Having to wait 5 days...

[Johno_129]

Ok, was it a bug that I had to wait 5 days to actually make a post? The only reason I actually came back was to say, if so, then that is completely stupid. I have lost interest in the topic I was going to add to, and I was going to help someone who had asked a question but couldn't.

What benefit other than pissing people off does it do. I know it stops spammers, but there are better methods.

Anyway, what I was going to add was that you can still take DRM off files even after WMP updates to 11. I have the latest version and I still can do it. FairUse4WM is dead and has been for a while, instead I did a bit of research and found a different program called SoundTaxi. It does try to make you pay but you can get around it, also the UI is a little clumsy and slow, but it works.

There :-p

[blutach]

Welcome to Doom9. We've all worked within the 5 day rule, which is there to allow you to get to know the forum before you post (as well as reducing spammers). I hope you've taken that time to familiarise yourself with the forum rules. We hope you make a valuable contribution to our forum.

Regards

[Wombler]

Ok, was it a bug that I had to wait 5 days to actually make a post? The only reason I actually came back was to say, if so, then that is completely stupid.

The five day limit is only for your initial post.

I know that's possibly a bit frustrating when you want to reply quickly to a hot topic but you can of course post as often as you like thereafter.

Five days is not long to wait to gain access to such an extremely useful and well supported information resource.

Well worth waiting for IMO. :)


Wombler

[Sharktooth]

the 5 days limit is not only for spammers.
sadly, most new users in most forums are used to click the register button and then read nothing except the text on the button to go ahead with the registration.
in those 5 days users may have a look around and familiarize with the forum and the forum rules.
even then, there are users violating more than 1 rule in their first post... both luckily the 5 days limit, usually "does a good job"...

[Johno_129]

but surely the accounts are already made so its still clogging up the systems without clean ups anyway? :-D I'm just saying its a little frustrating having to jump though hoops before I can make a contribution. Did anyone try the program?

[Ajax_Undone]

Yes the problem is that it does unDRM the songs but it does it in a lossey way. The benifit of FU4WM was it took the encryption off the Music with out re encoding...
Once you re- encode you loose a portion of the original sound.

The way SoundTaxi and others work is by using the analog method with out the sound cable (ie Grabbing the sound as its processed through the sound card.) Though this works to a great extent the resulting sound has small levels of garble in it...

Now the options are ridiculous in it as well... All WM is encoded WMA @ 192kbps 44.100hz the fact that it allows you to choose 320kbps and 48.000hz is dumb cause that puts a lot of faith in the encoding algorithm which just makes up stuff as it goes...

All in all great program if you don't care for the lower quality of sound produced...

[Johno_129]

There is no loss... and it does not work like that. The quality of sound is exactly equal to the original. I have done 2 courses on audio technology and played them through high quality monitors and theres no difference so your computer speakers are going to tell the difference? The version of Sound Taxi also requires the DRM keys. It would NOT if it was a straight recorder. Also, it would not be able to record faster than playing speed. It rips 3 tracks at once, 4x faster than playing speed.

Research before you make an opinion based on incorrect preconceived ideas.

[Wilbert]

There is no loss... and it does not work like that.
So, how does it work then?

[Ajax_Undone]

Research before you make an opinion based on incorrect preconceived ideas. (Um Done and Done)

OK so you are saying that even though it takes the original 192 kbps wma file (wich has is own audio technology in place for audio enhancement) from which it is grabbed from the audio processor in open memory and re constituted through analog means into mp3 via lame mp3 audio encoder at the same bit rate I say nothing is missing? ??? Did I miss anything. Something is missing I am sure of it. Can you point it out? (I can't take a piece of RAW audio and encode it with two different codecs and expect that no loss has happened)...

[Guest]

If the audio is grabbed from memory, where are you claiming that it exists in analog form?

[Gokumon]

There is no loss...

It says on the tool's site that it converts from one lossy format to another. There is no way there couldn't be a loss in quality.

[Ajax_Undone]

If the audio is grabbed from memory, where are you claiming that it exists in analog form?

I said it took the processed audio from the audio card via analog means I never said that the sound its self was analog (its like using the analog cable to revert it back into the audio card via the audio in port to be recorded)

You your self can't say that these two methods differ by much. Except the sound never leaves the computer. Besides that the re-encoding whether at the same bit rate or not still causes loss...

[Guest]

If it "took it by analog means" then it must exist in analog somewhere (just as when you use a cable the audio exists as an analog signal on the cable itself). Where is the audio appearing as analog in this scenario? What is this "analog means" you are talking about?

I'm not disputing that there will be some quality loss.

My guess is that they install a pseudo sound card and capture the PCM data. It sure is decompressed, but PCM is not analog.

What is your theory about how the audio could be passing through the analog domain?

[Mug Funky]

I have done 2 courses on audio technology and played them through high quality monitors

2 courses and ABX was never mentioned? or bit-identity? i'd be asking for a refund.

sorry about that, but one of my pet peeves is people who flaunt their credentials rather than real evidence. it's just a bit pompous. not to say i've never been guilty of it myself... and i'm sure you could mop the floor with me in ProTools.

however, if the sound is good enough, the program is a good find. understand though that the "purist" method would involve stripping the compressed data itself and stuffing it into a new container (without DRM), rather than re-encoding into your choice of format.

[Ajax_Undone]

There is no loss... and it does not work like that. The quality of sound is exactly equal to the original. I have done 2 courses on audio technology and played them through high quality monitors and theres no difference. If you looked at it on a sound spectrometer you would have seen something the fact that you state this is nonsense.

If it "took it by analog means" then it must exist in analog somewhere (just as when you use a cable the audio exists as an analog signal on the cable itself). Where is the audio appearing as analog in this scenario? What is this "analog means" you are talking about?

I'm not disputing that there will be some quality loss.

My guess is that they install a pseudo sound card and capture the PCM data. It sure is decompressed, but PCM is not analog.

What is your theory about how the audio could be passing through the analog domain?

I C and I Agree. I made an error in what I said. :rolleyes:


Like I said in the first place its lossey at best and most people don't like the idea of lossey decryption of the original... Also if you like it and if it works for you then enjoy...:)

Nuff said

[Guest]

You're not supposed to surrender like that. :)

Let me take your side now.

It's possible that the real sound card could be used and some kind of on-board loopback is implemented.

I wasn't really challenging you, because I don't know the facts either, rather just asking for your clarification. I do see a lot of internet posts with phrases like "I assume that the analog loophole must be used.", but no definitive statements. Even Sound Taxi says only "the analog hole *can* be used", not that it is used.

My guess: to avoid legal issues they are happy to have people believe that, but I suspect that they actually copy the PCM data from memory.

[Ajax_Undone]

I assume that it must be as well...

But the point of my entire argument was that nobody likes lossey decryption.. LOL

And I didn't want to tango with someone who might know more then me...

PS I've never looked at the program my self in detail either.JSYK

[Johno_129]

I cant believe theres been a discussion on this, haha. Anyway, the programs output quality is perfectly adequate for most people. I don’t notice anything and I am pretty picky. The program converts to mp3 which is an inherently lossy medium anyway seeing as it’s compressed. However for mine, and most, peoples needs mp3 is this best for large collections of music.

My complaint was the only response to trying to be helpful was someone saying the program was s**t without actually using it, and then quessing how it would work. I was offended that I was assumed to be a moron. I am pretty sure the program does not use analog, I don’t care what it says on the website. If it used analog, then yes there would be a bad loss in quality. I have used programs like that before you ask…

And to Mug Funky, I wasn’t ‘showing off my credentials’ I was just saying I’m not some idiot that thought he would have a go at something. I have been a musician most of my life and currently work in music, and spend much of my time listening to music. That’s not bragging, that’s just saying I know what I am listening to.

There… my pet peeve is people being condescending for no reason :-p

This has been the worst received first post for me I have ever had on a forum

[Guest]

This has been the worst received first post for me I have ever had on a forum That's because with your first post you came in here telling how we should run our forum!

[Johno_129]

I was just saying its frustrating and something I have never seen on any other forums :-)

[Ajax_Undone]

And now you know why... Most people who are in the complaint field don't return because that's all they really bring to the table... At which I should have been put out to pasture long ago...:p I have a bad habit of falling on the wrong side of the argument...

[Johno_129]

Ah. Well I didnt mean to cause offence. Also in reading back my posts I realise that some of the things I said were inaccurate :-D

When I said there is no loss, I should have really said no major loss that I could really notice.

[weaker]

And that is a very huge difference. No loss (provable fact) or no loss you can notice (perfectly fine but only your opinion as perhaps someone else can notice it).

[Avenger007]

As an alternative to waiting 5 days, would it be practical to moderate the first few posts of newly registered users within the first couple weeks of registration?
Because spammers usually spam in their first few posts and newbies usually don't read the rules (esp. rule 6) either. So no one, other than mods, would see such posts.
Such a moderation of posts could be lifted after the first post or prolonged (if the user's intentions are still questionable) at the moderator's discretion.

Also, would temporarily banning (for 5 days) users who break rule 6 be effective in making them read the rules, guides, FAQ, search etc.? Because some of them post the same problem right after the thread is closed but worded differently.

A 5 day wait seems like an unwarranted punishment for people who genuinely want to contribute when they feel it is appropriate.

[Guest]

We recently started doing that. Now we have both protections. :)

[Avenger007]

Oh, didn't realize that, but what do you mean by both protections? The 5 day wait isn't really a protection, is it?
Edit: I guess you're referring to the temp ban, but I would consider that more as a warning than a protection.

[Doom9]

You said no other forum had that - however this is a unique forum.. To my knowledge, this forum is the best one when it comes to high quality in depth discussion of many video topics - and that focus needs certain additional protections. Doom9 old-timers may well remember previous forums on the subjects and how they all turned into repetitive newbie style questions being asked twenty times over. By setting the bar very high, we may turn away potential members, but in the end, many a member who initially complained later revised his opinion when truly realizing the benefits of this forum.
Many exclusive organization in real life also has high hurdles for getting in - compared to years of waiting and having to make considerable investment in time/money I think 5 days is a litte price to pay for all this place has to offer - and I'd rather throw in the towel than having this place becoming yet another forum where the old timers leave out of frustration of having the same thing brought up time and again (and having plenty of answers around that would be found with very little effort). My experience with digital video forums started at around the time CSS was first broken so I've been around the block a few times and in my experience, you need to be demanding if you want to keep the valuable long time contributors around and ensure that potential new valuable contributors will stick around. This place wouldn't exist if I weren't fed up with the same old (and long since answered) stuff coming up time and again - all it took was encouragement by like minded people and voila.

We didn't always have so many rules or a waiting period.. but as the forum grew, certain changes were necessary.. and the 5 day waiting period, despite all its drawback, still makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, look at all the topics and software that really have their home right here - I consider it my duty to ensure that this place remains a suitable home to those topics / softwares as well as keeping an environment that encourages that other topics/softwares find their home here.

Moderating new post has one major drawback.. it takes time. So far this week we had 125 new signups. If after the waiting period each poster only makes a single post, that's still 125 posts to moderate and we have 4 more days to go.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Moderating new post has one major drawback.. it takes time. So far this week we had 125 new signups. If after the waiting period each poster only makes a single post, that's still 125 posts to moderate and we have 4 more days to go.Indeed....

And even with the 5 day waiting period, it still amazes me how many first time posters break the forum rules :(

[blutach]

Indeed....

And even with the 5 day waiting period, it still amazes me how many first time posters break the forum rules :(Sad that. But many more make valuable contributions or have something new to add.

Regards

[R3Z]

I would imagine waiting 5 days wouldnt be a massive thing for anyone. In my case it helped me to challenge myself and try harder to solve my problem (which i did after 3 days).

[Avenger007]

Trying to relate the 5 day wait to the information/software available here doesn't seem logical because the forum is public.
Hence many people register because they want to take an active part in the community, in which case what is the justification for the waiting? A few noobs (bad apples) who break the rules don't represent the majority of new people registering. It's almost like new users are guilty until proven innocent.

And what does the 5 day wait protect against (apparently not clueless n00bs :p)? It seems like a theory at best (as opposed to proven fact) since spammers have all the time in the world to spam, and as for people who were turned away then we may never know, although I'm sure there are people who benefited from the waiting.

As an alternative way of seeing the point being made, would changing the waiting time to 10 days or to 1 day have the effect you think/hope it would?

I agree that moderating posts takes a lot of time (that's why I asked if it was practical), but it's a good idea for keeping the forums clean. :)
Btw, people use the Internet differently now compared to the old days, so even if something worked before it doesn't automatically mean it is still effective now.

[Doom9]

Trying to relate the 5 day wait to the information/software available here doesn't seem logical because the forum is public.It's your right to disagree but tell me this.. how many forums of this size have you run, how many times have you been at the helm of the leading forum for one particular topic? How much experience do you have in the careful balancing act of making sure that valuable contributors find an environment that encourages them to stay? Do you have the experience to back up your implicit claim that you know better?

We've gone from no waiting period to 3 days to 5 and we've seen the effect it has. Claiming otherwise if you haven't even been around then is just disingenuous. Seeing as how 3 days wasn't enough, I know what to expect from a shorter waiting period. If 5 days is the optimum, I think nobody can really know unless you perform empirical experiments.

It's almost like new users are guilty until proven innocent.I'd put it another way: it is up to you to prove that you are a valuable contributor. There's nothing wrong with the new guy having to prove that he's not just here to get something for free and not bringing anything to the table. I have no doubts that setting the bar high is what has allowed this forum to remain the leading forum in this particular area. Perhaps I'm wrong but I can only base this on past experience and the utter lack of any complaints from the truly valuable contributors over the years.. never did I have member whom I consider to be extremely valuable to this board tell me that this approach is useless. perhaps it still is, but I prefer to have that opinion from the people who I think make this an even better place. There's another indicator that I'd consider - if we have another place cutting the core competency of this place and the guys who really make the effort (starting a forum is a big task especially if you want to attract new people who stay more than just a few days.. you need people who answer every question so they need to be online all the time..) starting out in another place because of the high bars we have.

People wait months or years to get their car of choice, get the apartment/house they want, get their kids into the school they want... it's always a question of whether you're willing to put up with the requirements. I think what you can get here past the 5 days is well worth the 5 days of waiting. If you don't.. then why are you still here?

The mod squad is doing a great job in running the forum, but having to moderate new posts would put a much higher burden on them so I'm not convinced that's even feasible but I guess I can bring it up. Still I think that setting the netiquette in stone is a good thing to do.. I don't care if nobody reads the rules.. they are there and if you don't respect them, you get hit over the head, period. I don't care the least bit that you've not been around when we still knew what netiquette means.. I'm no fan of dwelling on the past but that's one thing that was a valuable lesson for me and has served me well from the days where our web browser was called mosaic to today - and it cannot hurt anyone to learn this lesson as well. And try going to a Linux place and not bothering to RTMF..

Oh, and I almost forgot about an important aspect of the waiting period: the quick fix people.. that's people who come here because they heard Doom9 was great, and who just bring questions never intending to contribute anything ever - if they don't have to stomach to wait, they'll find another board. And that's good.. I don't care about numbers, I care about quality. Of course, at the beginning you'll have more questions than answer, but if you have no intention of ever giving anything back for what you've received, I really don't want you in my house. I'm not some blue eyed idealist who believes in the best of people - it's solely a practical matter... a community thrives if people are giving back. If you're not willing to give up some of your valuable time to lend a helping hand to some random stranger, why should you be worthy to receive the same from somebody else?

We have this discussion every couple months or so.. the arguments are always the same.. and interestingly so are the people (those complaining are never those 4 digit post number members whose knowledge puts my own to shame. Buttom line.. it works very well so why change it? If we''d be losing all the good people, then this forum should die out, right? But it isn't so somehow, despite having to wait, many valuable contributors have signed up over the years. Whether there'd be more, and if those would make up for the added number of quick fix people is anyone's guess - I'm not willing to find out the hard and facing the possibility of having to repair hard to undo damage such an experiment could have (the really old farts all walked from other places because we didn't want to put up with the "everybody come in and get some" approach other places have.. ). If you ever have your own place and are willing to run such an experiment, let me know the results.

[Avenger007]

You're right (of course), I was just giving an opinion (i.e. taking a side to present a point).

[Johno_129]

I suppose I get the way you are thinking. You dont need to defend your decisions quite so aggresively doom9 it wasnt a criticism (and that isnt either! :-D). I do understand that the 5 day wait is better than moderating every new post because that would take so long its not logical. I suppose its main benefit is that it encourages people to search the forum for an answer before asking, because looking over a forum is faster than waiting 5 days :-)