's my quest for hybrid AVCHD/BD playability. I'd rather have BD playability. jdobbs mentioned that BD Rebuilder uses the index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv from the original disc. Wouldn't this mean that these discs are BD playability?

The index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv from the original BD are BD compliant but not AVCHD compliant. The BD35 refuses to play BD compliant index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv on red laser DVD. At the moment, we have no other option but going for hybrid AVCHD/BD to play on the BD35. The other option would be a new firmware that is a bit more... tolerant.

[jamos]

Panasonic BD players should play AVCHD disks, have you tried TSMuxer with a complient BD Video stream (720p,1080i, 1080p) to create a BD structure and burn that to DVD with udf 2.5 format just to test that the player can play a AVCHD disk?

[rack04]

Panasonic BD players should play AVCHD disks, have you tried TSMuxer with a complient BD Video stream (720p,1080i, 1080p) to create a BD structure and burn that to DVD with udf 2.5 format just to test that the player can play a AVCHD disk?

Please read through the thread.

[MadMonkey57]

@rack04, G_M_C and others,
Any feedback on your side from what we've found out so far ?

By the way, I have another thing that bothers me with these encodes on red laser DVD. None of them play @24p. I suspect several possible reasons :
- can x264 handle it thru specific (combination of) settings ?
- or can x264 handle it at all ?
- nothing to do with x264... does it depend on the movie fps ? (24000/1001, 24)
- nothing to do with all of this... can the multiplexing be responsible for this ?
- not at all.. can it be a side effect of the AVCHD/BD approach ?

The latter is my favorite. :)

EDIT : Please see post #44 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1231156#post1231156) to see what I mean by "None of them play @24p"

[rack04]

I just finished tested a AVCHD/BD on DVD-9 using the following x264 command line:

"%x264_PATH%" --pass 2 --bitrate %DESIRED_BITRATE% --stats "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%OUTPUT_FILENAME%.stats" --level 4.1 --keyint 24
--min-keyint 1 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --b-pyramid --weightb --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --subme 7 --trellis 2
--partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --vbv-maxrate 24000 --qcomp 0.5 --me umh --merange 24 --threads auto
--thread-input --sar 1:1 --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%OUTPUT_FILENAME%-output.h264"
"%INPUT_VIDEO%" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd

This disc plays fine without using fixclpi and is unplayable when I use fixclpi. Though, the ff/rew is a litte unresponsive.

[MadMonkey57]

...Though, the ff/rew is a litte unresponsive...

It may come from your high vbv settings... just an assumption...

[MadMonkey57]

@rack04, G_M_C and others,
Any feedback on your side from what we've found out so far ?

By the way, I have another thing that bothers me with these encodes on red laser DVD. None of them play @24p. I suspect several possible reasons :
- can x264 handle it thru specific (combination of) settings ?
- or can x264 handle it at all ?
- nothing to do with x264... does it depend on the movie fps ? (24000/1001, 24)
- nothing to do with all of this... can the multiplexing be responsible for this ?
- not at all.. can it be a side effect of the AVCHD/BD approach ?

The latter is my favorite. :)

This post is so awkward :eek: it requires a major update. When I'm saying "24p", i'm talking about this feature you find in LCDs and SAPs. Sony calls it "24p True Cinema". I think Panasonic refers to it as "24p playback". It is the ability to "view" the movie at exactly 24 frames per second, LCD refreshes 24 (maybe 48 or 72) frames per second (no 50/60fps), SAP throws exactly 24 frames untouched... It should prevent judder effects.

Hope it clears the confusion...

[rack04]

This post is so awkward :eek: it requires a major update. When I'm saying "24p", i'm talking about this feature you find in LCDs and SAPs. Sony calls it "24p True Cinema". I think Panasonic refers to it as "24p playback". It is the ability to "view" the movie at exactly 24 frames per second, LCD refreshes 24 (maybe 48 or 72) frames per second (no 50/60fps), SAP throws exactly 24 frames untouched... It should prevent judder effects.

Hope it clears the confusion...

My display isn't capable of 24 fps so I wont be of much help.

[laserfan]

I just finished tested a AVCHD/BD on DVD-9 using the following x264 command line:

"%x264_PATH%" --pass 2 --bitrate %DESIRED_BITRATE% --stats "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%OUTPUT_FILENAME%.stats" --level 4.1 --keyint 24
--min-keyint 1 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --b-pyramid --weightb --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --subme 7 --trellis 2
--partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --vbv-maxrate 24000 --qcomp 0.5 --me umh --merange 24 --threads auto
--thread-input --sar 1:1 --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%OUTPUT_FILENAME%-output.h264"
"%INPUT_VIDEO%" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd

This disc plays fine without using fixclpi and is unplayable when I use fixclpi. Though, the ff/rew is a litte unresponsive.
But the clpi file is not generated by x264. What are you using (and version) to mux to DVD-9. If tsMuxeR what is your meta file...

[rack04]

But the clpi file is not generated by x264. What are you using (and version) to mux to DVD-9. If tsMuxeR what is your meta file...

Yes I used tsMuxeR 1.8.8(b).

MUXOPT --no-pcr-on-video-pid --new-audio-pes --blu-ray --vbr --auto-chapters=5 --vbv-len=500
V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC, "F:\Blu-ray\Transformers-muxed.mkv", fps=23.976, insertSEI, contSPS, track=1, lang=eng
A_AC3, "F:\Blu-ray\Transformers-muxed.mkv", track=2, lang=eng

[rack04]

It may come from your high vbv settings... just an assumption...

Actually, I think I was incorrect. It turns out even the retail disc has this "unresponsive" behavior with ff/rew. I just got the player so I'm not used to it.

BTW, from what I've read these settings are not "high".

[MadMonkey57]

Actually, I think I was incorrect. It turns out even the retail disc has this "unresponsive" behavior with ff/rew. I just got the player so I'm not used to it.

BTW, from what I've read these settings are not "high".

You're probably right, I'm not "up to date" on this topic...
I thought we ought to stick to AVCHD specs, that is +/- 18mbps for video/audio/subs... Would you mind tell me the latest findings ?

[rack04]

You're probably right, I'm not "up to date" on this topic...
I thought we ought to stick to AVCHD specs, that is +/- 18mbps for video/audio/subs... Would you mind tell me the latest findings ?

Here is some info that I collected.

- Now x264 have really better vbv support. Set simply max bitrate at 3x your max bitrate (it's enought in vaste majority of case) with 24 Mbps limit for BD9 (you must mux audio too ... DVD3x is for complete video/audio/sub mux and m2ts mux is not really optimal).

- GOP must be at 1 sec if you use max bitrate > 15 Mbps and 2 sec for max bitrate < 15 Mbps (24 or 48 frames for 1080p24).

For DVD3x the max bitrate is 30.24 Mbps. With 24 Mbps for video you have 6.24 Mbps for other stream (PCM, DD, DTS, TrueHD and subtitles). I use 640kbps AC3 so this gives me a little wiggle room.

[alluringreality]

By the way, I have another thing that bothers me with these encodes on red laser DVD. None of them play @24p.

This has been reported with our AVS HD 709 disk on the BD35. I think it's an issue with that single player. As far as I know other players correctly output 24p from AVCHD. My BDP-S1 has no issue outputting 24p from AVCHD. tsMuxer seems to basically be an AVCHD file structure by comparison to Nero's AVCHD output.

[MadMonkey57]

This has been reported with our AVS HD 709 disk on the BD35. I think it's an issue with that single player. As far as I know other players correctly output 24p from AVCHD. My BDP-S1 has no issue outputting 24p from AVCHD...

Please Mr Panasonic, how about a more tolerant firmware in 2009 ?

... tsMuxer seems to basically be an AVCHD file structure by comparison to Nero's AVCHD output.

Yeah. Thanks to your explanations in avsforum, I posted the info in this thread a few posts above (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828).

[MadMonkey57]

...For DVD3x the max bitrate is 30.24 Mbps. With 24 Mbps for video you have 6.24 Mbps for other stream (PCM, DD, DTS, TrueHD and subtitles). I use 640kbps AC3 so this gives me a little wiggle room.

Mmm.. I think differently (I don't mean I am right). The BD35 and many other SAPs out there seem to play hybrid AVCHD/BD on red laser, but not BD on red laser. Thus I prefer to stick to AVCHD specs that say 18mbps for system streams (my assumption is audio/video/subs/m2ts overhead). 18mbps is much closer to DVD2x. I would probably use DVD3x if my SAP could play BD5/9s...

I suspect a red laser DVD could spin at DVDx2 in my SAP. At least, I assume this way in order to ensure max compatibility.

18mbps - 6% (m2ts overhead) = 16920 bps

That leaves me with 16920 for audio/video/subs... That's why I go 15000bps for vbv. I have room for 2 audio streams (640 kbits each) and 2 or 3 subs.

[kento]

Hello everybody ,
I was thinking , would it be interesting to open a brand new thread about the BD35 using backup copy on BD-RE (single ou double layer) ?
It seems it's not so easy to do.

[laserfan]

Yes I used tsMuxeR 1.8.8(b).

MUXOPT --no-pcr-on-video-pid --new-audio-pes --blu-ray --vbr --auto-chapters=5 --vbv-len=500
V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC, "F:\Blu-ray\Transformers-muxed.mkv", fps=23.976, insertSEI, contSPS, track=1, lang=eng
A_AC3, "F:\Blu-ray\Transformers-muxed.mkv", track=2, lang=engRegarding your use of fixclpi and the result failing, I'm not familiar with how-or-why you got from .264 (output of x264) and .ac3 (audio track) to .mkv's in both cases. Maybe tsMuxeR is having some kind of problem with those, and fixclpi fails as a result.

[MadMonkey57]

Hello everybody ,
I was thinking , would it be interesting to open a brand new thread about the BD35 using backup copy on BD-RE (single ou double layer) ?
It seems it's not so easy to do.

Yeah, why not... I wouldn't be of much help though coz I don't own a BD burner...

[MadMonkey57]

Regarding your use of fixclpi and the result failing, I'm not familiar with how-or-why you got from .264 (output of x264) and .ac3 (audio track) to .mkv's in both cases. Maybe tsMuxeR is having some kind of problem with those, and fixclpi fails as a result.

Mmm... I never thought of this before. I do all my encodings with MEGui into an mkv... Thus my inputs for tsmuxer are 1 mkv for video and 1/+ ac3 for audio. I'll check this out.

[MadMonkey57]

Hello everybody ,
I was thinking , would it be interesting to open a brand new thread about the BD35 using backup copy on BD-RE (single ou double layer) ?
It seems it's not so easy to do.

btw, what are your problems ?

[rack04]

Regarding your use of fixclpi and the result failing, I'm not familiar with how-or-why you got from .264 (output of x264) and .ac3 (audio track) to .mkv's in both cases. Maybe tsMuxeR is having some kind of problem with those, and fixclpi fails as a result.

x264 outputs raw h264 and then I use eac3to to mux the raw h264 into mkv. I then use mkvmerge to mux the raw ac3 into the mkv file created by eac3to. I haven't checked to see whether or not there is a difference when using the raw h264 and ac3 with fixclpi. Since I don't have any DL RW media I probably wont be testing. Hopefully someone else can test and report back.

[laserfan]

I haven't checked to see whether or not there is a difference when using the raw h264 and ac3 with fixclpi.Well, one difference is that when fixclpi is applied to the output of tsMuxeR that used .264 and .ac3 files as input, the result works! That's why I wondered about using mkv files (still not sure why you take the mkvmerge step).

Again, I don't know that's the problem, but I have only found fixclpi to help, in assuring that the BD disc's custom chapter marks work properly. I guess it also helps w/FF and RW tho I rarely use these so dunno myself.

[rack04]

Well, one difference is that when fixclpi is applied to the output of tsMuxeR that used .264 and .ac3 files as input, the result works! That's why I wondered about using mkv files (still not sure why you take the mkvmerge step).

Again, I don't know that's the problem, but I have only found fixclpi to help, in assuring that the BD disc's custom chapter marks work properly. I guess it also helps w/FF and RW tho I rarely use these so dunno myself.

What SAP do you have? Also, do you apply fixclpi on the backup folder too?

[rack04]

Well, one difference is that when fixclpi is applied to the output of tsMuxeR that used .264 and .ac3 files as input, the result works! That's why I wondered about using mkv files (still not sure why you take the mkvmerge step).

Again, I don't know that's the problem, but I have only found fixclpi to help, in assuring that the BD disc's custom chapter marks work properly. I guess it also helps w/FF and RW tho I rarely use these so dunno myself.

Alright, I tried as you suggested. Using direct h264 and AC3 input to tsMuxer and applying fixclpi results in a unplayable disc. I think the next test is to try fix fixclipinf.

[laserfan]

What SAP do you have? Also, do you apply fixclpi on the backup folder too?I have an LG BH200; yeah I fixclpi both files in the BDMV. If I don't, my chapter marks are "off", sometimes by a minute or more!

Sorry I couldn't help...

[zibbyi]

Did someone try to use SDHD card? If so can it play DTS-HD Master and Dolby TrueHD?

[MadMonkey57]

For those interested, a little report on the BD35's (in)ability to play 50fps AVCHD/BD on red laser DVD.
720x576@50p is not working, 1280x720@50p is working (Reminder : The former is BD compliant only. The latter is AVCHD and BD compliant).

BTW, my video 1280x720@50p is stuttreing a bit... My x264 settings are probably not so good. I used MEGui Sharktooth's Blu Ray Profile customized with --vbv-bufsize 15000 -vbv-maxrate 15000 --keyint 50.

Are these settings any good for 50p ? (So far, all my encodings @23.976p have been encoded with --vbv-bufsize 15000 -vbv-maxrate 15000 --keyint 24 and working fine).

[n0mag!c]

Did you see this? (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1234539#post1234539)

[MadMonkey57]

Nope! Thanks.
I'm gonna make a few "High Profile@4.0 vs High Profile@4.1". The extra bitrates that High Profile@4.1 offers in comparison with High Profile@4.0 aren't needed with red laser DVD-5, not even for super high motion scenes IMO. Then no real quality sacrifices at stake.

[rack04]

Nope! Thanks.
I'm gonna make a few "High Profile@4.0 vs High Profile@4.1". The extra bitrates that High Profile@4.1 offers in comparison with High Profile@4.0 aren't needed with red laser DVD-5, not even for super high motion scenes IMO. Then no real quality sacrifices at stake.

Thanks for the testing. I hope we can get to the bottom of this.

[MadMonkey57]

Tried a first stream 1280x720x50p High Profile@4.0, perfectly smooth, no stuttering...

[rack04]

Tried a first stream 1280x720x50p High Profile@4.0, perfectly smooth, no stuttering...

That's good news. Any more test results?

[MadMonkey57]

Some of you might be wondering these days why their BD-RB full backups don't work on red laser DVD in the BD35 (and on some other SAPs as well).

Well, I can try to give an answer to this question. First, I want to outline that I have never used BD-RB myself. So maybe I'm not fully right, maybe I missed things... Nevertheless I have read posts explaining how BD-RB works, I have read posts from people reporting successful full backups on red laser DVD but unplayable on their SAPs including the BD35, I have investigated on a few sample files provided by a fellow Doom9 member (turbojet) and I have investigated on some of my own BDs and on those I authored myself.

So far, I have identified 3 reasons:


Reason #1: BD output doesn't play on red laser DVD

The BD35 doesn't play BD output on red laser DVD because it doesn't expect BD content on red laser DVD (side note: for the sake of simplicity, I will not debate over the BD-9 standard here...). But here is a workaround. Converting the BD output to an hybrid AVCHD/BD output (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828) (The BD35 is AVCHD compliant). This way, the BD35 is fooled, thinking it is dealing with an AVCHD and goes on playing the BD content. But there is a drawback here. As the BD35 switches to AVCHD mode, it is supposed to play AVCHD compliant content in the BD structure and may have trouble playing BD only content. Some BD only features play fine though (multiple audio, subtiltes, HDMV menus with embedded IG streams, ...), but some others don't (BD-J menus, HDMV menus with IG streams linked to an external M2TS via a so-called subpath mechanism, ...).


Reason #2: fixclpi is rejected by the BD35

fixclpi is a tool written by jdobbs (yep, him again!). It is part of BD-RB. It should improve the compliancy of clpi files generated by tsmuxer (within BD-RB also). Unfortunately, it breaks playability on the BD35. But there is a solution for this too. It is possible to configure BD-RB not to apply fixclpi (conf file I think, see BD-RB threads for details).


Resaon #3: Some types of menus don't work on red laser DVD

As stated above, some types of menu don't play on red laser DVD in the BD35:
- BD-J (Java) menus
- HDMV menus with IG streams linked to an external M2TS via a so-called subpath mechanism (some details here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1236681#post1236681))

Made simple, there are different ways of authoring menus for a BD. Those 2 are very common on commercial BDs and are not supported on red laser DVD by the BD35. AFAIK, there is no solution yet.

[G_M_C]

I'd be interested to see what happens if we make a BD-R/BD-RE structure (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iim), and put that on DVD. According to your theory it should not play (cause the player expects blu laser) but it would be an interesting expiriment. It can also be good to look into this structure for future developmet of tools that back-up to BD-R/RE.

[alluringreality]

I'd be interested to see what happens if we make a BD-R/BD-RE structure (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iim), and put that on DVD.

What that link goes to is usually termed BDAV for short. My understanding is that the format doesn't officially support menus, but http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11425#ixp lists programs that can do BDAV. I know for TotalMedia you have to write directly to Blu-ray writable media for BDAV, so I couldn't try it, but with BDMV or AVCHD they allow for writing to the hard disk. For BDAV in MovieFactory 6 it's sort of hard to find, you have to start the program with the launcher option, and again I can't try it because you have to write directly to BD-R or BD-RE and I don't have a Blu-ray drive in my computer. PowerProducer has a trial, but I never tried to look at BDAV with their software. As far as I can tell most home authoring software does a form of HDMV for intended writing to BD-R or BD-RE, but I haven't looked into anything outside home authoring solutions enough to have seen the IG streams item that was mentioned by MadMonkey57.

[G_M_C]

What that link goes to is usually termed BDAV for short. My understanding is that the format doesn't officially support menus, but http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11425#ixp lists programs that can do BDAV. I know for TotalMedia you have to write directly to Blu-ray writable media for BDAV, so I couldn't try it, but with BDMV or AVCHD they allow for writing to the hard disk. For BDAV in MovieFactory 6 it's sort of hard to find, you have to start the program with the launcher option, and again I can't try it because you have to write directly to BD-R or BD-RE and I don't have a Blu-ray drive in my computer. PowerProducer has a trial, but I never tried to look at BDAV with their software. As far as I can tell most home authoring software does a form of HDMV for intended writing to BD-R or BD-RE, but I haven't looked into anything outside home authoring solutions enough to have seen the IG streams item that was mentioned by MadMonkey57.

For what i understand, BDAV does menu's. The files menioned in the format description hint to that possiblility also.

[laserfan]

Some of you might be wondering these days why their BD-RB full backups don't work on red laser DVD in the BD35 (and on some other SAPs as well). Well, I can try to give an answer to this question....There is a fourth reason they won't play: some manufacturers are blocking it. Both BD-5/9 and AVCHD used to work on the LG BH200, and in a firmware update they removed the playback capability for either of these red laser types.

[MadMonkey57]

There is a fourth reason they won't play: some manufacturers are blocking it. Both BD-5/9 and AVCHD used to work on the LG BH200, and in a firmware update they removed the playback capability for either of these red laser types.

While this thread is a little specific to the BD35 which has a firmware not that restrictive atm, I understand your sadness/anger/rage about manufacturers purposely removing features from their firmware. BTW, I took a quick loook at the specs of the LG BH200 and I don't see any support for AVCHD... So it appears that previous feature was some sort of a bonus ... (I presume firmware downgrade is not possible in your case).

But still, all SAPs obviously have HW capable of playing AVCHD/BD5/BD9 so this whole story about what is playable and how to make unplayable things playable is highly dependent on firmware. From one version to another, rules could change, and SAPs could behave pretty randomly...

[turbojet]

As far as I know there's only two methods to attempt to fix the issue, maybe theres none.
1) Figure out why the difference between retail menus and menus all players tested seem to play just fine for example what multiavchd and jamat produce. Then either convert the retail menus to the other 'playable' format or at least make them appear to the player as a 'playable' format. This probably involves less work then the alternative but it could all easily be changed by future firmware too.
2) Hack the firmware to allow the same playback on red laser as there is on blue laser. This would probably be a big task especially keeping up with all the firmware updates. But it is something that couldn't be changed by a firmware update all of a sudden. Maybe if this can be done, a universal firmware patcher could be done to lessen the amount of work needed. This may also be a way to get region free BD playback.

[G_M_C]

I think i have solved part of the mysteries that concern my BD30. It might be te same for the BD35, so i give my explanation here.

My solution came to me after reading (and still not fully understanding ;) ) this thread: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1236552#post1236552

What became clear to me that for TS muxing --aud (access unit delimiters) are mandatory, so that probably goes for the m2ts we use in our BD9's. What i also understood that nal-hrd units can only be placed by the muxing programm, cause those "nal-hrd's" (whatever they are) partly depend of container you use; X264 cannot put them, cause the output of x264 has no container ... That also reminded me that i ALWAYS see txMuxeR report placing nal untis when muxing ....

So, i experimented and made 3 identical 8 minute streams;
1) where i left out both --aud and --nal-hrd from my commandline
2) where i only put --aud (left out --nal-hrd).
3) where i only put --nal-hrd (left out --aud).

I muxed the stream with tsMuxeR, no special settings, just add the stream and set the framerate without actually changing.

Option 1)
- It played on my BD30. But chapter-skipping / fforward+reverse did not work.
- Used AVCHD-me and used it to correct the reported filesize and apply fixclpi (what never worked on my bd30, it had the "just stop" problem). This one played :eek: ... fixcpli did not cause the "just stop" problem. But ... seeking / chapter-skipping still did not work :(

So i started on option 2 (only --aud used when encoding, NO --nal-hrd).
- Muxed straight through tsMuxer, the result played fine, but still no seeking / skipping :mad:

But here it comes;

Running this stream though AVCHDme, and applying the filesize and running fixclpi ... produced a completely working stream; Including seeking and skipping :)

I did not need to test option 3) since option 2 works as intended :cool:.

My guess is that the bd30 can somehow work with the nal-hrd units that are put in by x264, that's why it plays disks that are not treated with fixclpi. But when you add more of those units, and than apply fixclpi for instance, the player trips over the double amount of units that are in the stream (the ones put by x264, and that are probably not correct, and the ones put by tsMuxeR).

So my solution is: Dont use --nal-hrd, only --aud ;)

Please report if this works for the BD35 also, so (sorry mods) we can copy part of this post to BD-Rebuilders thread, since jdobbs might be interested too.

[MadMonkey57]

Thanks for this report G_M_C.
I'll report back.

[Digi]

I have a question i dont own the BD30/35 but i do own a Sony S350 anther AVCHD player, i have done quite a few trial backups with eac3to,ripbot and tsmuxer direct and most play but what i would like to know is why can i not get standard DTS to play on these backups especially pn DVD9's DD at 640kbps plays perfectly but when i do a dts rip i get picture and no audio.

Now the curious part if i change the settings on the 350 to allow the paler to encode audio to 2PCM the BD9's i did now play with audio but in 2ch PCM ??? why is this and why will the dolby digital bitstream @640kbps play but if i try to bitstream DTS its a no go.

If i understand correctly from the AVCHD structure only dolby digital is allowed in multi ch form and nothing else.

anyone tried a BD9 with dts on the BD30/35 and got it to play.

[G_M_C]

I have a question i dont own the BD30/35 but i do own a Sony S350 anther AVCHD player, i have done quite a few trial backups with eac3to,ripbot and tsmuxer direct and most play but what i would like to know is why can i not get standard DTS to play on these backups especially pn DVD9's DD at 640kbps plays perfectly but when i do a dts rip i get picture and no audio.

Now the curious part if i change the settings on the 350 to allow the paler to encode audio to 2PCM the BD9's i did now play with audio but in 2ch PCM ??? why is this and why will the dolby digital bitstream @640kbps play but if i try to bitstream DTS its a no go.

If i understand correctly from the AVCHD structure only dolby digital is allowed in multi ch form and nothing else.

anyone tried a BD9 with dts on the BD30/35 and got it to play.

Np on my bd30, even DTS-MA works :)

We had more problems with the video atm ;)

[Digi]

Np on my bd30, even DTS-MA works :)

We had more problems with the video atm ;)


G_M_C

Thanks for the reply i would obviously be curious how you author your discs for playback then, The Full HD Audio i would love to leave in but at the moment i can only get DD @640 to play

Thanks

[rack04]

Here is a comparison of the NAL HRD Info from Iron Man Blu-ray Disc using VBVChecker:

m2ts from disc:

---HRD INFO---

NAL HRD INFO:

cpb_cnt_minus1 = 0
bit_rate_scale = 1
cpb_size_scale = 3

bit_rate_value_minus1[0] = 308591 [39499776 bits/s]
cpb_size_value_minus1[0] = 234374 [30000000 bits]
cbr_flag[0] = 0

initial_cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1 = 17
cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1 = 17
dpb_output_delay_length_minus1 = 7
time_offset_length = 0

---END HRD INFO---

h264 stream extracted using eac3to:

---HRD INFO---

NAL HRD INFO:

cpb_cnt_minus1 = 0
bit_rate_scale = 1
cpb_size_scale = 3

bit_rate_value_minus1[0] = 308591 [39499776 bits/s]
cpb_size_value_minus1[0] = 234374 [30000000 bits]
cbr_flag[0] = 0

initial_cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1 = 17
cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1 = 17
dpb_output_delay_length_minus1 = 7
time_offset_length = 0

---END HRD INFO---

m2ts from tsMuxeR output:

---HRD INFO---

NAL HRD INFO:

cpb_cnt_minus1 = 0
bit_rate_scale = 1
cpb_size_scale = 3

bit_rate_value_minus1[0] = 308591 [39499776 bits/s]
cpb_size_value_minus1[0] = 234374 [30000000 bits]
cbr_flag[0] = 0

initial_cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1 = 17
cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1 = 17
dpb_output_delay_length_minus1 = 7
time_offset_length = 0

NAL HRD INFO:

cpb_cnt_minus1 = 0
bit_rate_scale = 1
cpb_size_scale = 3

bit_rate_value_minus1[0] = 308591 [39499776 bits/s]
cpb_size_value_minus1[0] = 234374 [30000000 bits]
cbr_flag[0] = 0

initial_cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1 = 17
cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1 = 17
dpb_output_delay_length_minus1 = 7
time_offset_length = 0

---END HRD INFO---

Looks like tsMuxeR duplicated to the NAL HRD Info. Wonder if this could cause problems.

[G_M_C]

Here is a comparison of the NAL HRD Info from Iron Man Blu-ray Disc using VBVChecker:

m2ts from disc:

[ ... ]

Looks like tsMuxeR duplicated to the NAL HRD Info. Wonder if this could cause problems.

I dont have neuron2's tool, can you test with a stream that you encode with just the --aud option (so no --nal-hrd !), and see what tsMuxeR makes of it ? Cause i did more tests, and the result seem unpredictable; So my solution might not be the correct one.

I think we need a muxer that properly places the nal-hrd info.

[Digi]

Np on my bd30, even DTS-MA works :)

We had more problems with the video atm ;)


I have found the solution as to why my S350 will not play authored AVCHD DVD5/9's with DTS its the firmware i am running the latest .010 version where as my friend has the original .009 on his S350 and the discs with DTS playback fine on his player.

My advice to people with Sony BDP-S350 if you want to play authored BD DVD5/9 with DTS audio do not upgrade your player as sony appear to have broken the DTS audio on the latest firmware, Dolby Digital @ 640kbps plays back fine.

[deank]

DTS is not part of AVCHD standard and probably it is the reason they removed it.

[Digi]

DTS is not part of AVCHD standard and probably it is the reason they removed it.


Did a few tests today and got the DTS to work you are correct it is not part of the spec but the Sony S350 will not play a DTS AVCHD soundtrack through the HDMI output but it will play the DTS soundtrack on an AVCHD encoded disc through either the optical or coaxial connection.

Looks to me that sonys firmware broke just the DTS playback on AVCHD through the HDMIand nothing else:D

[deank]

This reminds me to test if Playstation3 behaves the same way. I have it connected via optical and DTS in AVCHD works perfect. I'll switch to HDMI to see what will happen.

[MadMonkey57]

...So my solution is: Dont use --nal-hrd, only --aud ;)...

Thanks for this report G_M_C.
I'll report back.

Tried the following scenarios WITHOUT fixclpi:

--nad-hrd & --aud: works, f-forw/rew & chapter seeking OK
--nad-hrd : works, f-forw/rew & chapter seeking OK :confused:
--aud : works, f-forw/rew & chapter seeking OK
None of both switches : works, f-forw/rew & chapter seeking BROKEN


Tried the same scenarios WITH fixclpi: all of them showed the "stop" effect :mad:

[alc0re]

@MadMonkey

2 things.

One is a request for a step by step guide like you posted on how to force subs on using BDEdit, but for a bluray structured output from tsmuxer with 2 subtitles (instead of just one.) I'm going to be muxing some blurays with 1 english regular subs track and 1 english forced subs track (foreign language spoken parts of a given movie), and I would love it if I could force the "forced" subs track on instead of "burning" the forced track into the movie @ encoding time. Also, through BDEdit, how do I tell which of the 2 subtitle tracks in the bluray/avchd structure is the one I want on by default?

Second : I noticed your question about the BD35 not being able to playback your BD9s with your tv's 24 fps feature. I then noticed a post with a link of a previous post I had with experimenting with a stuttering issue I had, which I think could relate to your tv 24 fps issue. Here's some more updated information on those experiments from my other post. I had a really bad stuttering issue when I first started backing up my blurays to BD9s. I thought I fully fixed the issue (as my other post stated) by changing the level from 4.1 to 4.0. Here's the thing though...I actually still noticed a stutter, although not as bad. What always bothered me was that when I used eac3to to check the structure of an original bluray structure (non x264 transcoded/non tsmuxer bluray muxed), it always listed the video track as 1080p24/1.001. But after my transcoding with MeGUI and remuxing with tsmuxer, if I listed the tracks using eac3to against this structure, it would list my video track as 720p23. It would do this even when setting the fps manually in tsmuxer to 24000/1001. This always bugged me why the original showed the fps as 24/1.001 and my transcoded as 23. The video was transcoded with an exact 23.976 fps. I was using the avs script creator included in MeGUI. Here's the line that the avs script creator was creating for frameserving the video with directshow (as an example):
DirectShowSource("C:\BDRip\ThePatriot.mkv", fps=23.976, audio=false)

Even with using a max level of 4.0 instead of 4.1, there's still a slight stutter, and eac3to displays the video as 720p23. After some playing around with some settings I was able to fix both the remaining stuttering and eac3to recognizing the video as 720p23. I changed my avs script. I now don't use MeGUI's avs script creator for my bluray backups. I just just use a template, and change the "movie.mkv" line to where my source mkv file is. Here it is :

# Set DAR in encoder to 16 : 9. The following line is for automatic signalling
global MeGUI_darx = 16
global MeGUI_dary = 9

#Source
DirectShowSource("movie.mkv", audio=false)

#Resize
Spline36Resize(1280,720)

#Tempo
AssumeFPS(24000,1001)


Here's the important changes I made to fix the stuttering/eac3to issue. I removed the fps=23.976 part from the DirectShowSource line. I then added the AssumeFPS(24000,1001) line. Using this as my avs script plus using max level 4.0, my tsmuxer bluray outputs now play as smooth as the original bluray movie on my panasonic bd-35. Also, if I run eac3to against my transcoded/bluray structure muxed output, it identifies my video as 720p24/1.001. This may help you in figuring out why your transcodes aren't playing correctly with your tv's 24 fps capability. Or, you could already be doing this and my post could be something that is just common knowledge and completely useless to you. I'm hoping it helps. Keep in mind I'm very new to transcoding. Please let me know if that helps with the 24 fps tv issue, since I don't have a tv with that ability.

PS...The AssumeFPS line has not caused any changes in length of movie or audio sync issues...

[deank]

I'm going to be muxing some blurays with 1 english regular subs track and 1 english forced subs track, and I would love it if I could force the forced subs track on instead of "burning" the forced track into the movie @ encoding time. But how would I tell which subtitle track is the "forced" track in order to use BDEdit to force that track on by default?


You need to use Set / SetSystem / SetStream command somewhere in Top menu (or better in the First Playback segment):
Add a new code line with [+] and edit the zeroes for the NOP command to show:

51C00001 8001C001 00000000

If I remember correctly the first 1 (in 8001) is for the forced audio track number and the second (in C001) is for the first subtitle track number.

[alc0re]

@deank

I appreciate your reply but there's going to be 2 seperate .sups muxed with tsmuxer. I can follow madmonkey's previous tutorial on how to force the sub on, but I'd like instructions on how to do it when there's 2 subtitle tracks and a little help on how to know which subtitle track in my "forced" track.

[deank]

Sorry... I must have confused by the term "forced" and used it as "make certain track show/play by default".

You should know which sup has the forced subtitles before starting this. Probably you should know that by the way you got the SUPs in first place.

[alc0re]

@deank

Ok, let me be a little more clear.

I have 2 seperate .srt files for a given movie. One .srt track is the subtitles for the entire movie. The other .srt file is only the "forced" subtitles (eg the parts of a given film where there is a foreign language spoken and the subs should be displayed even if you don't have subtitles displayed for the rest of the spoken parts.) I know which of the 2 srt files I want to set to be on by default through BDEdit...I'm not that much of a newbie that I can't figure out that the one that is the smaller file size and the one with only a few subtitles is the forced. What I'm saying is this : I do not know BDEdit at all...only opened it once. After I mux my 1 video track, 1 audio track, and 2 subtitle tracks into a bluray/avchd structure using tsmuxer, and I follow madmonkey's instructions to setting a subtitle track as on by default, 1) how do I tell it which of the 2 subtitle tracks to turn on by default and 2) how do i know through BDEdit which of the 2 subtitle tracks is actually the one that I want on by default (the one that I want forced on, that contains only the subtitles of the foreign language spoken parts of a given movie.) I hope that helps you understand what I'm looking for in an answer.

[deank]

I answered already:

You need to use Set / SetSystem / SetStream command somewhere in Top menu (or better in the First Playback segment):
Add a new code line with [+] and edit the zeroes for the NOP command to show:

51C00001 8001C001 00000000

$C001 is first subtitle track and $C002 is the second.

FIRST - the first one you added in tsMuxer
SECOND - the second one you added in tsMuxer

So if you added:

[1] MOVIE
[2] NORMAL SUBS
[3] FORCED SUBS

you should use $C002 for forced, because they are the second subtitle file added in tsmuxer

[alc0re]

Double posted somehow...see below

[alc0re]

You didn't mention C002 = the second subtitle added through tsmuxer in the previous post, you just mentioned C001 = subtitle number. I suppose I could have figured out that C002 = next subtitle, but I was looking for a more definite answer, which you have provided. Thanks again, you answered both my questions...I appreciate the help.

[alc0re]

Does any other owner of the BD35 have issues with fastforward/rewind on BD9 transcodes? I've tried lots of different settings and fast forward/rewind seems to not work correctly. Chapter skip works fine. FF/RW works sometimes on the slowest FF/RW speed, and then sometimes the video just stops fast forwarding, and I have to hit play for the video to start moving at all. Sometimes it even completely stalls the video and I have to eject the disc. Any ideas?

[Digi]

Does any other owner of the BD35 have issues with fastforward/rewind on BD9 transcodes? I've tried lots of different settings and fast forward/rewind seems to not work correctly. Chapter skip works fine. FF/RW works sometimes on the slowest FF/RW speed, and then sometimes the video just stops fast forwarding, and I have to hit play for the video to start moving at all. Sometimes it even completely stalls the video and I have to eject the disc. Any ideas?

These symptons also happen on the Sony BDP-S350

[MadMonkey57]

Does any other owner of the BD35 have issues with fastforward/rewind on BD9 transcodes? I've tried lots of different settings and fast forward/rewind seems to not work correctly. Chapter skip works fine. FF/RW works sometimes on the slowest FF/RW speed, and then sometimes the video just stops fast forwarding, and I have to hit play for the video to start moving at all. Sometimes it even completely stalls the video and I have to eject the disc. Any ideas?

Works fine on all of my encodes... What are your x264 settings ?

[rack04]

Does any other owner of the BD35 have issues with fastforward/rewind on BD9 transcodes? I've tried lots of different settings and fast forward/rewind seems to not work correctly. Chapter skip works fine. FF/RW works sometimes on the slowest FF/RW speed, and then sometimes the video just stops fast forwarding, and I have to hit play for the video to start moving at all. Sometimes it even completely stalls the video and I have to eject the disc. Any ideas?

Yep. All the time.

[alc0re]

@MadMonkey7

I've tried all kinds of different settings, and all have the same results playing on my panasonic BD35. Can you possibly post your current x264 encode settings so I can try them?

[laserfan]

Does any other owner of the BD35 have issues with fastforward/rewind on BD9 transcodes? I've tried lots of different settings and fast forward/rewind seems to not work correctly. Chapter skip works fine. FF/RW works sometimes on the slowest FF/RW speed, and then sometimes the video just stops fast forwarding, and I have to hit play for the video to start moving at all. Sometimes it even completely stalls the video and I have to eject the disc. Any ideas?A shot-in-the-dark: Have you tried muxing without the contSPS (tsMuxeR) option?

I've noticed that at least with Cyberlink PowerDVD 7.3 that with contSPS enabled, chapter marks are often early on entry. With contSPS gone from the .meta (or un-checked in the GUI) these are right-on as they should be.

I suspect therefore that contSPS messes with picture timing somehow. Dunno if this might affect your player but worth a try maybe.

[MadMonkey57]

@MadMonkey7

I've tried all kinds of different settings, and all have the same results playing on my panasonic BD35. Can you possibly post your current x264 encode settings so I can try them?

A customized version of Sharktooth's Blu Ray profile for MEGui:

--pass 1 --bitrate "${BITRATE}" --stats "${OUTPUT}.stats" --level "${LEVEL}" --keyint "${KEYINT}" --min-keyint 2 --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --weightb --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --subme 2 --partitions none --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-bufsize "${VBV_BUFSIZE}" --vbv-maxrate "${VBV_MAXRATE}" --qcomp 0.5 --me dia --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output NUL "${INPUT}" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd --sar "${SAR}"

--pass 2 --bitrate "${BITRATE}" --stats "${OUTPUT}.stats" --level "${LEVEL}" --keyint "${KEYINT}" --min-keyint 2 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --weightb --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --subme 7 --trellis 2 --partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --ipratio 1.1 --pbratio 1.1 --vbv-bufsize "${VBV_BUFSIZE}" --vbv-maxrate "${VBV_MAXRATE}" --qcomp 0.5 --me umh --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "${OUTPUT}" "${INPUT}" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd --sar "${SAR}"

typical values for args:

INPUT=blah.avs
OUTPUT=blah.264
BITRATE=nnnn
KEYINT=24
VBV_BUFSIZE=15000
VBV_MAXRATE=15000
SAR=1:1

[MadMonkey57]

Anybody tried firmware dated feb the 9th ?

[alc0re]

@ MadMonkey7

I've tried those settings too...I've tried lots of settings in an attempt to get this to work. Its the very last issue I'm having with my Bluray-to-BD5/9 process. I think it might actually not be an issue with the encode itself, but more of a muxer issue.

What exact steps/settings do you use in tsMuxer?

I'm going to experiment a bit. I need to rip one of my blurays and test it by muxing one of the extras without re-encoding back to a BD5/9 to test my theory that its a muxing issue.

Do you use default txMuxer settings? Do you have the following checked or unchecked on the video stream?

- Add picture timing info.
- Continually insert SPS/PPS.

Do you do anything to the mux after using tsMuxer? (aka fixclpi which from what I gather doesn't work on BD35s, or AVCHD-Me?)

I read in another thread that unchecking "Continually insert SPS/PPS" can help with chapter skipping. What exactly do these two video stream settings do anyways? (Continually insert SPS/PPS and add picture timing info.)

I read in another thread that the user G M C was also having the same issues. He said what he does now is to check "Change FPS" on the video stream option in tsMuxer, even though it "should" read the video FPS fine from the stream. Another user tried that and had luck with it. I haven't gotten around to trying that yet. Is that something you do with your muxing process? I have yet to try any of this with newest firmware. I'd be interested if we could use fixcpli now with the newest firmware also.

[MadMonkey57]

@ MadMonkey7

I've tried those settings too...I've tried lots of settings in an attempt to get this to work. Its the very last issue I'm having with my Bluray-to-BD5/9 process. I think it might actually not be an issue with the encode itself, but more of a muxer issue.

What exact steps/settings do you use in tsMuxer?

I'm going to experiment a bit. I need to rip one of my blurays and test it by muxing one of the extras without re-encoding back to a BD5/9 to test my theory that its a muxing issue.

Do you use default txMuxer settings? Do you have the following checked or unchecked on the video stream?

- Add picture timing info.
- Continually insert SPS/PPS.

Do you do anything to the mux after using tsMuxer? (aka fixclpi which from what I gather doesn't work on BD35s, or AVCHD-Me?)

I read in another thread that unchecking "Continually insert SPS/PPS" can help with chapter skipping. What exactly do these two video stream settings do anyways? (Continually insert SPS/PPS and add picture timing info.)

I read in another thread that the user G M C was also having the same issues. He said what he does now is to check "Change FPS" on the video stream option in tsMuxer, even though it "should" read the video FPS fine from the stream. Another user tried that and had luck with it. I haven't gotten around to trying that yet. Is that something you do with your muxing process? I have yet to try any of this with newest firmware. I'd be interested if we could use fixcpli now with the newest firmware also.

I keep "Add picture timing info" and "Continually insert SPS/PPS" checked and I always check "Change FPS" and "Change level" to force what is detected by tsmuxer. I've done this since the very first day I used tsmuxer as I had read at that moment it "was better that way"... Never took some time to try otherwise.

I never use fixclpi as it breaks playability on the BD35 although I don't know for sure if it is fixclpi or the firmware or x264 settings or tsmuxer settings or any combination of all of this which breaks playability...

Never used AVCHD-Me either.

I also hope the newest firmware will bring improvements but didn't upgrade yet.

[alc0re]

Update :

6-7 dvd+r's later, and still not working with FF/RW. Every thing I tried resulted in BD5 disc that if I use FF on, it would FF for a bit and then stop on a frame for 1-3 seconds, then start playing @ normal speed.

I haven't tried your x264 encode settings, but here's what I have tried.

I took a making of documentary from air force one bluray. It was a short source file...maybe about 6 mins. Processed and burned the m2ts file with Clown-BD....resulting burn did not FF/RW properly.

I took that same clip from air force one and extracted it myself, and muxed it with tsMuxer myself, selecting Change FPS and Change Level in tsMuxer video stream options. Resulting burn did not FF/RW properly.

These are muxes from a .264 video stream direct from studio (not re-encoded by me.) It should RW/FF ok if my FF/RW issues were encode settings related, but it still does not FF/RW correctly (unless it has to do with bitrate settings being too high for dvd-rom speed, but I doubt that. I checked the clip..the video stream is 10 Mbps and the audio stream is 192 Kbps.)

I tried numerous other combinations of things on another video that I transcoded using MeGUI. Here's what I tried on that encode.

1) Tried muxing with Change FPS and Change Level on. Didn't FF/RW correctly.
2) Tried muxing with Change FPS and Change Level on, and deselecting Continually Insert SPS/PPS and Insert Picture Timing Info. Didn't FF/RW correctly.
3) Took both of those muxes and ran a tool called CLIPINF Editor (from author of clown-bd) on them to fix the clipinf and change the structure to identify the mux as AVCHD (instead of tsMuxer's output saying it was bluray...since the panasonic bd35 reads it as avchd.) Both of those after running that tool on them also did not FF/RW correctly.
4) Tried another recommendation found in another thread to take the .m2ts file that tsMuxer outputs and use that is an input file in tsMuxer and remux it again to bluray format (aka mux it to bluray format, take that .m2ts and mux it again with tsMuxer to bluray format.) Still would not FF/RW.

So in conclusion, I have no idea how you are not having FF/RW issues. I think I've exhausted all possible avenues to correct this issue. PS, this was all done on panasonic's newest firmware for the BD35. Any suggestions MadMonkey?

[MadMonkey57]

Well, I don't know what to say... I've never had problems with my BD5s using the procedure I mentioned... It just... works... the exact same way commercial BDs work...
I'm currently upgrading the firmware... I'll let you know if anything is different regarding FFOR/REW.

[MadMonkey57]

Upgrade just done. EU version 1.3.

FFOR/REW are still working fine:5 speeds forward, 5 speeds backward, all work fine. The first speed forward has sound...

[alc0re]

Well,

There are a couple more things I can try...I'll keep you updated if I figure out what the heck is causing the issue in my case.

[alc0re]

Tried a few more things...

I lowered the vbv max bitrate and buffer size down to 15000 like on your encode settings. I also took out --nar-hrd like G M C.

I just did a test clip with new encode settings, muxed with tsMuxer with Change FPS on...used avchd-me like G M C did to apply fixcpli and patch m2ts size.

My results : Fast forward seems to work better, but still not perfect.

I'm starting to wonder if it has to do my either a) my blank media or b) my burning speed.

I'm using either single or dual layer Verbatim DVD+Rs...and I burn them at max speed. When the panasonic BD35 stops FF'ing, I think I can hear the BD35 "struggling" to read the medium.

1) What medium do you use? I thought Verbatim were the best.

2) What speed do you burn at? I think I'm going to try burning at the slowest speed and see if that helps.


UPDATE : Ok, I burned that same clip using my 1x speed in imgburn...I was able to FF the whole clip a 2x the first time...I tried again and it stalled right at the very end, then tried again at both 3x and 4x and I was able to FF the whole clip. So the slower burn speed did seem to help (although still not perfect.) Now I'd like to figure out if that was the only thing messing with my FF, or if it was also related to vbv settings and --nal-hrd settings. Sooo many wasted dvdrs... :(

UPDATE 2 : Changed my vbv settings back up to where they were (22000 buffer/16000 max.) Changed my other settings back to where they were, except I left --nal-hrd out again. Ran it through AVCHD-Me to apply fixcpli and m2ts patch...burned @ slowest speed and worked pretty consistently with FF/RW. Worked just as consistently as with lower vbv settings (I also tend to use more ref and b frames than 3/3, which is still compliant cause I resize to 720p) Here's an interesting thing I learned though. I took that same bluray structure, and followed MadMonkey7's instructions to strip out "extra" stuff and force an audio and subtitle track. That disc did not FF/RW very well at all. It constantly stopped FF'ing/stalled. Here's what else I noticed. On the disc that I didn't follow those instructions, my panasonic bd35 displayed the timecode of the movie during play and during FF/RW. On the one that I followed the directions for using BDEdit to strip out "extra" stuff and force audio/subs on, the timecode neither displayed during the playback or during FF/RW. By display I mean on the front panel of the physical player (the lcd display), not on the tv. I'm going to try leaving in the extra stuff and just adding a line to force audio/subs and see how that goes.

[MadMonkey57]

I'm using different media brands and even unbranded media and all seem to workfine when it comes to FF/RW.
btw I'm burning at the lowest speed my burner allows me to, that is 4x...
And I seem to encounter the kind of problems you're having if I use a DVD+RW disc
... So basically Media type and burning speed might be somehow (partly) responsible for FF/RW issues...

You are right about the LCD not displaying play time... How comes I have missed that !!! Adding the "SetStream" before "PLAY PL" commands and leaving the rest of the structure untouched should do the trick...

The new firmware doesn't help with the fixclpi issue...Still making my AVCHD/BD discs unplayable...
Fixing M2TS length in CLPI file is working fine...

Did you get fixclpi to work ?

[alc0re]

Umm....do I add that setstream command before the play pl command in every movie object? I was going to just add the setstream command right after command 0001 in movie object 000...(after move gpr0,0, before play pl_mk 0, grp10)

Is that correct or do I need to add setstream in more places?

As far as fixclpi...you know I haven't actually used fixclpi directly. after taking out --nal-hrd from my encoding, i've tried both using AVCHDMe and only using the "Fix CLPI files" option (which states it does what fixclpi.exe does, and i've used the utility CLIPINF_Editor from the guy that makes clown-bd and using the "Fix Length" area, which from what I gather it does the same thing that the avchdme program does. So I think yes, indirectly my encodes are working with fixclpi. not sure if the m2ts filesize thing is what gets it working and if that's maybe something fixclpi doesn't do? I really dont know what fixclpi is supposed to do so I'm just shooting in the dark. but yes, my encodes are a lot better now (still not perfect FF/RW...stops sometimes.)

My current process : Rip with eac3to, convert with MeGUI with a profile that is set to autoguess level (my encodes end up at level 3.2..important not to set it to level 4.1. i believe someone posted my finding on that issue with the bd35 earlier in this thread.) I took out --nal-hrd from my encode profile. I mux with tsmuxer, set change fps. I edit with bdedit to setsteam if needed (i only use with when I have a seperate "forced subs" track that I want on by default for foreign language parts of a movie), then I patch it with CLIPINF_Editor. burn now at slowest speed (4x)

I think i've gone trough like a total of 30-40 blank dvd+rs and more than 30 blank dvd+r dls to figure out all this stuff. (first set of 25 dvd+r dls i wasted cause I converted the video at an exact fps of 23.976 instead of 24000/1001 which caused stuttering (based on a tutorial for bluray to bd9)...and also the level 4.1 thing before I figured that issue out)

[MadMonkey57]

...Is that correct or do I need to add setstream in more places?...

Yes. Insert a SetStream BEFORE both PLAY PL commands in tsmuxer's output, that is in movie objects #0 and #1. Those 2 PLAY PL commands refer to the only playlist, which in turn points to the movie.

...I really dont know what fixclpi is supposed to do so I'm just shooting in the dark...

For what I understand, fixclpi fixes an internal table wrongly generated by tsmuxer in clpi files. What is usually referred to as "fix m2ts length" is another issue in clpi files, different than what fixclpi is fixing. As you probably have noticed, there is a bug in fixclpi and jdobbs has updated it. It won't be long until we get plenty of reports regarding Pana SAPs...

...important not to set it to level 4.1...I took out --nal-hrd from my encode profile..

I also tend to use profile 4.0, which is consistent with the VBV-* settings I use in x264 as it seems to *somehow* improve global playability (I used to have stuttering with 1280x720x50p with level 4.1. They's are gone by just switching to level 4.0...)

Regarding --nal-hrd, I have NOT done many tests... So it's hard for me to tell how if affects playability.

[alluringreality]

I've never had problems with my BD5s using the procedure I mentioned... It just... works... the exact same way commercial BDs work...

So if I was to use your encoding settings and author with Encore, does that mean it plays back as 24p on the BD-35? I can always author a test clip sometime, but I just figured it would be easier to ask if the 24p playback had been corrected with what you were discussing.

[MadMonkey57]

Well I should have written that it works ALMOST the same way commercial BDs work... As we have discussed a while ago, I can't get the "24p Playback" feature to work with BD5/9s...

[alc0re]

Where do I find the new version of fixclpi so I can test it?

[rack04]

Where do I find the new version of fixclpi so I can test it?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=145092

[laserfan]

@alc0re do not fail to note that this thread is about testing a version that is less than 24hours old i.e. jdobbs advises against using it for anything but testing atm.

[alc0re]

yah I saw that...thanks for the heads up.

[alc0re]

Yes. Insert a SetStream BEFORE both PLAY PL commands in tsmuxer's output, that is in movie objects #0 and #1. Those 2 PLAY PL commands refer to the only playlist, which in turn points to the movie.


@MadMonkey57....Tried it that way with a SetStream command before both PLAY PL commands in movie objects 0 and 1, and the movie refused to play. Edited that same movie and only had a setstream command before the play pl command in movie object 0 and the movie both plays correctly and set the subtitle on that I specified.

[MadMonkey57]

That's strange... I know I've done this a long time ago (before I started removing almost everything keeping only setstream and play pl...)... But I can't remember if it was on tsmuxer's index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv or Adobe Encore CS4... I'll make a few tests and will keep you informed...

[deank]

In multiAVCHD I use only one setstream in the whole compilation and it is before calling title#0 (top menu).

http://multiavchd.deanbg.com/setstream.jpg

[Elesias]

Hi !

I have problems with VC1 video streams (remuxed through TSMuxer) when playing on my Panasonic BD 35. Is there a trick to fix this trouble please ? Thanks !

[laserfan]

Just noticed this on the AnyDVD forum:

Fix (Blu-ray): Playback issues with Panasonic Blu-ray players

This is in the latest version--I have never noticed any comments there about Panny problems, but one wonders if it might have anything to do with problems being discussed here!?

[turbojet]

It has to do with removing region in anydvd.

[MadMonkey57]

Hi !

I have problems with VC1 video streams (remuxed through TSMuxer) when playing on my Panasonic BD 35. Is there a trick to fix this trouble please ? Thanks !

What kind of problems ? Burning BD-25/50 or BD5/9 ?
At least, be aware that VC1 is not AVCHD compliant. So that might be a reason why VC1 streams don't work on BD5/BD9.

[MadMonkey57]

That's strange... I know I've done this a long time ago (before I started removing almost everything keeping only setstream and play pl...)... But I can't remember if it was on tsmuxer's index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv or Adobe Encore CS4... I'll make a few tests and will keep you informed...

@alc0re

I still have this on my to do list... lacking time...

[MadMonkey57]

@MadMonkey57....Tried it that way with a SetStream command before both PLAY PL commands in movie objects 0 and 1, and the movie refused to play. Edited that same movie and only had a setstream command before the play pl command in movie object 0 and the movie both plays correctly and set the subtitle on that I specified.

I am not 100% sure I interpret navigation commands correctly, but based on what i see in the outputs from tsmuxer and Adobe Encore CS4, I tried a slightly different scenario to get audio/subs on by default...

The short version:

Use "Play PL_MK 0, 0" instead of "Play PL 0" in my previous procedure


The long version:

Use BDEdit to remove all movie objects but one, keep only 2 nav commands, and update them as follows:
- SetStream 2147598337, 0 [Forcing 1st audio and 1st sub]
- Play PL_MK 0, 0 [Playing Playlist #0 ????]
In addition:
- Assign movie object #0 to "First Playback" and "Top Menu"
- Choose "Movie" as the type of movie object for "First Playback"

Tried this only once so far... works fine... and the LCD displays the play time...

@alc0re, a little feedback would be appreciated

[deank]

Play PL X - Plays playlist file X (i.e. X=1 - 00001.mpls) from first playitem ignoring previous chapter/playitem settings
Play PL PI 0, 1 - Plays second (1) playitem from playlist 0 (00000.mpls)
Play PL MK X, Y - Plays specific chapter from a title.

[MadMonkey57]

Play PL X - Plays playlist file X (i.e. X=1 - 00001.mpls) from first playitem ignoring previous chapter/playitem settings
Play PL PI 0, 1 - Plays second (1) playitem from playlist 0 (00000.mpls)
Play PL MK X, Y - Plays specific chapter from a title.

Thanks for clarifying this.

Any idea why "Play PL 0" indeed plays playlist but doesn't *show* the play time on the LCD of the BD35 ????

[deank]

I guess because your player shows info only when playing a normal title with duration and chapter information set by navigational commands. I think Play PL is not to be used for playing normal titles, but for menu extras like warnings or menu pages (like I use it). Also what is allowed for display and operate is set with other means in playlist files (as you see in middle-upper part of playlist BDedit window).

[MadMonkey57]

OK. I understand the differences between PL and PL_MK and therefore why PL_MK is appropriate here. :thanks:

What I see in the outputs of tsmuxer and Encore is GPR assignments, comparisons, and title jumps. In both cases, if I walk trough the code, I always end up PLAY PL_MK 0, 0

I was assuming this: Nero Vision and Encore insert these GPR assignments and other nav commands within a generic authoring process. In the case of a main movie only, if all we need is starting the disc at the 1st chapter, manipulating those GPRs is useless.

My question is: what manipulating GPRs has to do with the SAP "learning" info from the disc like duration and so on ?? I though this kind of info was stored in PSRs.

EDIT: IMO, PLAY PL_MK nav command triggers the SAP to load some data in the PSRs. I guess it's not the case with PLAY PL.

[deank]

Yes, PSRs hold player status but those cannot be changed - only read, thus menu pages or m2ts files with program codes parse information to movieobject and title#0 (top menu) via GPRs.

For example your player is showing a menu page. The menu page itself contains move/compare... nav commands changing GPRs and then your top menu knows what title/chapter to play, which audio or subtitle stream to enable or disable, etc...

In case of no menu and no need to know what menu page is shown or what user actions are performed you can use Immediate values (of course if the nav command accepts such - as you know some commands require target to be a register).

Also some GPRs get changed by the player itself (while executing playlists), reflecting current chapter/title ie....

GPRs are also mostly used for sort of 'communication' between titles and their program codes (movieobject object IDs).

Also for easy reading one can think of Play commands as:

Play PL X = Play PLaylist X (XXXXX.mpls)
Play PL MK X, Y= Play PLaylist X, starting from playlist MarK (chapter) Y (so this version of the command is time-based)
Play PL PI X, Y = Play PLaylist X, starting from Play Item Y (if your mpls contains references to more than 1 m2ts file - each m2ts is a playitem) - so in other words it means - check playlist xxxxx.mpls and play (Y-1)th m2ts file from it (this version is more like file based) PlayItems are zeropadded so the first is 0, tenth is 9, etc... Of course this is really simplified explanation... but I guess you get the idea.

***

It is not a good idea to have Title#0 (top menu) and Title#1 (main movie) to share the same objectID. While playing a title as TOP menu - navigation is handled differently and information displayed on SAPs LCD or TV is different, too. The best way is to have a simple Jump title #1 for top menu, Play PL MK 0,0 in title#1 (if your mpls file is 00000.mpls), BREAK to quit playback.

***

[x] First playback [Interactive] [2]
[x] Top Menu [1]

Title [1]: HDTV / Permitted / OID #0
---
ObjectID: (all with suspend/enabled/enabled for resume/menucall/titlesearch)

[000]
Play PL_MK 0,0
BREAK

[001]
Jump Title 1

[002]
SetStream $8001C001
Jump Title 0

[MadMonkey57]

...Also some GPRs get changed by the player itself (while executing playlists), reflecting current chapter/title ie...

OK. This is obviously what was troubling me... I would never have thought that the player would alter GPRs... Do you have any info (link ?) on this ? What GPRs can be altered ? What is the trigger ? What is the meaning of the value ?

...Play PL PI X, Y = Play PLaylist X, starting from Play Item Y (if your mpls contains references to more than 1 m2ts file - each m2ts is a playitem)...

Thanks for this explanation.

...It is not a good idea to have Title#0 (top menu) and Title#1 (main movie) to share the same objectID. While playing a title as TOP menu - navigation is handled differently and information displayed on SAPs LCD or TV is different, too...

Could you be a little more specific about that ?

...The best way is to have a simple Jump title #1 for top menu, Play PL MK 0,0 in title#1 (if your mpls file is 00000.mpls), BREAK to quit playback.

***

[x] First playback [Interactive] [2]
[x] Top Menu [1]

Title [1]: HDTV / Permitted / OID #0
---
ObjectID: (all with suspend/enabled/enabled for resume/menucall/titlesearch)

[000]
Play PL_MK 0,0
BREAK

[001]
Jump Title 1

[002]
SetStream $8001C001
Jump Title 0

This minimalistic BD structure / nav commands looks VERY nice, and very close to what tsmuxer and Encore produce (better BD compliancy), stripped out of every unnecessary GPRs manipulations... I definitely will try this for my next backup. Thanks a lot deank.

[deank]

OK. This is obviously what was troubling me... I would never have thought that the player would alter GPRs... Do you have any info (link ?) on this ? What GPRs can be altered ? What is the trigger ? What is the meaning of the value ?

Now again about registers.

It turned out that some PSRs are Player STATUS Registers and some are Player SETTING Registers.

Some STATUS registers can be changed with navigational commands and none of the SETTING registers can be changed (except with some workarounds when using BD-J applications).

And for example changing the value in PSR11 should make the player switch to/display another menu page....

May be not knowing this confused me that the player can alter GPRs, but in fact - depending on player's firmware - it is allowed to set/change GPRs, for example on start-up/disc-loading/changing settings in player's menu, etc...

Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Dean

[rack04]

Has anyone tried tsMuxer Version 1.8.35(b)? The reason I ask is because I'm finding that it does not work with my BD-35. The player give error "unsupported" disc.

[alc0re]

I have yet to try it, but there's two modes now. According to the release notes, if you're buring to a dvd you need to use avchd mode, not bluray mode. bluray mode is only for burning to actual bluray discs. Not sure if that's the issue you're having or not though.

EDIT : Just tried it. Confirmed that tsMuxer 1.8.35(b) works just fine with a bd-35 as long as you choose avchd mode.

[rack04]

I have yet to try it, but there's two modes now. According to the release notes, if you're buring to a dvd you need to use avchd mode, not bluray mode. bluray mode is only for burning to actual bluray discs. Not sure if that's the issue you're having or not though.

EDIT : Just tried it. Confirmed that tsMuxer 1.8.35(b) works just fine with a bd-35 as long as you choose avchd mode.

Ohh, that's why. I chose blu-ray. Any idea why blu-ray output doesn't work?

[alc0re]

bluray output is meant for when you burn this stuff to an actual recordable bluray disc. I'm not sure if its in this thread or not, but panasonic's bd-35 and a few other players from both panasonic and other companies will only play this content on a recordable dvd if its output in a specific way that makes the player think its an avchd disc. You could see what I mean if you download the clipinf editor tool from the same guy that does the clown bd program. You can actually use that tool to change at least one part of tsMuxer's output that identifies it as an avchd and change it to bluray or vice-versa. I wouldn't suggest you change it though if you want it to work, just a tool that you could use to see what I mean.

[rack04]

bluray output is meant for when you burn this stuff to an actual recordable bluray disc. I'm not sure if its in this thread or not, but panasonic's bd-35 and a few other players from both panasonic and other companies will only play this content on a recordable dvd if its output in a specific way that makes the player think its an avchd disc. You could see what I mean if you download the clipinf editor tool from the same guy that does the clown bd program. You can actually use that tool to change at least one part of tsMuxer's output that identifies it as an avchd and change it to bluray or vice-versa. I wouldn't suggest you change it though if you want it to work, just a tool that you could use to see what I mean.

When/why was this changed? Up until recently blu-ray output worked with my BD-35. Now I must select AVCHD.

[MadMonkey57]

In previous versions of tsmuxer, the "Blu Ray output" was actually an AVCHD/BD output.

Now, tsmuxer is capable of producing 2 outputs:

- "Blu Ray": 100% BD compliant, ment to be burnt on BD media (very few SAP will read the output on DVD media)
- "AVCHD": the usual AVCHD/BD stuff

[MadMonkey57]

...
[x] First playback [Interactive] [2]
[x] Top Menu [1]

Title [1]: HDTV / Permitted / OID #0
---
ObjectID: (all with suspend/enabled/enabled for resume/menucall/titlesearch)

[000]
Play PL_MK 0,0
BREAK

[001]
Jump Title 1

[002]
SetStream $8001C001
Jump Title 0

Hey deank,

Just wanted to let you know that I tried this and it works like a charm. Thanks pal.

[deank]

:) I'm glad.

I don't know if you noticed - there is a FW update (ver 1.4) for BD35/55 on Panasonic's web page:

More... (http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/bd/index.html)

[MadMonkey57]

:) I'm glad.

I don't know if you noticed - there is a FW update (ver 1.4) for BD35/55 on Panasonic's web page:

More... (http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/bd/index.html)

Thanks for the heads up!

[alc0re]

:) I'm glad.

I don't know if you noticed - there is a FW update (ver 1.4) for BD35/55 on Panasonic's web page:

More... (http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/bd/index.html)

Notes state "BD-V Playability"

What is BD-V? (Sorry if that's a stupid question...sounds to me like BD-Video...but I still don't know what the firmware fixes/enhances.)

[deank]

I can see that panasonic uses this way of saying that they addressed some problems with some commercial BD discs.

Previous updates are similar (for BD30):

Improvements
1. AVCHD and BD-V Playability
1. BD-V Playability
1. Playability and Stability
1. BD-V(24p) Playability
1. BD-V(PiP) Playability
2. HDMI Compatibility
3. Audio output level (Low Frequency Effect) improvement
1. BD-V Playability
2. DVD-RW Playability
1. Playability and Stability

[rack04]

I just tried to play a AVCHD that was authored using tsMuxeR 1.10.6. The 1280x720 h.264 stream was encoded using x264 --preset slower. I specified --level 4.1 which made the stream have ref=8. According to the profile this is an acceptable ref frame number. Has anyone has any problems playing 1280x720 with 8 ref frames? As far as I can tell that was the only difference in the encodes. The one with 5 ref frames works fine. Thanks.

[deank]

Try to encode it with --trellis 0, --bframes 4 and may be it is a good idea to explicitly set --keyint to 24 (or 25... depends on your source).
This works just fine in Playstation3 (1280x720@23,976fps)


Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=8 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3
:0x113 / me=hex / subme=5 / psy=1 / psy_rd=0.0:0.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=12 /
chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=
0 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=4 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=
1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / wpredb=1 / keyint=24 / keyint_min=1 / scenecut=40 / rc
_lookahead=24 / rc=cbr / mbtree=1 / bitrate=2435 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.50 / qp
min=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=30000 / vbv_bufsize=30000 / ip_ratio=
1.10 / aq=1:1.00

[rack04]

This is the encoder settings for the video that will not play on my Panasonic BD-35:

cabac=1 / ref=8 / deblock=1:-1:-1 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=9 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.0:0.2 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 /
chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-3 / threads=6 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 /
bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=24 / keyint_min=1 / scenecut=40 / rc_lookahead=24 /
rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=3698 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 /
vbv_maxrate=24000 / vbv_bufsize=30000 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

[deank]

Can you 'paste' the x264 line so I can test directly?

[rack04]

Can you 'paste' the x264 line so I can test directly?

Here (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=67a5d5c276a6350a0f83d91f6dff7c38e04e75f6e8ebb871) is the .bat file that I used to encode.

In case you don't want the .bat file here is the pasted 1st and 2nd pass:

"%x264_PATH%" --preset slower --tune film --pass 1 --bitrate %VIDBITRATE% --stats "%SOURCE_FOLDER%\%SOURCE_FILENAME%.stats"
--level 4.1 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --vbv-maxrate 24000 --no-fast-pskip --nal-hrd
--output NUL "%INPUT_VIDEO%" 2> "%SOURCE_FOLDER%\%SOURCE_FILENAME%-1pass.txt"

"%x264_PATH%" --preset slower --tune film --pass 2 --bitrate %VIDBITRATE% --stats "%SOURCE_FOLDER%\%SOURCE_FILENAME%.stats"
--level 4.1 --keyint 24 --min-keyint 1 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --vbv-maxrate 24000 --no-fast-pskip --sar 1:1 --aud --nal-hrd
--output "%SOURCE_FOLDER%\%SOURCE_FILENAME%-output.h264" "%INPUT_VIDEO%" 2> "%SOURCE_FOLDER%\%SOURCE_FILENAME%-2pass.txt"

The source file that I used was 1920x1080 Battlestar Galactica Season 1 Disc 2 HD DVD resized to 1280x720 using DGVC1DecNV.

[deank]

Encode is running now... I'll let you know in few minutes if it plays in my Playstation 3 (nothing else to test with :) )

Dean


Video
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 8 frames
Bit rate : 4 000 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Resolution : 24 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.181
Writing library : x264 core 69 r1198 a1ed468
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=8 / deblock=1:-1:-1 / analyse=0
x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=9 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.0:0.2 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16
/ chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offse
t=-3 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_ada
pt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=24 / keyint_min=1 / scenecut=40 /
rc_lookahead=24 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=4000 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60
/ qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=2400
0 / vbv_bufsize=30000 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00


Quality is really nice... and it plays both in AVCHD/Blu-ray mode and in normal XMB file mode.
I used the raw 264, added audio and authored with multiAVCHD.

[rack04]

The reason that I think that it is the number of ref frames causing the problem is because using --preset slow works and --preset slower doesn't.

The only difference that I can see between these presets that may cause a problem is the number of ref frames.

Using --preset slower and --level 4.1 the number of reference frames for 1280x720 is decreased to 8.

Using --preset slow and --level 4.1 the number of reference frames for 1280x720 is held at 5.

Unless mbtree has something to do with standalone playback. The one I encoded that works used an older version of x264 and the one that doesn't uses the newest version with mbtree.

[deank]

To rull out if ref is affecting your player you can try the same preset that you used but decrease ref to 7, then to 6 and finally to 5 and test each result - then you will know for sure :)

[rack04]

To rull out if ref is affecting your player you can try the same preset that you used but decrease ref to 7, then to 6 and finally to 5 and test each result - then you will know for sure :)

You're right. I encoded the same file 4 separate times varying from 5 ref frames to 8 ref frames. I authored a AVCHD using multiAVCHD that has a carousel menu to select each of the 4 files. I'll test when I get home and report back.

I have attached the ISO that I created for the ref frame test. If anyone has access to a Panasonic BD30 please burn the ISO to DVD+RW and test with your player. Thanks.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N0E5FD6H

Disclaimer: The ISO I have attached is of the open source film "Big Buck Bunny".

[deank]

I just tested it in my Playstation 3:

All four titles with different ref settings play just fine with pristine quality!

Dean

[davidcw]

You're right. I encoded the same file 4 separate times varying from 5 ref frames to 8 ref frames. I authored a AVCHD using multiAVCHD that has a carousel menu to select each of the 4 files. I'll test when I get home and report back.

I have attached the ISO that I created for the ref frame test. If anyone has access to a Panasonic BD30 please burn the ISO to DVD+RW and test with your player. Thanks.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N0E5FD6H

Disclaimer: The ISO I have attached is of the open source film "Big Buck Bunny".

My DMP-BD30 freezes with 8 ref frames, but will play 7,6 and 5 ref frames.

davidcw

[deank]

That's a good thing to know. If rack04 can create another .ISO with 1920x1080 with ref test 1 to 4 it will be great to know panasonic's boundaries.

[rack04]

That's a good thing to know. If rack04 can create another .ISO with 1920x1080 with ref test 1 to 4 it will be great to know panasonic's boundaries.

I played the ref frame test disc on my BD35 and all play except for 8 ref frames. Ref frames 5,6, and 7 play fine.

Here is the 1920x1080 test. There are 3 files encoded with 4, 3, and 2 ref frames.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=2fc38bf822b303779bf8d6369220dcabe04e75f6e8ebb871

[davidcw]

I played the ref frame test disc on my BD35 and all play except for 8 ref frames. Ref frames 5,6, and 7 play fine.

Here is the 1920x1080 test. There are 3 files encoded with 4, 3, and 2 ref frames.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=2fc38bf822b303779bf8d6369220dcabe04e75f6e8ebb871

2,3 and 4 ref frames all work on the DMP-BD30

[rack04]

2,3 and 4 ref frames all work on the DMP-BD30

Good to know. Thanks for testing. I'll report my finding later tonight.

EDIT: Confirmed that 1920x1080 works with ref=2,3,4. So we're just limited to ref=7 for 1280x720.

[rack04]

I read this in another thread and thought it might be useful here.

One thing is for sure, that for 1080p is max 4 ref (according both H264 or Blu-Ray specs) and for 720p is 6 refs (according Blu-Ray specs).
Better leave some room for errors :)

[davsim]

You're right. I encoded the same file 4 separate times varying from 5 ref frames to 8 ref frames. I authored a AVCHD using multiAVCHD that has a carousel menu to select each of the 4 files. I'll test when I get home and report back.

I have attached the ISO that I created for the ref frame test. If anyone has access to a Panasonic BD30 please burn the ISO to DVD+RW and test with your player. Thanks.
I extracted the ISO and converted to SDHC with multiAVCHD. All 4 (5,6,7,8) files played from SD card without freezes on my BD60.

[rack04]

I extracted the ISO and converted to SDHC with multiAVCHD. All 4 (5,6,7,8) files played from SD card without freezes on my BD60.

Interesting. I may have to re-test on SD card.

[laserfan]

You need to use Set / SetSystem / SetStream command somewhere in Top menu (or better in the First Playback segment):
Add a new code line with [+] and edit the zeroes for the NOP command to show:

51C00001 8001C001 00000000

If I remember correctly the first 1 (in 8001) is for the forced audio track number and the second (in C001) is for the first subtitle track number.

$C001 is first subtitle track and $C002 is the second.

FIRST - the first one you added in tsMuxer
SECOND - the second one you added in tsMuxer

So if you added:

[1] MOVIE
[2] NORMAL SUBS
[3] FORCED SUBS

you should use $C002 for forced, because they are the second subtitle file added in tsmuxer
I tried this, simplifying my tsMuxeR output using MadMonkey57's guide from earlier in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229423#post1229423), and using deank's 8001C002 idea when I play my muxed output, the 2nd sub is forced to ON. It works! :)

But I have a question: in MadMonkey57's post he talks about using 49153 with SetStream which is hex 0000C001, and deank you said 8000C001. Why 8000Cxxx vs. 0000Cxxx?

More: is there a downside to simplifying the structure as MadMonkey57 has done? It's curious to me that Roman built tsMuxeR to have 3 movie objects if only one is needed to work well?

EDIT: Arghhh, I found the answer to 1st question here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1274952#post1274952)!!!! :o

But I'll leave this post in case anyone has ideas about my 2nd (and this thread deserves a bump cuz it helped me!). ;)

[deank]

I may add a correction because there was something about changing only the audio or only the subtitles... There was a thread here and a message by rick how to handle changing only the audio and keeping the current subtitle stream... But most people (using tsMuxeR won't really need it).

Dean

[MadMonkey57]

...is there a downside to simplifying the structure as MadMonkey57 has done? It's curious to me that Roman built tsMuxeR to have 3 movie objects if only one is needed to work well?...
I used the simplified structure for a few months before march 2009 and it worked OK. But now, I've switched to a more "traditional" structure as deank described here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1258566#post1258566). I like it better than my stripped down version.
On the practical side, I don't patch index.bdmv after every muxing. I use either of 2 pre-patched copies of index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv, one with "force first audio" setting and one with "force first audio and first text" setting.

[laserfan]

I don't patch index.bdmv after every muxing. I use either of 2 pre-patched copies of index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv, one with "force first audio" setting and one with "force first audio and first text" setting.As I'm still struggling to get my head around the ins/outs of this (I will try sleeping with deank's post under my pillow ;)) I wonder MadMonkey57 if you would share your "pre-patched" index/MOs with us (maybe add to the Downloads page of your Samples?).

Many thanks btw for your efforts here. :)

[MadMonkey57]

...I wonder MadMonkey57 if you would share your "pre-patched" index/MOs with us (maybe add to the Downloads page of your Samples?)...

Yeah sure... Might take a couple of days (I'm really busy at the moment).

[laserfan]

Thanks very much for your consideration!

[MadMonkey57]

There you go. (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZH9J8VTU)

[laserfan]

URL="http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZH9J8VTU"]There you go.[/URL]Megaupload refuses to give me the file, because I'm on a satellite ISP with shared IP addresses. Could you just attach the tiny (1.6K) file here please--I can wait for mods to approve...

EDIT: Never mind I persisted to check-back and now have the file--Thanks MM57!

[laserfan]

I used the simplified structure for a few months before march 2009 and it worked OK. But now, I've switched to a more "traditional" structure as deank described here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1258566#post1258566). I like it better than my stripped down version. On the practical side, I don't patch index.bdmv after every muxing. I use either of 2 pre-patched copies of index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv, one with "force first audio" setting and one with "force first audio and first text" setting.
OK, I can see now by re-reading deank's post referred to above and studying your samples MadMonkey57 that they are set-up exactly as Dean suggested, and I have now tried same with my tsMuxeR (movie only no menu) output and it works great!

I want to thank both of you gentlemen for this education, as I can now just copy-in to my BDMV and BACKUP folders a couple of my own template files instead of editing tsMuxeR's each/every time!

:thanks:

[Music Fan]

Hi,
can you read Dolby True HD burned on dvd in AVCHD mode created by MultiAVCHD with the BD35 ?
I tried it but I have weird problems with the sound : my receiver recognize it as Dolby True HD but the sound is inaudible.

[olivier06]

Hi !
I've encoutered a problem with chapters.
I have some mkv that already have a chapter track : uncropmkv (if necessary) + tsmuxer (avchd) + imgburn (2.5) and it works : i can access to the chapters with >>|
Some of my mkvs have no chapter track. I try bluray in tsmuxer with insert or custom chapters (in bluray tab) + AVCHD-patcher : the dvd plays but stop when i use >>|

Have you got any idea ?
thanks

solved

[olivier06]

change the number of reference frames

Hello,
i have an mkv in 5.1 profile, passed in tsmuxer in 4.1 and burn : not working with my bd35.
So i've tried in MultiAvchd and when i hit the start button/strict avchd i got the message :

"detected frame reference count :8 (max 7)
Video is not AVCHD/BDMV compliant"

But i read in in uncropMkv :
Ref. frames : 3
b frames : 3
level : 4.1

Is UncropMkv wrong ? How Mutliavchd count 8 ?
What can i do with this mkv to make playable in my bd35 ? Is it a way to have "less" reference frames ?

Thank U

[deank]

What you see in uncropMKV is WHAT IS GOING TO BE after you re-encode your video. If you re-encode it then it will have the proper ref-count. You can't use >4 for 1080p and >6 for 720p videos.

And there is no need to cross-post!

[olivier06]

thank you for your response and sorry for the cross post.

[jfcarbel]

Does this only effect the Panasonic BD-35? Are any other Panasonic models effected?

I had a BD-30, but recently upgraded to the BD-80

[Ghitulescu]

Does this only effect the Panasonic BD-35? Are any other Panasonic models effected?

All of them.

[jfcarbel]

All of them.

Curious then, has anyone here contacted SlySoft to fix their software for Panasonic? Or has anyone attempted to alert Panasonic on this issue so they can fix the firmware?

[Ghitulescu]

Curious then, has anyone here contacted SlySoft to fix their software for Panasonic? Or has anyone attempted to alert Panasonic on this issue so they can fix the firmware?
Why would one modify the software to create DVDs/BDs compatible with only one brand? There are other brands as well.

BTW, the Pannies are made by Funai , based on the Uniphier chip, which Funai also manufacturers the Denons among others. Not all Funais exhibit this issue.

[deank]

The issue with Panasonics is that they refuse to play Blu-ray content written to DVD media. Samsung had the same issue in the beginning, then they fixed it, later REMOVED it and a week ago put the feature back with the latest firmware update.

Panasonics require DVD discs to be AVCHD and even then they'll reject the disc if it has any traces of java or subpath mechanism in the playlist files.

I hope that panasonic will put a firmware update soon, otherwise it is really going behind Sony or other manufacturers, which allow home users to create home-brew BDs using DVD media.

I can't see what SlySoft has to do with it.

[Emulgator]

If one is still interested in finding ref count restrictions implied by chipsets:
Just by chance I took DS's first x264-encode of Tailship (MPEG-4 AVC 1280x720x59.97p)
which unintentionally was encoded with CL ref=9,
authored this using Sony DVD-A 5.0b Build 180 on BD-RE 25 and Panasonic BD-50 played this exceeding encode.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=152127&page=30

[rack04]

Does this only effect the Panasonic BD-35? Are any other Panasonic models effected?

I had a BD-30, but recently upgraded to the BD-80

Does what effect the Panasonic BD-35? Maybe I missed something relating to Slysoft.

[shon3i]

If one is still interested in finding ref count restrictions implied by chipsets:
Just by chance I took DS's first x264-encode of Tailship (MPEG-4 AVC 1280x720x59.97p)
which unintentionally was encoded with CL ref=9,
authored this using Sony DVD-A 5.0b Build 180 on BD-RE 25 and Panasonic BD-50 played this exceeding encode.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=152127&page=30
Nothing unusual, because most players have full H264 decoders not strict with blu-ray specs.

[Ghitulescu]

If one is still interested in finding ref count restrictions implied by chipsets:
Just by chance I took DS's first x264-encode of Tailship (MPEG-4 AVC 1280x720x59.97p)
which unintentionally was encoded with CL ref=9,
authored this using Sony DVD-A 5.0b Build 180 on BD-RE 25 and Panasonic BD-50 played this exceeding encode.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=152127&page=30

Nothing unusual, because most players have full H264 decoders not strict with blu-ray specs.

It depends on the on-board memory the chip has or has access. Most chips used in BDplayers are also used in HDTV-STBs, whereas the HDTV-broadcasters usually make use of longer refs to save some bandwidth.:rolleyes:

PS: I am really curious to test the Toshiba BD. They were the most strict manufacturers when it comes to standards.

[MrpaulJ]

The issue with Panasonics is that they refuse to play Blu-ray content written to DVD media. Samsung had the same issue in the beginning, then they fixed it, later REMOVED it and a week ago put the feature back with the latest firmware update.

Panasonics require DVD discs to be AVCHD and even then they'll reject the disc if it has any traces of java or subpath mechanism in the playlist files.

I hope that panasonic will put a firmware update soon, otherwise it is really going behind Sony or other manufacturers, which allow home users to create home-brew BDs using DVD media.

I can't see what SlySoft has to do with it.

Hi all.

I'm new to this game. I have gone through multiple threads and this answer seems to hold the key.

I have a BD55, hardware modded to play multi region BD's. I also have a cheap and cheerful Foehn & Hirsch BR player.

The BD55 is up to firmware 1.8 (latest)?

I used Tsmuxer and Imgburn to build a 720p disc from a 3gb H264 video file I had. I did use MultiAVCHD first but it gave me errors, probably down to my misunderstanding the process!

With Tsmuxer and Imgburn The DVD burned ok and the Foehn & Hirsch plays it fine but the dreaded BD55 gives 'Unsupported Disc'!

Is there a thread or link which would give a reasonable method to get it working on the dreaded Panasonic please?

:mad:

[deank]

Did you use "AVCHD" mode in tsMuxeR? It should work with the Panasonic.

[MrpaulJ]

Did you use "AVCHD" mode in tsMuxeR? It should work with the Panasonic.

Dean.

Thanks for the prompt response. I ran Tsmuxer and checked the AVCHD mode. Its has produced the output and I am writing it to DVD to test now...

I hadn't noticed that switch before so fingers crossed...

Paul.

[deank]

It will work, don't worry. :)

[MrpaulJ]

Did you use "AVCHD" mode in tsMuxeR? It should work with the Panasonic.

Dean.

Total success. RTFS I suppose... The Panasonic correctly identifies it as AVCHD so well done you.

I was only after finding your post that it sort of became clear what the player wanted. It does seem be incredibly strict in terms of what it will play and wont, especially as the cheap BR player that only cost me £60 plays it fine!:)