Streaming???

[The Master]

I've asked about streaming before on this forum.. 3 times I believe now in 3 years or so..

I ran into this when I was here a couple years ago.. and I see this guy still has a product available for download on this site.. though his free legal streaming movie site is down..

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=86521

Has there been improvement in streaming?

How can we be in the middle of the youtube generation but no one has anything to recommend?

Is there another forum out there that I can get some streaming advice preferably for the good formats like xvid/divx/h264/x264?

What I have learned about streaming thanks to this guys post.. was that you needed a server (software) for streaming before.. and his player allows non-server stuff.. has there been any other advances?

[smok3]

i would check the flash, minimum for streaming would be:

- web server + php (flv streaming)

a lil more would be

- specific web server with specific plugin (say mp4, flv)

flash 10 should bring p2p option, but i think that will be tied to adobe streaming server.

example, home made avc streaming;
http://somestuff.org/flashAVC/flvplayer.php?moviename=movies/bbb-AVC-stream-x640y352.flv

[The Master]

Is there a how-to or something.. cause your instructions seem confusing to me..

It would be safe to say my web server has php + apache.. but much more then that I don't know.. they seem to have a wiki for Flash Media Player so I'd say that's supported.

I take it what your saying is today everyone uses adobe's flash to stream videos.. the examples you have are certainly pretty cool/neat..

[Dark Shikari]

If by streaming you just mean Youtube-style progressive download, that's easy enough in Flash, which lets you use H.264 and AAC for video and audio. Example video (http://mirror05.x264.nl/Dark/Flash/extra.html).

[The Master]

Yah, well I guess I'm confused about that parts..

Let's say you have.. I dunno h264 files as .ts files or .avi

What is the progressive coding links.. is there a way to load say 10-12 of them together etc.. are there automated software packages available for say joomla that just automate the work?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

AVI is not streamable. Even progressive download won't work, because the index-block is at the very end of the AVI file.

For FlashPlayer the H.264 stream has to be in an MP4 container. I hear FLV works too...

[The Master]

Okay .avi is not streamable.. got it.. so you need to your place your movies into .mp4 files.. or .flv files? then how do you load up and play them on the web.. is there a software that takes care of this.. or this is all a lot of html coding for each file.. (maybe not that much coding but obviously some)

[Dark Shikari]

Okay .avi is not streamable.. got it.. so you need to your place your movies into .mp4 files.. or .flv files? then how do you load up and play them on the web.. is there a software that takes care of this.. or this is all a lot of html coding for each file.. (maybe not that much coding but obviously some)JW player, Flowplayer, etc.

Click on my example link above; the HTML is trivial, it takes at most a minute or two.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Yup, JW FLV Player (http://www.jeroenwijering.com/?item=JW_FLV_Player) is very easy to use. Upload the files provided by JW Player and your MP4/FLV file to the same folder and adjust the HTML code. That's it!

Another sample here:
http://mplayer.somestuff.org/misc/flv_test/

[smok3]

if you want http streaming, that is doable with apache+php only, you will need to:
- make a proper flv file with injected metadata (AVC is doable with remuxing with ffmpeg for example)
- use older version of the jw player (3.16x) if you want to use AVC in flv (i hear adobe doesn't like that for some reason thought)
(that is how the example i posted works)

(if you want progressive download only, then things are way simpler, almost anything goes, mp4, flv..)

p.s. my blog is not up to date.

[The Master]

What's your basic easy ripper for .flv as I had not heard of this file type until this thread?

[smok3]

The Master: you will have to do a LOT of reading, then when you just think you are in position for another annoying question, do some more reading (start with: differenciating ripper from encoder from container, etc)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

You may give Avidemux a try:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=126164

It can create FLV1 video in FLV container as well as H.264 in MP4 container. But H.264 in FLV is not supported yet, so you'll need to remux with ffmpeg to get that.

[The Master]

Hmm.. I've been learning/experimenting/doing.. no I probably DON'T no the difference between a encoder and a container and a CODEC

But I know what I like.. and in my file/quality experiments using some of the base codecs with avidemux.. I learned of all of e’m I like X264 the best.. (though I didn’t try all of them) I kind of wonder if standard old MPEG2 might be a bit better then MPEG4/X264 but I assume not really..

I've experimented with .flv and got that working pretty easily on my site.. but I don't like the .flv format.. I like x264 (after running several examples rips with the ripper suggested by Mulder..) thanks! (very cool.. glad to see the technology has evolved to this)

The problem I now face.. is I can't get my x264/mp4 rip.. to play with quicktime.. (online or offline) what our your choices (if any) for using a x264 codec rip through a youtube style player (I think I encoded mp3 for audio.. but audio doesn't really matter I might have even gone mono in the options) ??

Or is there equivalent quality/size codec to X264 that’s flv friendly?

Also if you have plain .AVI files (made by today’s cameras like canon) is there a embedded player that can be used to play these natively (I'm not talking about streaming.. I'm talking the download/play that is prevalent in the youtube generation.. I think I like this better then the headaches of streaming and so far FLV type) ??

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Hmm.. I've been learning/experimenting/doing.. no I probably DON'T no the difference between a encoder and a container and a CODEC

Encoder:
Software that converts "uncompressed" into "compressed" video. For example if you want to create H.264 video, you'll need a H.264 Encoder, such as "x264".

Codec:
This is a synthetic word and means "(En)Coder/Decoder". It's a software that can do both: Compress and Decompress video to/from a specific format.

Container:
A file that encapsulates the "raw" video (and audio) streams. To play a video in a player it usually has to be inside a container, such as AVI, MKV, MP4 or OGM.


Note: Many people mix up "Codec" and "Format", but they are not the same! For example "DivX" is a Codec, but the Format it uses is "MEPG-4 ASP".
"DivX" is not a Format, it's just a piece of software. There are many more Encoders/Decoders that can encode/decode that Format.

[smok3]

the example i posted is x264 + AAC in flv container.

[The Master]

Ahh.. so change the container.. alright..

Hmm.. the recommended program avidemux gives me a couple errors when I try MPEG-4 AVC (x264) w/ AAC and format FLV says (only FLV1 and VP6 video are supported)

So I take it I need a different ripper.. is there a different easy one.. or have to do some command line stuff?

Looks like this is the extra step that has to be done? "remux with ffmpeg"

I found this nice tutorial.. seems to have removed the "remux with ffmpeg" step.. sort of.. but maybe it's using the container mp4 over flv
http://www.xanga.com/lepton/642912497/item.html

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Avidemux doesn't support output of H.264 video to FLV container. But you can use H.264 video plus AAC audio and save it to an MP4 container.

If you only want "progressive download" with Flashplayer, this should be sufficient. You only need to re-mux the video to FLV, if you want real "random access" streaming.

You can use "ffmpeg" to remux the video from MP4 to FLV container. This is lossless, it just copies the video stream from one container to another one...

[The Master]

Progressive download is what I want.. I don't think streaming is worth it at the moment.. (the extra steps seem well.. too hard at the moment if it were simpler.. streaming be fine)

So what is the tool to re-mux that seems to be the only step I'm missing to finish my tests..

and then put my small project online.. someone should really write a tutorial for this.. the one I found is the only one I can find at all.. it's outdated and relies on mp4/quicktime solution.. which with my testing my quicktime video was playing (online) but I couldn't see it/control it.. (dunno outdated quicktime??)

One step that did help me with my videos though was deinterlacing (I guess my videos are interlaced) and using that and AAC brought my test 2 minute video down from 56 mb which was acceptable to 35 mb (apparently doing tests I've found deinterlacing knocked off almost 20 mb.. which is very nice ;) )

Here's the step I have thus far.. to get to FLV "progressive download" X264 w/ AAC

1. Use avidemux to create a mp4? container w/ MPEG4-X264 and AAC

2. Use ???????? tool to remux? create a FLV (playable in tools such as JW FLV Player)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

As said before: If you are happy with "progressive download" then you can use H.264+AAC in MP4 container.
Avidemux, as one tool out of many, can create that for you. No additional steps needed.

FLV would be needed for "real" streaming only. And you'd also needed to set up a PHP script on your sever...

[The Master]

Well now I'm confused.. (somewhat)

I used the MP4box tool on my step 1. process (and again I couldn't get it to play in quicktime online at all) but simply renaming it to FLV is allowing it to play in FLV Player and the other software I was testing with..

Okay.. so in my case the only problem with not being able to use these default videos straight out of the box was software I was using for the web which needed it called FLV and not MP4 file type.. and the STEP #2 is to use MP4Box cause if you don't.. your video will have to download completely.. instead of being a "progressive download"

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/stevencarpenter/entry/flash_h264_moving

Okay, I think that clears most everything up.. now that I have it solved.. I feel tempted to play with the idea of trying the stream.. so I will re-read the above and if I can't figure it out.. I'll post again..

[The Master]

Okay, well sorry if I have dozens of posts about problems playing online.. and thanks for your help!

But I'd like to try creating a streaming video so.. I'm confused as to the steps and what to do to make it streaming..

1. If I have my video prepared what features or settings am I using in ffmepg to remux it.. ?

In addition I'm just double checking.. can it be streamable in FLV Player or do you have to use specially encoded php web pages to allow the streaming?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Well now I'm confused.. (somewhat)

I used the MP4box tool on my step 1. process (and again I couldn't get it to play in quicktime online at all) but simply renaming it to FLV is allowing it to play in FLV Player and the other software I was testing with..Just to let you know...

MP4box is not too good at generating QuickTime player compatible .MP4 muxes. Crypto's MP4muxer is more reliable.

Given that FLV player fully supports playback of streams muxed within the .MP4 container. Why do you feel obligated to use the .FLV container?

[The Master]

Well, I've already stated twice.. that the problem was the online playback software.. I see now understanding that the files created with avidemux where WEB ready the second they were done.. or more explicitly "progressive download"

This was the software I was using for joomla
http://extensions.joomla.org/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,812/Itemid,35/

Now when using it.. if you use it's {mp4} slash it starts or calls up the quicktime activex control I believe.. when using {flv} it uses FLV Player I think.. regardless unless the extension name of the mp4 container file is changed to the extension of .FLV it won't play correctly.. at least that I saw.. I think it may be possible to play it without a extension type maybe...

I have achieved "progressive download" ability through the web all my problems with this are done..

I'd just like to actually try the streaming method outlined and shown by smok3

I see the app you recommended has some streaming options in it.. but I didn't understand if that would allow me to do online streaming so I'm just leaving it without a clear answer.. but thanks for the tool since it doesn't involve the command line I’ll go ahead and use it for any "progressive downloads" I might do.. thanks!

[Dark Shikari]

Now when using it.. if you use it's {mp4} slash it starts or calls up the quicktime activex control I believe.. Again, you don't embed the mp4 file, you embed an swf file pointing to the mp4 file. Read the documentation on JW player.

[smok3]

a. so what you have now is mp4 (AVC+AAC)?
b. and you understand what jw player is?

if so, then, a remux bat would look like:

@Echo off

echo.
echo ...............remux mp4 to flv...............

t:\path\ffmpeg.exe -i %1 -vcodec copy -acodec copy %1.flv

echo.
echo ...............injecting metadata...............

t:\path\flvmdi.exe %1.flv /k

usage this.bat some.mp4

meaning you need ffmpeg and flvmdi (both command line tools, yes you will have to get dirty with cmd).

manualy you would do the same with:
1st
ffmpeg -i file.mp4 vcodec copy -acodec copy file.flv
2nd
flvmdi file.flv /k

from there play with the php & player to get the results, in my php script you would rename the file to say
file_stream_x512y384.flv
to get streaming php to kick in and such.

p.s. you also need the older version of jwplayer (the 3.16x series), i could not make it work with never versions (but that could be my fault).
p.s.2. if you want to play with my script, use the recommended version as noted in the blog.

about: the php streaming works such as that the special php script returns the data to the player, so the clip is only indirectly called.

[The Master]

Works, good.. thanks for your instructions on this..

I have one question though.. the video seems rendered unplayable on the computer itself.. is there a codec pack or a fix for this.. or when you make it online streamable.. that's all you can do?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Playback performance depends on the individual CPU. FlashPlayer uses it's own H.264 decoder, nothing like a "Codec" is needed.

[The Master]

Playback performance depends on the individual CPU. FlashPlayer uses it's own H.264 decoder, nothing like a "Codec" is needed.

That's not at all what I was talking about.. now on the CLIENT computer the video is unplayable with this error in Mplayer Classic (the video works fine web STREAMING)

"MPC could not render some of the pins in the graph, you may not have the needed codecs or filters installed on the system."

I'm guessin if someone knows it's.. smok3

Actually I have another question for smok3 have you tested this on significantly long movies.. I encoded to a 110 minute movie and it didn't seem to skip/stream well at all.. is this meant for small movies say under 10-20 minutes? (I noticed on this 1.3 Gb file with the stream steps going up to 1.31 Gb as well)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

That's not at all what I was talking about.. now on the CLIENT computer the video is unplayable with this error in Mplayer Classic (the video works fine web STREAMING)

"MPC could not render some of the pins in the graph, you may not have the needed codecs or filters installed on the system."


If MPC doesn't play the video, this means that your are missing the required Splitter and/or Decoder. Install "Haali Media Splitter" + "ffdshow" and it will play ;)

Or use MPlayer (http://mulder.dummwiedeutsch.de/home/?page=projects#mplayer) or VLC Player (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/) ...

[hoboX10]

AVI is not streamable. Even progressive download won't work, because the index-block is at the very end of the AVI file.

For FlashPlayer the H.264 stream has to be in an MP4 container. I hear FLV works too...

I thought DivX/XviD streaming was possible with a .avi file. I know I've seen it before.

[Dark Shikari]

I thought DivX/XviD streaming was possible with a .avi file. I know I've seen it before.Not in Flash, only in the "DivX" player, which requires an external plugin to be installed (much like Flash).

[hoboX10]

Not in Flash, only in the "DivX" player, which requires an external plugin to be installed (much like Flash).

Oh yeah, I thought you guys were talking about streaming in general. My bad.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

How can "streaming" be possible with AVI at all? :confused:

Even progressive download can't work properly, because the index block is at the very end of the AVI file...

(I know you can play "incomplete" AVI's like MPlayer does, but seeking doesn't work good due to the lack of frame-type information)

[smok3]

Actually I have another question for smok3 have you tested this on significantly long movies.. I encoded to a 110 minute movie and it didn't seem to skip/stream well at all.. is this meant for small movies say under 10-20 minutes? (I noticed on this 1.3 Gb file with the stream steps going up to 1.31 Gb as well)
actually i did not test at all for longer than 20 minutes (the php streaming), what i used on longer movies is lighttpd + flv streaming plugin.

[The Master]

Well, then I can tell you it doesn't work well.. (it did skip/fast forward sometimes but the bar totally lost track of where it was kind of)

I assume this plug-in requires a streaming server.. does that mean quicktime streaming server could be used even though flash strongly wants people using their server?

(my files are not quicktime compliant and what would fix that of being x264 and aac I'm not sure) but it's my understanding that quicktime server does use the format FTSP://somewhereontheweb.com

[smok3]

darwin won't work,
what plugin ? no, that is the streamer.
p.s. I have just checked, older files (which are vp6 video in flv) are working fine, durations more than 22 minutes. But the format should not make any difference with the same container.

what version of the jw player are you using? example link?

[The Master]

I'm using I believe it's your software flvplayer14c..

I have 9,0,124,0 of flash.. the JLW in your player shows 3.16 all of my files are MP4 containers.. though for other software I use to play I change there extension name to .flv

What's VP6 video the only way I know that name was avidemux bitching about it how it didn't support it..

(actually I see per your website you say streaming is broken for all v14's? as streamable is that my problem.. I need to use 12 or flvplayer14stream?)

[smok3]

you are using the correct version, the limitation with long files you found is probably php problem of some sort, did you install a local web server or are you only testing on remote servers?

if not, do that and when you got it to work compare local and remote php.ini and server settings if you can.

[The Master]

I'm using it on a remote.. I don't want to setup a local server just to fix it.. but I am supposed to set one up for another purpose so I could try then..

If you want to see the problem..

http://kilbournefamily.com/flvplayer

If you see the 2 files named stream.. damaged2 is the one that is 110 minutes long and was a 1.30 Gb file that became 1.31 after you prep instructions.. the smaller file seems to work fine..

Any of the other files are masters at 640x480 (and no they haven't been renamed to display there resolutions..) as there currently being uploaded.. they have the mp4box -isma on them as well so they begin "progressive download" and have no meta data because damaged2 experiment had issues..

[smok3]

there is a bin distro - one-click web server with php to be found on teh blog as well (does not install anything other than letter S), tested only on xp (edit, here http://blog.somestuff.org/index.php?entry=entry070928-171124).

p.s. i'll encode something long overnight, will report back tomorrow.
p.s.2. check your remote php.ini, could be a memory limit (if it is set to 8MB)

[The Master]

Memory limit is at 90 Mb

[smok3]

'something long' blue-screened over night, maybe tomorrow...

[The Master]

Ouch.. yah I never have blue screens except sometimes exiting a certain game.. ;)

[The Master]

Well, want to thank you guys for all your help.. I got my project done took 4-5 long years but woot it's reached a version of completion..

And I honestly think how awesome the x264 codec is it was worth the wait.. (huge improvement over divx/xvid as I see it) well mpeg4 was supposed to be for internet video and it does a good job ehh..

If you have some new info smok3 about making streaming work with big files 2 hours/x264 without a server let me know.. else.. I'll just shy away from quicktime server for now.. and of course re-investigate streaming in a year or two see if there are improvements on making it EASY

(the bonus of course to streaming is fast forwarding really)

I could not figure out to get that mp4muxer tool to work.. so I'm just using mp4box and it works good with the -isma flag

[smok3]

The Master, nope, sorry, i just can't find any more time for experiments..., life is such.

[The Master]

Well, thanks again.. if you get the fix feel free to update the thread though ;)