Regarding AnyDVD AI technology versus other rippers

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

Is MKBv9 Handled by Slysoft???

Yes, AnyDVD HD has handled MKBv9 since v6.4.6.5 (September 3, 2008).

[setarip_old]

(I know AnyDVD is a "favorite" here - I'm just trying to make an unbiased comparison)

From the AnyDVD History:AnyDVD History
6.4.8.5 2008 11 16
- New: Added option to enable/disable creation of .dvd file to image ripper
- New (DVD): Added support for new protectionsDoes this refer to the specific protection of the "WALL-E" DVDs? If so, I would once again question the true Artificial Intelligence of the AnyDVD "A.I." engine vis-a-vis that of DVDFab HD Decrypter's "PathPlayer" Artificial Intelligence engine. After all, I used a version of DVDFab HD Decrypter released way back in April to make a good rip of this DVD...

[SamuriHL]

(I know AnyDVD is a "favorite" here - I'm just trying to make an unbiased comparison)

From the AnyDVD History:Does this refer to the specific protection of the "WALL-E" DVDs? If so, I would once again question the true Artificial Intelligence of the AnyDVD "A.I." engine vis-a-vis that of DVDFab HD Decrypter's "Pathfinder" Artificial Intelligence engine. After all, I used a version of DVDFab HD Decrypter released way back in April to make a good rip of this DVD...

Are you claiming that there has been no improvement to the "AI" in DVDFab HD Decrypter since it was first introduced? That the "AI" from the very first version can handle any and all titles? Then why release updates if that's the case? I seem to recall reading that the latest beta seems to have an issue with this particular disc in Clone mode. That would appear to be a bug. As Peer said the last time you made this "unbiased" comparison, bugs do happen from time to time. NO software product ever written is immune from that. That most definitely includes DVDFab HD Decrypter and AnyDVD both.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

Hi!Then why release updates if that's the case?With regard to DVDFab HD Decrypter, from what I saw, the "update" to v.5.0 was intended to bring users closer to having to buy the "full" version ("Platinum", I believe)

I find it humorous that you put the word "unbiased" in quotes, as I've never been (and likely, never will be) a supporter of the publisher of the DVDFab Decrypter programs.

My approach to ripping standard DVDs has been and continues to be - If a program I'm using continues to successfully rip DVDs, I continue to use it WITHOUT updates, thereby avoiding the possibility of any newly introduce bugs. That's precisely why I never updated "RipIt4Me" past v.1.6.4, well past the program's being "shut down".

Similarly, that's why I continue to use v.4120 of (freeware) DVDFabHD Decrypter - and have no way of knowing of any problems regarding "Clone mode", which is not an available function/feature of the freeware program (Only the payware "Platinum" version)...

[SamuriHL]

I think we have very different philosophies on this one then. I don't see updates as a bad thing. Updates tend to improve a product over time. Would you, if you were a windows user for example, forgo windows updates and service packs under the same principle that it could introduce new bugs? I don't find that concept to be overly valid, but, that's simply a matter of opinion I guess. The fact remains that DVDFab HD Decrypter, RipItForMe, and AnyDVD all have their pros and cons. And not one of them is without bugs. What matters more to me is whether those bugs get fixed in a timely fashion. I'm assuming they probably do with DVDFab HD Decrypter...I don't really know as I don't keep up with it these days. I do know that Slysoft updates AnyDVD when necessary and the updates are usually very timely. If you're happy using an older version of a product, that's fine with me. But there's going to come a time when it fails on some disc or another and at that point you'll have to decide whether to update or not. As for me, I'd rather just keep current knowing that any bugs that do crop up will be fixed quickly.

[setarip_old]

But there's going to come a time when it fails on some disc or another and at that point you'll have to decide whether to update or not.Yes - But, as I've now stated several times previously, that time has not yet come regarding the April 2008 release of the freeware ripper DVDFab HD Decrypter...

BTW - You'll notice that, regarding "WALL-E", I was not able to report successful ripping by what IS my favorite (payware) one-click program, DVD95Copy Pro - because the most recent version (and all previous versions, as well) can't successfully rip it. So, just like AnyDVD was apparently "hardwire"modified, I guess DVD95CopyPro will need another "plugin" (which obviously has nothing to do with adaptable, self-changing, Artificial Intelligence) to deal with this latest version of Disney's copy protection. I can only speculate that, based on its continued success, the Artificial Intelligence ("PathPlayer") in the freeware DVDFab HD Decrypter v.4120 is closer to true A.I than anything else presently available.

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

setarip_old, I suggest that you reread Peer's reply to you in the Leatherheads thread because you either never understood what he wrote or you have forgotten. No one has ever claimed the A.I. Scanner was self-changing other than you. It confuses me that you still hold onto this false belief.

[SamuriHL]

Yes - But, as I've now stated several times previously, that time has not yet come regarding the April 2008 release of the freeware ripper DVDFab HD Decrypter...

BTW - You'll notice that, regarding "WALL-E", I was not able to report successful ripping by what IS my favorite (payware) one-click program, DVD95Copy Pro - because the most recent version (and all previous versions, as well) can't successfully rip it. So, just like AnyDVD was apparently "hardwire"modified, I guess DVD95CopyPro will need another "plugin" (which obviously has nothing to do with adaptable, self-changing, Artificial Intelligence) to deal with this latest version of Disney's copy protection. I can only speculate that, based on its continued success, the Artificial Intelligence ("Pathfinder") in the freeware DVDFab HD Decrypter v.4120 is closer to true A.I than anything else presently available.

I don't know the specifics, but, I don't think the fundamentals of the AI scanner have changed. But, I do believe several bugs have been fixed in this area. Usually, and again I could be wrong, it's a matter of AnyDVD detecting when to use the AI scanner, not a problem with the scanner itself. I'd be curious, for example, if the default setting was changed to "always enable" if an older version of AnyDVD would be able to deal with these new titles. Again, I don't know. But it's an interesting question. As I haven't bought a DVD in over a year, I am not really the one to answer that question. Nonetheless, I still don't see the point of sticking with potentially buggy software. Sure, it works for you, but, who's to say it hasn't been improved to be more efficient or fix hard to notice bugs (is it dropping titlesets it shouldn't be, for example? Because it falsely thinks it's an invalid titleset or whatever). It may "successfully" rip the title, but, is it a flawless rip? I don't have to question that when using the latest version of my chosen software.

[setarip_old]

is it a flawless rip?Yes...I don't have to question that when using the latest version of my chosen software.Not any more or less than I do... As I haven't bought a DVD in over a year, I am not really the one to answer that question.Then, respectfully, you are also not the one to bring forth such a hypothesis...

[SamuriHL]

Hmmm, that's interesting. I wasn't aware that being an expert in a subject was a prerequisite for positing a theory. Clearly you must be an expert by your "log analysis" of AnyDVD's AI scanner technology and are in a much better position than I am to create a hypothesis based on....um, nothing, really. I simply posed the question as to whether or not an older version of AnyDVD with AI scanner always enabled could handle these newer discs. I didn't realize that in order to ask that question I also had to be able to also answer it.:rolleyes:

[setarip_old]

@DrinkLyeAndDyeNo one has ever claimed the A.I. Scanner was self-changing other than you.I'd suggest to you that you are very much mistaken. By definition (The following one is from "Wikipedia"):Artificial intelligence (AI) is the intelligence of machines and the branch of computer science which aims to create it. Major AI textbooks define the field as "the study and design of intelligent agents,"[1] where an intelligent agent is a system that perceives its environment and takes actions which maximize its chances of success.[2] John McCarthy, who coined the term in 1956,[3] defines it as "the science and engineering of making intelligent machines."Perhaps if an avid supporter of AnyDVD, or anyone else for that matter, could explain how an UNCHANGED 6 month-old program (DVDFab HD Decrypter v.4120)with claimed A.I. ("PathPlayer") IS apparently able to adapt a brand new protection scheme on a just-released DVD, while the very current version of another program with claimed A.I. required additional modification in order to rip the identical DVD, I'd be all ears.

The fact that you and others (SamuriHL and Wombler, etc.) are avid supporters of AnyDVD is admirable (especially since the publishers are presently the only ones with a handle on BluRay) and should ne appreciated by the publishers. Actually, I'm looking forward to the day they "go public" and make a public stock offering ;>} This doesn't, however, alter the facts.

Perhaps, I should have simply asked:

How is it possible that a 6 month old version (4120) of (freeware) DVDFab HD Decrypter is capable of perfectly and properly ripping a DVD that, at first, no other (freeware or payware) ripping program could rip? Is it possibly the only program that has a true Artificial Intelligence engine?

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

Your debating skills are excellent, especially with regard to setting up "straw men". Keep up the good work ;>}

[SamuriHL]

LOL :) I have nothing further that would be constructive that I could add to this debate so I'm going to let it go now.

I do think my question is a valid one. You say that DVDFab HD Decrypter, an old version, can rip the latest titles. Is this with PathPlayer fully enabled? (I don't know how the technology works exactly. Is it always on? Does it enable itself when an issue is found?) In AnyDVD it's not enabled unless a problem is found and then it's turned on. I think a lot of bugs have happened there. Not necessarily in the scanner itself. I'd be curious if someone with one of these later discs (Get Smart, Wall-E, etc) would be able to test a version of AnyDVD from April with AI scanner set to always on doing a Rip disc to hard drive... function and doing the same thing with DVDFab HD Decrypter. I'd be curious to see if the results were the same.

Anyway, that's it. I don't have anything further to add to this discussion and don't want to get off topic.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHLIs this with PathPlayer fully enabled?I have "PathPlayer" set to "Always enabled"...

Sounds like you're referring to the explanation offered by "Peer" regarding "Leatherheads", included in my response here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1188765&postcount=13

If so, I don't see that as being a satisfactory "explanation" regarding the abilities of AnyDVD's "A.I" engine...

[SamuriHL]

@SamuriHLI have "PathPlayer" set to "Always enabled"...

Then a fair comparison would be an older AnyDVD version with the same always enabled setting...Otherwise you can't really compare the results.

[setarip_old]

No it wouldn't, again, if the MODIFICATION to AnyDVD on 11/16 was required regarding the copy protection of "WALL-E":AnyDVD History
6.4.8.5 2008 11 16
- New: Added option to enable/disable creation of .dvd file to image ripper
- New (DVD): Added support for new protections - and a post in the Slysoft forum appears to indicate that the update was specifically regarding "WALL-E":version is 6.4.8.5 which is supposed to deal with Wall-E.

[SamuriHL]

Um, I hate to point this out YET AGAIN, but, that update could be related to fixing Wall-E with AnyDVD's default settings, which is NOT to have the AI scanner always enabled. But you really can't say for sure with what you've posted, now, can you?

[setarip_old]

Just as you stated your lack of knowledge regarding DVDFab HD Decrypter, I am not a user of AnyDVD. Don't users have the ability to turn the "A.I. Scanner" on or off manually? If they can, are you suggesting that the publishers would have to modify the program DESPITE knowing that simply turning on the "A.I. Scanner" would result in a good rip - and advising users to do so? Unless I've misunderstood you, such an action would be simply silly.

On the other hand, if the program DOESN'T permit the user to turn the "A.I. Scanner" on or off, I'd ask why?

[SamuriHL]

The default is "automatic" where AnyDVD itself tries to determine when the AI scanner is necessary. As AnyDVD is an "on demand" protection remover, it doesn't have the luxury of scanning a disc for 20 minutes at a time to determine the copy protection. Users expect it to be quick. Sometimes AnyDVD guesses wrong when the AI scanner is needed. So, yes, there is an option to always enable it which will take longer to initially scan the disc. So yes, I am saying that the update may be to fix the logic that AnyDVD uses to determine whether the disc needs to be scanned by the AI scanner. Peer said this to you the last time this discussion came up. Hence, just because the history shows that AnyDVD was fixed for this particular disc, it does NOT necessarily mean the AI scanner was unable to handle it. AnyDVD was simply unable to handle it with the default settings(potentially).

[setarip_old]

I asked:Don't users have the ability to turn the "A.I. Scanner" on or off manually?

You responded:So, yes, there is an option to always enable it which will take longer to initially scan the disc.

The question was whether a user could turn it on and off, not "always enable it".

If it can be turned on and off, I'm CERTAIN that the publishers would advise all users that as S.O.P., when confronted with a new problematic DVD, turn the scanner ON, to see if that was all that was required for a good rip. Then, if that still didn't result in a good rip, the publishers would, as they did on 11/16, respond to forum postings of the inability of the program to properly rip "WALL-E", by MODIFYING the AnyDVD program. Anything else defies logic, as surely, at least some users would know enough to turn on the "A.I. Scanner" and then post their results...

(No matter how you slice it, SOMETHING transparent to the user had to be changed in order for AnyDVD to be able to properly rip "WALL-E")

[SamuriHL]

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue semantics with you. There is NO option to "turn it on or off". It's either automatic, always enabled, or always disabled. What you continually fail to realize is that AnyDVD was not designed to rip discs. It's designed as an on demand protection removal driver. By being on demand in nature, there are certain expectations from users that it be able to scan a disc quickly. That's in contrast to ripping a disc where you can take as much time as you like to fully scan every aspect of a disc. Since you fail to realize this important distinction, it's impossible for you to realize why they would rather fix the automatic setting if it's not working right rather than to simply say to users "hey just go enable the always enabled option". I'm not saying I know one way or the other as to whether or not the always enabled option would be able to enable a user to remove the protection successfully. I only pointed out the possibility that the AI scanner may indeed deal with these discs if the default setting was changed.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHLThere is NO option to "turn it on or off".Despite or regardless of your definition of the purpose of AnyDVD, among other purposes, it most certainly is used as a DVD ripper. As such, it seems it would be a simple enough thing for the publishers to allow the user to turn the "A.I. Scanner" on or off at will, when one or the other setting fails to yield satisfactory results.

As you said several posts earlier, I don't think there's anything further that I can add to our discussion...

[Koti]

There is NO option to "turn it on or off". It's either automatic, always enabled, or always disabled.


As such, it seems it would be a simple enough thing for the publishers to allow the user to turn the "A.I. Scanner" on or off at will, when one or the other setting fails to yield satisfactory results.


Wouldn't "always disabled" and "always enabled" qualify as "on" or "off" at will ?

[Ajax_Undone]

When in doubt ask peer I am sure he can solve your issues...

[setarip_old]

@Koti

I chose not to ask that question, presuming that "SamuriHL" was making a distinction based on personal knowledge of the program.

[setarip_old]

@Ajax_Undone

That was already done - and "Peer" chose not to respond:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1188765&postcount=13

[ojdidit]

Setarip-old

Going back in this thread, you say there is no need to update your version of DVD Fab HD because it hasn't failed you yet. Recall last weeks discussion of ripping "Get Smart", when you admitted that it did fail you, but your DVD95COPY handled the disc successfully. I'd say the time to update was last week.

[SamuriHL]

@Koti

I chose not to ask that question, presuming that "SamuriHL" was making a distinction based on personal knowledge of the program.

I was simply making the distinction based upon what the options say in AnyDVD settings. I would think that always enabled would = on, but, when I suggested that a few post earlier, this is what you replied:


The question was whether a user could turn it on and off, not "always enable it".


Hence why I made the distinction.

[setarip_old]

@DrinkLyeAndDieNo one has ever claimed the A.I. Scanner was self-changing other than you.You are mistaken.

See the following quote of none other than Slysoft's CEO:As quoted at PC Mag online:
Quote:
"The AI Scanner in AnyDVD is a new, pro-active copy protection circumvention method," said Giancarlo Bettini, SlySoft's chief executive, in a statement. "It allows the user to make safety backups of his DVD movies even if the newest anti-piracy technology is used. It is our belief that the AI Scanner will even work on protections yet to be released, so we see this as a future-proof technology. This is indeed a hard nut to crack for the copy protection industry."

[SamuriHL]

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1188585#post1188585

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

< removed >

[shadowflit]

It is our belief that the AI Scanner will even work on protections yet to be released, so we see this as a future-proof technology.

This by no means implies anything is self-changing. The word AI has come to carry a lot of baggage with it, but AI describes many types of systems. While it could be possible to build a system that learns new protection schemes as it encounters them and integrates that knowledge into future decryptions, that is not what these systems do. (Afterall, if that were the case, the developers would have nothing left to do, and our programs would be uploading their data to the cloud for integration and redistribution)

Just like a virus scanner uses heuristics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic_(computer_science)) to help guard against viruses not in the definition database, these 'AI decryption systems' are looking for parts of the disc that don't belong to the video stream and removing them. If you read the wiki page, you'll note that heuristics might not always get the best solution, but they generally get some solution faster than the non-heuristic counterpart. If we look at on-the-fly decryption vs more generalized ripping, it seems logical to optimize on-the-fly decryption for speed as much as possible, where that design choice can be reversed when time becomes less of a factor (to increase the chances of getting a solution that accurately decrypts the disc).

While the above could explain the AnyDVD update, I haven't used the program and don't intend to weigh in any further on that discussion. However, I think it is very important to understand to limitations of current AI, and not attribute it abilities it does not possess.

[frank]

setarip_old:
1) Have you successfully used your described procedures on this SPECIFIC DVD (R1 "WALL_E" - or any other Region version tha has the identical copy protection scheme)?

2) Your "simple old way" appears to be less "simple" than using one of the "one-click" methodologies (used by the "masses") discussed here.

3) If you're a registered owner of AnyDVD, there's no reason to use "an old" version of it - and by using the current version (based on postings by others to this thread), it would seem there's no need to use ISOBuster and PgcEdit with it
WALL_E isn't published yet here. Must wait, then will reply :(
I edit my DVDs in every case with PgcEdit and VobBlanker to remove unwanted cells/streams.
Crippled (non-standard) DVDs with damaged sectors are rare in my collection. I use a free decrypter like DVDshrink, no need for AnyDVD. Why buying payware??
Yes, the ISO buster way needs more time, but that does my PC in the background.

[Doom9]

@setarip_old: please explain to me how this isn't just another one of your Slysoft bashing threads - it sure looks like that to me and it's about time you stopped for good.

[setarip_old]

@Doom9@setarip_old: please explain to me how this isn't just another one of your Slysoft bashing threadsI'd be glad to do so:

I wasn't "bashing" AnyDVD at all, I was just attempting to get a valid, unbiased comparison of to competing products, including a meaningful definition of "A.I." - and I didn't resurrect/start this thread, nor did I re-post my previously deleted quote of the Slysoft CEO. Please see:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1216864&postcount=22

I will be pleased to make no further observations/comparisons of SlySoft products...

**EDIT** If anything, I have been extremely supportive of Slysoft regarding its business acumen. Perhaps, if you'd be good enough to read the following posts (and, perhaps, some of the negative posts of others in the same thread), you'll agree that I'm not in any way attempting to "bash" Slysoft or its products:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1120457&postcount=12
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1120785&postcount=29
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1120989&postcount=46
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1121267&postcount=55
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1123428&postcount=106

[Guest]

I broke the thread out because I found the discussion to be interesting. The battle of ideas is an essential element of the search for truth. :)

[setarip_old]

@Doom9

I just realized that you very likely would not be aware of the addenda to my previous post, so I'll repeat it (and hope that you'll acknowledge reading it):

If anything, I have been extremely supportive of Slysoft regarding its business acumen. Perhaps, if you'd be good enough to read the following posts (and, perhaps, some of the negative posts of others in the same thread), you'll agree that I'm not in any way attempting to "bash" Slysoft or its products:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1120457&postcount=12
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1120785&postcount=29
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1120989&postcount=46
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1121267&postcount=55
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1123428&postcount=106

[jinjin_jp]

There newly happened the problem which was afraid.
About Cars(no-RipGUard vesion), playable cell is removed even when setting of AIscanner is auto.

Before there is no problem when setting auto, but problem when always enable.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=140561

I reported in AnyDVD Forum.
I hope reliability of AIscanner itself rather than avoiding the probllem by enable/disable of AIscanner.

Regards.