Authoring BD5s for playing on the Panasonic DMP-BD35

[MadMonkey57]

I believe it makes sense to start a new thread since I don't want to trash the other threads with the specific issues I come accross with the BD35. So let's start it...

My purpose is pretty simple : Authoring customized but still compliant BD5s for playing on the Panasonic DMP-BD35.

Customized means "possibly main menu, 1/+ audio and subtitle streams per movie, handling commands like those involved in the Force Subtitle ON trick, ..."
BD5 means "blu ray content burned on DVD"
Compliant means "conforming to the BD specs and therefore playable on ANY standalone"

For those who need to catch-up on the BD5 thing, I suggest you start with these threads :

Attempt to centralize info on BD reencoding, transcoding or muxing (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=141376])
smartLabs tsMuxeR: Transport Stream muxer (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=134104)
BD structure edit (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125903)

My own experience so far :

I own a DMP-BD35, EU version, firmware updated to version 1.2 (december, 15th 2008)
I use the following tools : tsmuxer 1.8.8b, BDEdit 0.17b, eac3to, fixclpi, hex editor, Adobe Encore CS4, search feature in Doom9, Google.

The good thing : tsmuxer's output untouched (1/+ audio / subtitle streams) plays fine (including chapter seeking, FFOR/REW)

Now the not so good things :

- Adobe Encore CS4's output (a main menu plus several movies) is rejected ("DISC NOT SUPPORTED") by the BD35
- applying fixclpi on CLIPINF dir breaks FFOR/REW functionalities
- applying fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF ... the BD35 plays for half a sec and stops
- applying the "Force subtitle ON" commands... the BD35 plays for half a sec and stops

Yet, fixclpi should improve compliancy (at minimum it helps for some standalone)...
The "Force subtitle ON" commands seem to work fine on PS3 and definately works on my software player (ArcSOft). AFAIK, no report from other standalone though...
Never seen reports on Adobe Encore CS4 yet...

Please post your experiences so we can try to sort things out and hopefully achieve the goal.

Thank you guys.

----------------------------------------
- Improvements since the very first post -
----------------------------------------
Improvement #1 : Playing backup movies with BD-J content on BD-R (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1228650#post1228650) (thanks to azad)
Improvement #2 : Forcing an audio stream and/or a subtitle (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1228707#post1228707)
Improvement #3 : Playing hybrid AVCHD/BD5 created by commercial authoring software (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828)


-----------------------------------
- Findings since the very first post -
-----------------------------------
Finding #1: 720x576x50p doesn't work, but 1280x720x50p works (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1234959#post1234959)
Finding #2: Why BD-RB full backups don't work on red laser DVD in the BD35 ? (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1237632#post1237632)

[Capsbackup]

My experience:(NTSC). MeGui to encode using .x264 standalone avchd preset to BD5 for dvd+rw and dvd-r discs, eac3to to convert audio to 640kbps ac3, tsMuxeR_1.8.8(b) to mux video, audio and 1 eng sub to Blu-Ray. I use FixclpiGUI. Then burn using IMGBurn udf 2.5 format.
Have made 12 plus conversions so far and all were played back perfectly on Sony BDP-BX1/BDP-350. When Panasonic went on sale for $199.00, I bought one and none of my discs would play. Would just say play and stop. So I updated to the current firmware, but still would not work. I returned the Panasonic since I need compatibility.

[MadMonkey57]

ouch...

[azad]

I have the same kind of problem with the BD35.
I ripped a BD, just deleted some m2ts files (Trailers and stuff), nothing movie related and burned the whole thing on a BD-RE. The BD35 starts to play, shows 00:00:00 and stops.
Without deleting those files, the BD-RE is working. :confused:
So what is the BD35 doing? Checking the BD if every file is accessible!?!? Just kidding, but I don't understand why the player stops when some m2ts files are missing and they are defintely not needed for just accessing the menu and movie itself.

[MadMonkey57]

So at least some the problems seem to affect BD-RE media as well and not just DVDs (BD5/9). It appears as if the BD35 performs some kind of integrity checks on the file structure (and maybe also in the content of some files... could be a reason for BACKUP dir...).

As this misbehaviour seem to affect BD30 as well, even if the problem lies in the firmware, it should be solved by now on the BD30... Either Panasonic don't know or don't care...

I'm looking forward to trying the next version of tsmuxer as well as jdobbs future muxing engine for BD-Rebuilder (tsmuxer is used for now).

[n0mag!c]

So at least some the problems seem to affect BD-RE media as well and not just DVDs (BD5/9). It appears as if the BD35 performs some kind of integrity checks on the file structure (and maybe also in the content of some files... could be a reason for BACKUP dir...).
One assumption comes to my mind, but it can be false (I can't check it by myself, I have PS3).
tsmuxer creates index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv with "INDX0100" and "MOBJ0100" headers, while PLAYLIST\00000.mpls and CLIPINF\00001.clpi with "MPLS0200" and "HDMV0200".
Will patching all headers to "1" or "2" help to solve the issue?

[n0mag!c]

And also what about to experiment with "CERTIFICATE" folder?
Will anything change if:
1) not burn "CERTIFICATE" folder at all
2) burn empty "CERTIFICATE" folder from tsmuxer
3) burn "CERTIFICATE" folder from scenarist bdmv: 9159

[MadMonkey57]

One assumption comes to my mind, but it can be false (I can't check it by myself, I have PS3).
tsmuxer creates index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv with "INDX0100" and "MOBJ0100" headers, while PLAYLIST\00000.mpls and CLIPINF\00001.clpi with "MPLS0200" and "HDMV0200".
Will patching all headers to "1" or "2" help to solve the issue?

I already checked it a while and it didn't work.. but still theses tests were in combination with some others (commands if I remember correctly... ) and I haven't checked with the latest firmware... it's worth a try... I'll let you know...:thanks:

[MadMonkey57]

And also what about to experiment with "CERTIFICATE" folder?
Will anything change if:
1) not burn "CERTIFICATE" folder at all
2) burn empty "CERTIFICATE" folder from tsmuxer
3) burn "CERTIFICATE" folder from scenarist bdmv: 9159

I'll definately give this a try ! I will report back... :thanks: :thanks:

[azad]

I found the problem why the BD35 stops playing.
The problem was not deleting some of the m2ts files but removing the regioncode from BD-J discs.
Removing the regioncode from none-BD-J discs the BD35 doesn't seem to care about.

So I ripped a BD without removing the regioncode, removed some of the unwanted m2ts files, burned the whole thing to a BD-RE and everything worked without a problem.

[MadMonkey57]

...The problem was not deleting some of the m2ts files but removing the regioncode from BD-J discs.
Removing the regioncode from none-BD-J discs the BD35 doesn't seem to care about...

Could that be a "sign" indicating an integrity check of some sort ??? Mmm... why doesn't it affect non BD-J discs then... maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction with this "integrity check" thing... :confused:

[rack04]

I just connected my BD35 and updated to firmware version 1.6. My results are as follows:

- applying fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF ... the BD35 plays for half a sec and stops

[MadMonkey57]

I just connected my BD35 and updated to firmware version 1.6. My results are as follows:

- applying fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF ... the BD35 plays for half a sec and stops

Considering Panasonic's changelog on firmware 1.6(US) and 1.2(EU), they seem to reflect the same level of bug fixing... which may be confirmed by both our experiences on applying fixclpi...

By the way, I'm still in the process of encoding of few more movies to perform tests proposed by n0mag!c (a couple of posts back)...

[azad]

I'm doing some more tests on this BD-J stuff now.

I compared the content of a original BD-J disc and a ripped disc with the regioncode removed by AnyDVD HD.
The only difference I could figure out is that AnyDVD hooks its own Java class to some manifest and signature files in the Java part of the disc.
Maybe that is something the the BD35 is looking for, or at least is stumbling about.

[MadMonkey57]

- tried fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF + INDX0100/MOBJ0100/MPLS0100/HDMV0100 + CERTIFICATE/BACKUP (empty) as produced by tsmuxer --> failed
- tried fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF + INDX0200/MOBJ0200/MPLS0200/HDMV0200 + CERTIFICATE/BACKUP (empty) as produced by tsmuxer --> failed
- tried fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF + INDX0100/MOBJ0100/MPLS0100/HDMV0100 + No CERTIFICATE folder --> failed
- tried fixclpi on CLIPINF and BACKUP/CLIPINF + INDX0200/MOBJ0200/MPLS0200/HDMV0200 + No CERTIFICATE folder --> failed

Still doing some more tests...

[MadMonkey57]

- adobe encore CS4 output minus id.bdmv in CERTIFICATE and CERTIFICATE/BACKUP --> "INCOMPATIBLE DISC"
- tsmuxer without fixclpi but a slight change in the commands (with BDEdit) --> works : once again, it makes me doubt my integrity checking assumption...

[azad]

After some tests I found the files and certificate which bring the BD35 in trouble while playing BD's containing BD-J stuff.

The BD35 doesn't seem to like the jar files where slysoft included its own javaclass and the certificate that is written in the certificate folder while backing up the original BD when regioncode removing is activated.

For testing purposes I did copy the untouched jars from the original BD to the backup folder and replaced the certificate with a certificate generated while backing up another BD without regioncode removing.
Then I burned the whole stuff on a BD-RE and it worked.

[MadMonkey57]

At last, a bit of success with the BD35 !

I've managed to use the SetStream command to force on an subtitle stream.

I've been playing around with BDEdit a lot lately, and there's a logic with tsmuxer's output I don't understand.
In a typical tsmuxer output, the "First Playback" is the interactive Movie Object #2. This object performs a few initializations (commands #0 to #3) and then "Jumps" to Title #0... But there ain't no Title #0... but only a Title #1... In addition, this Title #1 is used by Movie Object #0 and #1... At first, I tried to change this "Jump Title #0" to "Jump Title #1" and guess what (you're not gonna believe me, I know it...)? If my movie has exactly 1 subtitle, it is forced ON. If my movie has more than 1 (experimented only with 3), none of them are forced on.

Considering this highly unexpected behaviour, I decided to strip almost everything out of MovieObject.bdmv and patch index.bdmv to keep both of them as simple as possible. I set 0 for "First Playback" and "Top Menu" in index.bdmv, and chose "Movie" in the drop down box. I deleted Movie Objects #1 and #2, deleted all commands from Movie Object #0 and addded only 2 commands :
- a "SetStream" command to force an audio stream (if more than one) and force one of the subtitles (i.e SetStream 2147598338,0 for 1st audio stream and 2nd subtitle ON)
- a "Play" command to play the only playlist #0 (Play PL 0)

And this works as expected in the BD35 ! (tested on 3 movies, and F-FORW/REW and chapter seeking still OK)

Furthermore, you can get rid of the SetStream command if you don't need to force any audio or subtitle... It works fine as well !

Apart from a new working functionality, what do I conclude of all this ? Well, the "SetStream" command works inside the simple index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv whereas it doesn't work inside tsmuxer's typical index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv... Could that be some kind of a corruption in tsmuxer's output (considering the existence of fixclpi, there seem to be one in the *.clpi files, so why not in index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv then ??? On the other hand, fixclpi has always been rejected by the BD35... this is so weird...) ? Well, it could as well be a silly firmware, we can't rule this out...

I'll try some more BDEdit fun... I now want my Adobe Encore CS4 output to play...

EDIT : See post #22 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229423#post1229423) for more info and a step by step guide.

[MadMonkey57]

After some tests I found the files and certificate which bring the BD35 in trouble while playing BD's containing BD-J stuff.

The BD35 doesn't seem to like the jar files where slysoft included its own javaclass and the certificate that is written in the certificate folder while backing up the original BD when regioncode removing is activated.

For testing purposes I did copy the untouched jars from the original BD to the backup folder and replaced the certificate with a certificate generated while backing up another BD without regioncode removing.
Then I burned the whole stuff on a BD-RE and it worked.

What a stretch !!! But still a nice find !!

[G_M_C]

At last, a bit of success with the BD35 !

I've managed to use the SetStream command to force on an subtitle stream.

I've been playing around with BDEdit a lot lately, and there's a logic with tsmuxer's output I don't understand.
In a typical tsmuxer output, the "First Playback" is the interactive Movie Object #2. This object performs a few initializations (commands #0 to #3) and then "Jumps" to Title #0... But there ain't no Title #0... but only a Title #1... In addition, this Title #1 is used by Movie Object #0 and #1... At first, I tried to change this "Jump Title #0" to "Jump Title #1" and guess what (you're not gonna believe me, I know it...)? If my movie has exactly 1 subtitle, it is forced ON. If my movie has more than 1 (experimented only with 3), none of them are forced on.

Considering this highly unexpected behaviour, I decided to strip almost everything out of MovieObject.bdmv and patch index.bdmv to keep both of them as simple as possible. I set 0 for "First Playback" and "Top Menu" in index.bdmv, and chose "Movie" in the drop down box. I deleted Movie Objects #1 and #2, deleted all commands from Movie Object #0 and addded only 2 commands :
- a "SetStream" command to force an audio stream (if more than one) and force one of the subtitles (i.e SetStream 2147598338,0 for 1st audio stream and 2nd subtitle ON)
- a "Play" command to play the only playlist #0 (Play PL 0)

And this works as expected in the BD35 ! (tested on 3 movies, and F-FORW/REW and chapter seeking still OK)

Furthermore, you can get rid of the SetStream command if you don't need to force any audio or subtitle... It works fine as well !

Apart from a new working functionality, what do I conclude of all this ? Well, the "SetStream" command works inside the simple index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv whereas it doesn't work inside tsmuxer's typical index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv... Could that be some kind of a corruption in tsmuxer's output (considering the existence of fixclpi, there seem to be one in the *.clpi files, so why not in index.bdmv/MovieObject.bdmv then ??? On the other hand, fixclpi has always been rejected by the BD35... this is so weird...) ? Well, it could as well be a silly firmware, we can't rule this out...

I'll try some more BDEdit fun... I now want my Adobe Encore CS4 output to play...

That's cool !

Could you make for me a step-by-step rundown of the things you edit (cause i'm no expert at all on BDEdit ;) ) ? Please use a 1-movie, 1 subtitle, 1 audio-stream as example. I can use your explination as practice to get to know the procedure, so i get to understand it (and can "step up" to multiple audio/sub-stream stuff).

[vmrsss]

As the BD35 plays divx, I suppose it reads DVDs containing files in some MP4 or TS container, doesn't it? Has anybody tried to put h264 HD video streams and, say, AC3 in in those streams?

[MadMonkey57]

That's cool !

Could you make for me a step-by-step rundown of the things you edit (cause i'm no expert at all on BDEdit ;) ) ? Please use a 1-movie, 1 subtitle, 1 audio-stream as example. I can use your explination as practice to get to know the procedure, so i get to understand it (and can "step up" to multiple audio/sub-stream stuff).

All right, I'll try to keep it as simple as possible.
Please note that right now I can't actually run the tools and check the accuracy of this guide (well.. I am currently at work...).

Input : A main movie only BD structure (tsmuxer's Blu Ray output) with 1 video stream, 1 audio stream, 1 subtitle stream.
Output : a "stripped down to the minimum" version of the "logical" structure of the BD (by that, I mean 1 title, 1 movie object with 2 commands).
Tools : tsmuxer 1.8.8(b), BDEdit 0.17b
More info on the logical specs : The Authoritative BD FAQ: II. Physical, Logical, and Application Specifications (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397)

Most particularly Figure II-3: Simplified Organizational Structure of BD- ROM AV Format

http://www.emedialive.com/images/default.aspx?imageid=5333

All right, let's get on with the little guide now...

1/ Launch BDEdit and open your BD output

A little description of what we see here. The left pane basically reflects the content of index.bdmv while the right one reflects the content of MovieObject.bdmv.

Let's start with the left pane.

The "First Playback" points to "Interactive" and "2" --> "When the disc is inserted, start the interactive movie object #2".
The "Top Menu" points to "1" --> "When top menu button is pressed, start the movie object #1".
I don't know the reason why the movie type (interactive or movie) is specified for the "First Playback" action only and not for the "Top Menu" action... It's not that important for what we are achieving right now.
In the table below, there is a single line which represents the only Title in the BD. It is Title #1 that points to movie object #0 (OID #0 at the end of the row).

So we have our 3 values of the index table (see chart above). They refer to movie objects #0, #1 et #2. Let's move to the right pane...

In the first table above, we see 3 rows, our 3 movie objects. Each of them run its own set of commands. Try to select the rows one after another. You'll see the related commands in the bottom table. The commands are low level actions similar to assembly language instructions. They are used for instance to move values in and out of internal registers, to perform basic comparisons and branching, to play a Playlist, ...


2/ Altering the index table (that is index.bdmv, that is left pane)

We'll alter the index table so that the 3 entries (First Playback, Top Menu, Title #1) refer to a single movie object #0.
Let the "First Playback" point to "Movie" (Movie object type, list box) and "0" (Movie object #, list box).
Let the "Top Menu" point to "0" (Movie object #, list box).
Leave the Title list unchanged as the only Title (#1) already points to movie object #0.


3/ Altering the movie objects (that is MovieObject.bdmv, that is right pane)

A little warning about manipulating the tables and buttons in the right pane... BDEdit is a little buggy there... Make sure to "Save" (Window Bottom left) then "Read" (Window Top Right) from time to time to know the real content of MovieObject.bdmv, especially commands...

At first, let's get rid of movie objects #1 and #2. Select movie objects #2 (third row) in the top table and click the "minus" button on the right.
Repeat the same action with movie object #1 (second row). There's only movie object #0 left then. Make sure it is selected. You should see its commands in the bottom table. Select those commands one after another and delete them with the "minus" button on the right... until there are only 2 commands left. Make sure to "Save" and "Read" at that point, because there's one BDEdit glitch I was mentioning before... If I remember correctly, there's actually 1 command left... That's no problem, use the "plus" button on the right to add a second command.

Now, we are going to edit both commands. Select the first one, then use the command editing area at the very bottom of right pane to edit this command and choose "Set", "SetSystem", "SetStream", tick both checkboxes and choose "imm" in both listboxes. Enter 49153 in the top box and Enter 0 in the bottom one. The command should show "SetStream 49153, 0". Now select the second command and choose "Branch", "Play", "Play PL", tick the top checkbox, untick the bottom checkbox. Choose "imm" in the top listbox. Enter 0 in the top box. The command should show "Play PL 0". BDEdit might show an error message in red in the command editing area. Don't pay attention to it, it's another glitch here... Do a "Save" and "Read" again, just to make sure both commands are what they should be.

Save and Exit BDEdit.


4/ Final steps

Go to your BD file structure. Notice BDEdit's backup files (index.bdmv.backup and MovieObject.bdmv.backup). Delete them. Also make sure to copy the newly generated index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv over to BACKUP dir.


That's it, you're done ! Burn and enjoy !!

Let me know how it goes...

[MadMonkey57]

As the BD35 plays divx, I suppose it reads DVDs containing files in some MP4 or TS container, doesn't it? Has anybody tried to put h264 HD video streams and, say, AC3 in in those streams?

Sorry, never tried MP4 / TS / MKV or other containers... I think i saw (somewhere) reports saying that only non HD divx worked, in AVI I presume, ...

[deank]

I've been playing around with BDEdit a lot lately, and there's a logic with tsmuxer's output I don't understand.
In a typical tsmuxer output, the "First Playback" is the interactive Movie Object #2. This object performs a few initializations (commands #0 to #3) and then "Jumps" to Title #0... But there ain't no Title #0... but only a Title #1... In addition, this Title #1 is used by Movie Object #0 and #1..

Just to clarify something... the logic you don't understand...

http://www.deanbg.com/bdedit.jpg

Title #0 is you TOP menu.
In the screenshot case (the one my program generates) the logic is:

1) First play is 21, so player executes program No:21 (top movieobject.bdmv)
2) prog#21 initializes some registers and jumps to TITLE#0
3) Title #0 has program id#20 (you can see it at TOP MENU dropdown on the top left)
4) program id#20 usualy is top-menu buttons and stuff...
...
Most titles' programs finish with jumping to title #0 on finish, i.e. back to top menu.
That's why you see Jump to Title#0 in every program segment.
if you change the jump to the next title# then you'll have sequental playback of all titles

[MadMonkey57]

...Title #0 is you TOP menu...

Thanks for the tip ! :thanks:

[Skilgannon]

Don't know if this will help, but I followed the authors instructions and I got an Encore CS4 BDMV project burnt to DVD -R with menus and multiple titles to play perfectly on a UK Panasonic BD-30 player with the latest firmware, and a UK Samsung BD-P1500 with firmware version 1.3.
"http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15285018#post15285018"

[MadMonkey57]

Don't know if this will help, but I followed the authors instructions and I got an Encore CS4 BDMV project burnt to DVD -R with menus and multiple titles to play perfectly on a UK Panasonic BD-30 player with the latest firmware, and a UK Samsung BD-P1500 with firmware version 1.3.
"http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15285018#post15285018"

Well, Skilgannon, this whole thread seems very interesting... And so does this tool they're talking about... I need to do some reading (more than 1700 posts to browse through...) ... some understanding... some testing... and hopefully some reporting !

But it sure looks damn promising !

Thanks buddy ! :thanks:

[MadMonkey57]

Well, I've read very interesting bits of this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815296) and here's a quick summary as well as the conclusions that can be drawn regarding the BD35's ability to play BD5/9s.

For the sake of consitency, some terminology first :
- BD5/9 : a BD compliant structure on red laser DVD5/DVD9 (and there is an official standard (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397#iii) for this)
- AVCHD : an AVCHD compliant structure on red laser DVD5/DVD9 (and there is an official standard (http://www.avchd-info.org) for this too). For short, AVCHD is a stripped-down version of BD specs (no menus, no subtitles, limited video and audio features, ...)

tsmuxer's blu ray output basically is :
- a M2TS file (the movie itself)
- a CLPI file (the movie clip, part of BD logical organisation (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229423#post1229423), referencing the M2TS file)
- a MPLS file (the playlist, part of BD logical organisation, referencing the CLPI file)
- a index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv (the index and movie objects table, part of BD logical organisation)

The multiplexing into a BD compliant M2TS file and the building of BD compliant CLPI and MPLS files are actually performed by tsmuxer whereas index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv basically are extracts of a typical AVCHD output from Nero Vision. Therefore, tsmuxer's output is hybrid AVCHD/BD. An AVCHD compliant BD player (like the BD35) "sees" an AVCHD disc and therefore accepts to play it, even though the actual movie is not AVCHD compliant but BD compliant. That's the beauty of the trick. You get access to most of the features of BD for your own creations on red laser DVDs !

All of this is consistent with what we have achieved so far with the BD35, that is playing tsmuxer's output (works even with some BDEdit customization (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1228707#post1228707)).

So why does the BD35 reject the content authored by some commercial software like Adobe Encore CS4 (and others (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11425#ixp)) ? Because those generate a whole BD compliant structure, including index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv. The BD35 doesn't "see" an AVCHD disc and then rejects it.

So what can we do then ??? Well, a guy named wirepole who runs a chinese (AFAICT) blog here (http://wirepole.spaces.live.com) created a program called AVCHD-Patcher (current version 1.05). This handy piece of software turns a BD compliant index.bdmv to an AVCHD compliant index.bdmv. And that is the most important part of the whole procedure written by alluringreality (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15285018#post15285018) to turn a BD structure to a hybrid AVCHD/BD structure.

I haven't tested that out yet (dough !) but I have read reports saying that it works with almost every SAP including the BD35.

EDIT: Tested successfully with Adobe Encore CS4
EDIT 2: See this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1236812#post1236812) for a comparison of index.bdmv from Adobe Encore CS4 / Adobe Encore CS4 Patched with AVCHD Patcher / tsmuxer output

[rack04]

So it's still a mystery why the BD35 will not play Blu-ray output from tsMuxeR with fixclpi and compliant Blu-ray output from professional authoring programs?

[MadMonkey57]

So it's still a mystery why the BD35 will not play Blu-ray output from tsMuxeR with fixclpi and compliant Blu-ray output from professional authoring programs?

fixclpi is supposed to fix a bug in CLPI file generated by tsmuxer. The thing is this bug affects people very randomly. Some people complain that F-FORW/REW and chapter seeking doesn't work without fixclpi, some other people don't notice a difference with or without fixclpi, and some others (like us BD35 owners) on the contrary can't apply fixclpi at all as it completely breaks playability... I admit this is very odd... AFAIK even jdobbs (fixclpi author) doesn't understand (yet) this strange behaviour.

Regarding your concern about professional authoring programs, the output they generate is supposed to be burnt on (blu laser) BD discs and not (red laser) DVD discs... That's the reason why the hybrid AVCHD/BR trick is needed.

[rack04]

fixclpi is supposed to fix a bug in CLPI file generated by tsmuxer. The thing is this bug affects people very randomly. Some people complain that F-FORW/REW and chapter seeking doesn't work without fixclpi, some other people don't notice a difference with or without fixclpi, and some others (like us BD35 owners) on the contrary can't apply fixclpi at all as it completely breaks playability... I admit this is very odd... AFAIK even jdobbs (fixclpi author) doesn't understand (yet) this strange behaviour.

Regarding your concern about professional authoring programs, the output they generate is supposed to be burnt on (blu laser) BD discs and not (red laser) DVD discs... That's the reason why the hybrid AVCHD/BR trick is needed.

That makes sense. Thanks for the explaination.

[rack04]

I was reading through the BD35 specifications and found the following playable disc notes:

BD-ROM

Version 2

BD-RE

Version 3 (Single Layer, Dual Layer), JPEG*6

BD-R

Version 2 (Single Layer, Dual Layer)

DVD-RAM

DVD Video Recording format, AVCHD format*8,
JPEG*4

DVD-R/DVD-R DL

DVD-Video format*1
DVD-Video Recording format*1
AVCHD format*1*8
DivX*7

DVD-RW

DVD-Video format*1
DVD-Video Recording format*1
AVCHD format*1*8

DVD+R/DVD+R DL/DVD+RW
DVD-Video format*1
AVCHD format*1*8

*1 Finalizing is necessary

*4 The total combined maximum number of recognizable picture
contents and folders: 3000 picture contents and 300 folders.

*6 The total combined maximum number of recognizable picture
contents and folders: 9999 picture contents and 300 folders.

*8 AVCHD format V1.0

Could it be that the current players don't support BD-5/9?

[laserfan]

Could it be that the current players don't support BD-5/9?Somewhere else here I linked to a poster over at AVSForum "Insiders" area that BD players were NEVER MEANT to play recordable media of ANY kind (not just DVD5/9 but even BD-R). That most player firmware allowed it in order to be able to play genned-up discs for trade shows & whatnot, but only as a temporary matter until the format got a toe-hold in the market & took off. This guy suggested mfrs might start removing the ability to read these discs, and at least the LG BH200 lost such ability going from April to June firmware.

If you remember that there was an effort way-back-when to limit CD Music playback to only certain types of media, you can imagine the above being attempted again.

In any case it seems some players play 'em, some players don't, some used-to but don't anymore, and nobody seems to know for sure WHAT the deal is re: playback of BD files on red-laser discs (except of course that the industry absolutely HATES IT that anybody at all is able to make backup copies of their products, and then play them back on a stb player).

[MadMonkey57]

I was reading through the BD35 specifications and found the following playable disc notes:

BD-ROM

Version 2

BD-RE

Version 3 (Single Layer, Dual Layer), JPEG*6

BD-R

Version 2 (Single Layer, Dual Layer)

DVD-RAM

DVD Video Recording format, AVCHD format*8,
JPEG*4

DVD-R/DVD-R DL

DVD-Video format*1
DVD-Video Recording format*1
AVCHD format*1*8
DivX*7

DVD-RW

DVD-Video format*1
DVD-Video Recording format*1
AVCHD format*1*8

DVD+R/DVD+R DL/DVD+RW
DVD-Video format*1
AVCHD format*1*8

*1 Finalizing is necessary

*4 The total combined maximum number of recognizable picture
contents and folders: 3000 picture contents and 300 folders.

*6 The total combined maximum number of recognizable picture
contents and folders: 9999 picture contents and 300 folders.

*8 AVCHD format V1.0

Could it be that the current players don't support BD-5/9?


I have never heard of any SAP spec claiming it could read BD5/9...

As you can see, AVCHD is well supported by the BD35 which is actually a good thing regarding our quest for hybrid AVCHD/BR playability.

[MadMonkey57]

... BD players were NEVER MEANT to play recordable media of ANY kind (not just DVD5/9 but even BD-R)...

Well the specs of the BD35 seem to disagree with that...

... That most player firmware allowed it in order to be able to play genned-up discs for trade shows & whatnot, but only as a temporary matter until the format got a toe-hold in the market & took off. This guy suggested mfrs might start removing the ability to read these discs, and at least the LG BH200 lost such ability going from April to June firmware...

I would certainly not rule this out...

... In any case it seems some players play 'em, some players don't, some used-to but don't anymore, and nobody seems to know for sure WHAT the deal is re: playback of BD files on red-laser discs...

That's the reason why a created this thread... :)

[MadMonkey57]

Just a quick post to report a success in playing Adobe Encore CS4's output (1 main menu, 9 movies) on red laser DVD with the use of AVCHD Patcher !!!

See this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1229828#post1229828) for all the details.

[rack04]

As you can see, AVCHD is well supported by the BD35 which is actually a good thing regarding our quest for hybrid AVCHD/BR playability.

I wouldn't say it's my quest for hybrid AVCHD/BD playability. I'd rather have BD playability. jdobbs mentioned that BD Rebuilder uses the index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv from the original disc. Wouldn't this mean that these discs are BD playability?

[MadMonkey57]

I wouldn't say it's my quest for hybrid AVCHD/BD playability. I'd rather have BD playability. jdobbs mentioned that BD Rebuilder uses the index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv from the original disc. Wouldn't this mean that these discs are BD playability?

The index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv from the original BD are BD compliant but not AVCHD compliant. The BD35 refuses to play BD compliant index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv on red laser DVD. At the moment, we have no other option but going for hybrid AVCHD/BD to play on the BD35. The other option would be a new firmware that is a bit more... tolerant.

[jamos]

Panasonic BD players should play AVCHD disks, have you tried TSMuxer with a complient BD Video stream (720p,1080i, 1080p) to create a BD structure and burn that to DVD with udf 2.5 format just to test that the player can play a AVCHD disk?

[rack04]

Panasonic BD players should play AVCHD disks, have you tried TSMuxer with a complient BD Video stream (720p,1080i, 1080p) to create a BD structure and burn that to DVD with udf 2.5 format just to test that the player can play a AVCHD disk?

Please read through the thread.

[MadMonkey57]

@rack04, G_M_C and others,
Any feedback on your side from what we've found out so far ?

By the way, I have another thing that bothers me with these encodes on red laser DVD. None of them play @24p. I suspect several possible reasons :
- can x264 handle it thru specific (combination of) settings ?
- or can x264 handle it at all ?
- nothing to do with x264... does it depend on the movie fps ? (24000/1001, 24)
- nothing to do with all of this... can the multiplexing be responsible for this ?
- not at all.. can it be a side effect of the AVCHD/BD approach ?

The latter is my favorite. :)

EDIT : Please see post #44 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1231156#post1231156) to see what I mean by "None of them play @24p"

[rack04]

I just finished tested a AVCHD/BD on DVD-9 using the following x264 command line:

"%x264_PATH%" --pass 2 --bitrate %DESIRED_BITRATE% --stats "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%OUTPUT_FILENAME%.stats" --level 4.1 --keyint 24
--min-keyint 1 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --b-pyramid --weightb --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --subme 7 --trellis 2
--partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --vbv-maxrate 24000 --qcomp 0.5 --me umh --merange 24 --threads auto
--thread-input --sar 1:1 --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%OUTPUT_FILENAME%-output.h264"
"%INPUT_VIDEO%" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd

This disc plays fine without using fixclpi and is unplayable when I use fixclpi. Though, the ff/rew is a litte unresponsive.

[MadMonkey57]

...Though, the ff/rew is a litte unresponsive...

It may come from your high vbv settings... just an assumption...

[MadMonkey57]

@rack04, G_M_C and others,
Any feedback on your side from what we've found out so far ?

By the way, I have another thing that bothers me with these encodes on red laser DVD. None of them play @24p. I suspect several possible reasons :
- can x264 handle it thru specific (combination of) settings ?
- or can x264 handle it at all ?
- nothing to do with x264... does it depend on the movie fps ? (24000/1001, 24)
- nothing to do with all of this... can the multiplexing be responsible for this ?
- not at all.. can it be a side effect of the AVCHD/BD approach ?

The latter is my favorite. :)

This post is so awkward :eek: it requires a major update. When I'm saying "24p", i'm talking about this feature you find in LCDs and SAPs. Sony calls it "24p True Cinema". I think Panasonic refers to it as "24p playback". It is the ability to "view" the movie at exactly 24 frames per second, LCD refreshes 24 (maybe 48 or 72) frames per second (no 50/60fps), SAP throws exactly 24 frames untouched... It should prevent judder effects.

Hope it clears the confusion...

[rack04]

This post is so awkward :eek: it requires a major update. When I'm saying "24p", i'm talking about this feature you find in LCDs and SAPs. Sony calls it "24p True Cinema". I think Panasonic refers to it as "24p playback". It is the ability to "view" the movie at exactly 24 frames per second, LCD refreshes 24 (maybe 48 or 72) frames per second (no 50/60fps), SAP throws exactly 24 frames untouched... It should prevent judder effects.

Hope it clears the confusion...

My display isn't capable of 24 fps so I wont be of much help.

[laserfan]

I just finished tested a AVCHD/BD on DVD-9 using the following x264 command line:

"%x264_PATH%" --pass 2 --bitrate %DESIRED_BITRATE% --stats "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%OUTPUT_FILENAME%.stats" --level 4.1 --keyint 24
--min-keyint 1 --ref 3 --mixed-refs --bframes 3 --b-adapt 2 --b-pyramid --weightb --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --subme 7 --trellis 2
--partitions p8x8,b8x8,i4x4,i8x8 --8x8dct --vbv-bufsize 30000 --vbv-maxrate 24000 --qcomp 0.5 --me umh --merange 24 --threads auto
--thread-input --sar 1:1 --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "%WORKING_DIRECTORY%\%OUTPUT_FILENAME%-output.h264"
"%INPUT_VIDEO%" --mvrange 511 --aud --nal-hrd

This disc plays fine without using fixclpi and is unplayable when I use fixclpi. Though, the ff/rew is a litte unresponsive.
But the clpi file is not generated by x264. What are you using (and version) to mux to DVD-9. If tsMuxeR what is your meta file...

[rack04]

But the clpi file is not generated by x264. What are you using (and version) to mux to DVD-9. If tsMuxeR what is your meta file...

Yes I used tsMuxeR 1.8.8(b).

MUXOPT --no-pcr-on-video-pid --new-audio-pes --blu-ray --vbr --auto-chapters=5 --vbv-len=500
V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC, "F:\Blu-ray\Transformers-muxed.mkv", fps=23.976, insertSEI, contSPS, track=1, lang=eng
A_AC3, "F:\Blu-ray\Transformers-muxed.mkv", track=2, lang=eng

[rack04]

It may come from your high vbv settings... just an assumption...

Actually, I think I was incorrect. It turns out even the retail disc has this "unresponsive" behavior with ff/rew. I just got the player so I'm not used to it.

BTW, from what I've read these settings are not "high".

[MadMonkey57]

Actually, I think I was incorrect. It turns out even the retail disc has this "unresponsive" behavior with ff/rew. I just got the player so I'm not used to it.

BTW, from what I've read these settings are not "high".

You're probably right, I'm not "up to date" on this topic...
I thought we ought to stick to AVCHD specs, that is +/- 18mbps for video/audio/subs... Would you mind tell me the latest findings ?

[rack04]

You're probably right, I'm not "up to date" on this topic...
I thought we ought to stick to AVCHD specs, that is +/- 18mbps for video/audio/subs... Would you mind tell me the latest findings ?

Here is some info that I collected.

- Now x264 have really better vbv support. Set simply max bitrate at 3x your max bitrate (it's enought in vaste majority of case) with 24 Mbps limit for BD9 (you must mux audio too ... DVD3x is for complete video/audio/sub mux and m2ts mux is not really optimal).

- GOP must be at 1 sec if you use max bitrate > 15 Mbps and 2 sec for max bitrate < 15 Mbps (24 or 48 frames for 1080p24).

For DVD3x the max bitrate is 30.24 Mbps. With 24 Mbps for video you have 6.24 Mbps for other stream (PCM, DD, DTS, TrueHD and subtitles). I use 640kbps AC3 so this gives me a little wiggle room.