DGindex reporting FILM as 29.97

[Poof]

Dgindex is reporting my NTSC FILM (its telling me its FILM which is correct) as being 29.97. This produced alot of problems in autoMKV when i had the frame and fields set to AUTO (im assuming it got its info from dgindex which loads upon importing a file) and it telecined my movie. Correct me if im wrong, but if it reports something as being FILM, then its framerate should always be 23.97.

More info:
Stream Type: MPEG2 Program
Profile: main@main
Frame Size: 720x480
Display Size: 720x480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 [3]
Frame Rate: 29.970030 fps
Video Type: Film
Frame Type: Progressive
Coding Type: B
Colorimetry: SMPTE 170M
Frame Structure: Frame

[Guest]

It's correct. The stream's display rate is 29.97 fps, achieved by using 3:2 soft pulldown on "film" content. It has a frame rate of 23.976 only if you use Forced Film to strip the pulldown.

The FILM indication just tells you that there is 3:2 soft pulldown present. You still have to decide what to do with the flags. It's not automatic.

You can set the field operation in your INI file if you want it to always start up in Forced Film mode. But then it will be wrong if you load non-film content.

[buzzqw]

automkv is alble to detect FILM % reported by DGIndex and the autodeint fuction will FILM/DECIMATE (TFM+Tdecimate) the file , so you get a 23.976 output

BHH

[Poof]

It's correct. The stream's display rate is 29.97 fps, achieved by using 3:2 soft pulldown on "film" content. It has a frame rate of 23.976 only if you use Forced Film to strip the pulldown.


But you see, the problem with that is that the movie is not 30fps, even when i pop it into my dvd player and frame forward, there is no interlacing or pulldowns. I shouldnt have to strip anything because there is nothing to be stripped. DGindex is reporting a false framerate. Virtualdubmod however read the framerate correctly and as a result didnt attempt to apply any pulldowns (lagarith decompression).

edit:actually, on that note, i had to do the lagarith decompression to make it so that dgindex would read the framerate correctly, because even when i had it set to progressive (in automkv), it still was applying a pulldown.

You can set the field operation in your INI file if you want it to always start up in Forced Film mode. But then it will be wrong if you load non-film content.

So your saying that if i want to make FILM get read correctly in dgindex, i have to make it so all non-film content gets read incorrectly? So i have to break one function to make the other work? Thats....interesting.

automkv is alble to detect FILM % reported by DGIndex and the autodeint fuction will FILM/DECIMATE (TFM+Tdecimate) the file , so you get a 23.976 output

are you referring to the FILM option in the autodeint frame type box? I tried that and it screwed all the frames up, producing some strange frame order that was neither 24 or 30fps. The only workable solution to making a 24fps film stay a 24fps film was to decompress it to lossless and set it to progressive = no pulldowns, no decimation.

If i rip a 24fps movie, and encode to x264, then it should yield a 24fps movie, correct?

[Guest]

But you see, the problem with that is that the movie is not 30fps, even when i pop it into my dvd player and frame forward, there is no interlacing or pulldowns. The MPEG stream on the DVD is set as 29.97 and there is 3:2 soft pulldown. If you have a progressive player, it can ignore the flags and output non-pulled down video.

I shouldnt have to strip anything because there is nothing to be stripped. You're just wrong. Post a VOB fragment and I will prove it.

DGindex is reporting a false framerate. No it is not.

Virtualdubmod however read the framerate correctly and as a result didnt attempt to apply any pulldowns (lagarith decompression). VirtualDubMod does not honor pulldown.

So your saying that if i want to make FILM get read correctly in dgindex, i have to make it so all non-film content gets read incorrectly? So i have to break one function to make the other work? Thats....interesting. No, I'm saying that DGIndex can optionally honor or ignore soft pulldown. You have to specify what you want.

The only workable solution to making a 24fps film stay a 24fps film was to decompress it to lossless and set it to progressive = no pulldowns, no decimation. Use Force Film in DGIndex.

If i rip a 24fps movie, and encode to x264, then it should yield a 24fps movie, correct? You don't have a 24 fps movie. You have a 29.97 fps movie with 3:2 soft pulldown.

If you want to argue it further, post a VOB fragment.

[Poof]

I dont know how to break a VOB up without making it not a vob. I can give you a lagarith sample but then it would be correct.

Of course you PROs always think information like that is just laying around, oh wait, let me google "breaking up VOB", oh i see, look at the hundreds of pages that have nothing to do with what should be a simple task and not a damn bit of information anywhere on how to do such a thing. Must be OUR fault for not already knowing upon conception.

Neither of my players (the one hooked to my tv and the in my computer) are progressive or show any signs of interlacing/pulldowns when i frame through them. What the point of creating a 24fps dvd if the player is just going to do a pulldown and make it 30fps in the end? Absolutely none.

But i went ahead and loaded my x264 -> DVD VOB's into dgindex (keeping the honor pulldown option checked), and lo and behold, it reads my DVD mpeg2 VOB's as 24fps, and not a bit of interlaced pulldowns to boot.

Well, tell me how to break up the VOB's and ill post them for you to see for yourself. My movie is 24fps, and if it were 30fps it would look like crap, which would be the case if there were any "soft pulldowns" encoded into or along with the video.

[manono]

I'd be very careful if I were you, because just about everything you've said in your posts to this thread has been ignorant nonsense. There's nothing wrong with being ignorant if you show a willingness to learn. You, on the other hand, just sound foolish.

To get a sample for upload, load a VOB into DGIndex, use the [ and ] buttons to mark off a very small section, go File->Save Project and Demux Video, and upload the resulting M2V to a 3rd part upload site, one such as MediaFire:

http://www.mediafire.com/

Then post the link.

[Guest]

I dont know how to break a VOB up without making it not a vob. Use my utility DGSplit to split off the first 20MBytes of the VOB.

What the point of creating a 24fps dvd if the player is just going to do a pulldown and make it 30fps in the end? Absolutely none. NTSC DVD was originally defined to play on NTSC analog displays at 29.97 fps. That is achieved for film content by means of soft 3:2 pulldown as I have said.

But i went ahead and loaded my x264 -> DVD VOB's That is incoherent. There is no such thing as an "x264 DVD VOB". If you mean you made a VOB from an x264 encode, then you must have done it in a non-DVD-compliant way. How did you make it?

into dgindex (keeping the honor pulldown option checked), and lo and behold, it reads my DVD mpeg2 VOB's as 24fps, and not a bit of interlaced pulldowns to boot. Then it is not a DVD VOB compliant MPEG2 stream. How did you make it or where did you get it? It can't say "Film" if there is no pulldown. Please post a VOB fragment to remove all doubt. I prefer the VOB rather than the M2V as manono suggested because I can see if there are DVD things in there like NAV packs.

Well, tell me how to break up the VOB's and ill post them for you to see for yourself. My movie is 24fps, and if it were 30fps it would look like crap, which would be the case if there were any "soft pulldowns" encoded into or along with the video. See above.

[Poof]

Here you go, one is a sample from the original DVD rip, another is a sample from a dvd that was made from the x264 encode (DVD->x264->DVD) using DVD flick, which uses ffmpeg to encode (normally i use CCE but it doesnt accept most formats). In case your not familiar, DVD flick was designed as a simple and flexible DVD creation process, and for every POS encode ive ever thrown at it, it hasnt failed yet in producing a playable dvd.

[removed link - shows porn]

[Guest]

It took me 5 seconds with DGIndex to see that the original has soft pulldown and is 29.97 as I have been saying. The DVD Flick encoded one is 23.976 without pulldown. So your DVD->x264->DVD process has stripped the flags. Did you do it all with DVD Flick? If so, check the settings. If you made the h264 intermediate outside DVD Flick, how did you do it and what were your settings? One of the two has dropped the pulldown.

Furthermore, contrary to your assertion above, if you load the original in DGIndex and set Forced Film followed by a preview, you will see 23.976. Why did you misreport that?

I'll take an educated guess and suppose that you opened the original DVD in VirtualDubMod, and then made a lossless Lagarith file that you opened in x264 with a script using DirectShowSource() -- or something like that. If VirtualDubMod is in the chain, it will strip pulldown because it simply ignores it. That is likely why you got a 24 fps movie in your x264 encode. By contrast, both VirtualDub MPEG2 and DGIndex have an option that allows you to enable or disable pulldown. If you simply set Force Film in DGIndex, you will get the same result as going through VirtualDubMod and the intermediate Lagarith encode.

You may thank me now.

[Poof]

That still doesnt explain why when i play my movie straight from its original DVD (on both the computer and TV) i see no telecined ghosting and interlacing, but when i encode it directly to x264 under the auto deint function (in automkv), it shows up. Your saying the pulldown flag which causes the interlacing to occur is on the source dvd, yet it only shows up after dgindex tells automkv to do a pulldown.

well, i really dont know what to say about that. It would be rather psychotic if the DVD manufacturers intentionally put such a thing in their movies yet created a way for it not to be used upon playback. like i said, if they intended their movies to be shown at 30fps they wouldnt bother with flags (and the resulting dependencies on a random assortment of DVD players), they'd just do a hard pulldown and leave it at that. yeah, it would be telecined film, but it wouldnt be 24fps.

[manono]

Instead of just talking out of your a**, why not do some research and actually try and learn something?

http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3:2_pulldown#3:2_pulldown
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

[Guest]

That still doesnt explain why when i play my movie straight from its original DVD (on both the computer and TV) i see no telecined ghosting and interlacing, but when i encode it directly to x264 under the auto deint function (in automkv), it shows up. If your TV is an interlaced display, you won't see combing. That was the dominant technolgy when DVD was designed. If your TV is progressive then it is deinterlacing (or IVTC'ing) the video. On the PC, your player is deinterlacing (or IVTC'ing) the video.

Your saying the pulldown flag which causes the interlacing to occur is on the source dvd, yet it only shows up after dgindex tells automkv to do a pulldown. You haven't told us about your process for the MKV creation, so it's hard to comment. For example, suppose you have a blend deinterlacer in the chain. Then you will have ghosting. Suppose your player for the MKV does not have deinterlacing enabled. Then you will see combing. It is really silly of you to continue denying that the original DVD is coded at 29.97 fps with soft 3:2 pulldown.

well, i really dont know what to say about that. Then perhaps you should consider following manono's advice: educate yourself about the technology.

It would be rather psychotic if the DVD manufacturers intentionally put such a thing in their movies yet created a way for it not to be used upon playback. Makes perfect sense to me, because then it is playable on all display devices, both interlaced and progressive. And don't forget, as I have said several times, NTSC DVD was originally designed to be viewed on 29.97 fps interlaced displays (the only TV technology at the time of definition). The fact that modern displays can IVTC and show progressive pictures is only a serendipitous result. The reason DVDs were encoded at 24 fps and pulled down during display (rather than hard telecined) was to allow more bits of the encoded stream to be assigned to real data, rather than duplicate fields, thereby increasing the video quality.

for like i said, if they intended their movies to be shown at 30fps they wouldnt bother with flags (and the resulting dependencies on a random assortment of DVD players), they'd just do a hard pulldown and leave it at that. See above; using soft pulldown improves video quality. DVD players are not random; they have to adhere to a well defined specification, and that specification defines soft pulldown per the MPEG2 standard.

yeah, it would be telecined film, but it wouldnt be 24fps. It would also be a bad way to encode a DVD.

BTW, I am a professional digital video engineer with decades of experience. You should be a little less dismissive given your fragile basis of understanding. Nevertheless, since you want to continue doubting the veracity of my word, here is a quote from one of the links manono posted:

"On each DVD encoded from a film source, a flag is inserted within the MPEG-2 data stream that instructs the player to repeat certain fields to reconstruct the 29.97 frame per second interlaced video. The player obliges by performing the 3:2 pulldown in real-time, continually creating interlaced frame sequences"

Will you believe me now?

I hope that helps to clarify matters for you. :helpful:

[Inventive Software]

On a separate matter, would DGDecode followed by Telecine().Decimate() in AviSynth suffice to re-create the intended stream? It's my first R1 DVD, be gentle. :)

[Guest]

On a separate matter, would DGDecode followed by Telecine().Decimate() in AviSynth suffice to re-create the intended stream? It's my first R1 DVD, be gentle. :) First, you haven't defined "the intended stream". I'll assume you mean to return to film rate.

If there are soft pulldown flags with the 3:2 cadence, then you should use Force Film and not perform IVTC with Telecide.Decimate. If there is hard telecine, then you need to use IVTC with Telecide.Decimate. The reason is that using Force Film does not require any calculation/heuristics; it just ignores the flags, which does a perfect IVTC if the flagging is correct. Telecide.Decimate has no access to the flags (they were lost when the MPEG2 stream was decoded) and so must perform heuristic calculations to try to figure things out. It's slow and not perfect.

[Inventive Software]

DGIndex reported the movie as 94% film IIRC, so I enabled Force Film and I'm gonna try it later to prove myself wrong.

[Guest]

In such cases, it's usually the intro and/or credits that are not film. You can try Force Film and see if it is OK on the main movie.

[Inventive Software]

It did seem that way when I checked it last night. Anyway, I'll give it a go. Thanks for helping an NTSC newbie! :)

[Poof]

It would also be a bad way to encode a DVD.

Well, i took my 24fps x264 rip, encoded it to mpeg2 (the second sample i gave you is of that very encode), and burned it to disk. Thats right, a 24fps film with no pulldown flags on a standard dvd player on a standard interlaced NTSC TV. OMG whats gonna happen, oh wait, it played perfectly, no interlacing, combing, or crappy DV looking 30fps framerate. I guess i just defied THE LAWS OF NTSC!!!

If your TV is an interlaced display, you won't see combing.

Well, for one thing i am an editor, so i see everything, secondly i burned a standard 30i DV-cam movie and watched it on the same setup, combing all around. I never used to see it on TV's before, but now it just stands out on any source.

BTW, I am a professional digital video engineer with decades of experience.


Well, you have in your possession a sample of the very movie that just proved decades of experience doesnt make you right by default. ouch.

Well, i do appreciate the feedback, but it seems the problem lies in the existence of flags on film content, so perhaps you should setup dgindex to FORCEFILM on film only and this would solve the problem.

edit: for the record:

You haven't told us about your process for the MKV creation, so it's hard to comment.

post#1 This produced alot of problems in autoMKV
post#4 because even when i had it set to progressive (in automkv)

When people ask me to repeat, i always say it exactly the same as the first, and suddenly it is clearer to them.....

[Guest]

Well, i took my 24fps x264 rip, encoded it to mpeg2 (the second sample i gave you is of that very encode), and burned it to disk. Exactly how did you burn it to disk? Would you be willing to post the start of the first VOB from that disk? I theorize that you converted it back to 29.97 when you "burned" it.

Thats right, a 24fps film with no pulldown flags on a standard dvd player on a standard interlaced NTSC TV. OMG whats gonna happen, oh wait, it played perfectly, no interlacing, combing, or crappy DV looking 30fps framerate. I guess i just defied THE LAWS OF NTSC!!! Well, let's see if that's really right.

Well, you have in your possession a sample of the very movie that just proved decades of experience doesnt make you right by default. ouch. No I don't. I have what you claimed you input into the "burning" process. I don't have a piece of the VOB ripped from your final DVD.

[Poof]

lol, I gave you a fragment from the final encode. In DVDflick it encodes and automates the authoring process. What i gave you was a fragment from the resulting encode which you stated had no flags on it. For target format i put "NTSC FILM", the hell if i know what that does, but apparently it doesnt add any flags, feel free to download the program and see for yourself. What, do you want me to mail you the DVD? I can give you a clip that does have the flag on it and you can see the ugly pulldown, then you can encode both yourself, one with and one without and see what happens.

[Guest]

I asked twice now for a fragment of the VOB (not an M2V). Nothing else proves anything. If you don't want to provide it, then I'll just go away and let you carry on any way you want.

It's also clear that you are equivocating now. You have been claiming all along that your source has no soft pulldown flags, even going so far as to say this:

It would be rather psychotic if the DVD manufacturers intentionally put such a thing in their movies Now, when I have proven you incorrect, you change your claim and refuse to provide the evidence to prove it. Here's what would prove your new claim: a VOB fragment from your claimed 24 fps DVD. I have told you a simple way to obtain a VOB fragment. The ball is in your court, my friend.

[ettin]

Ive been following this thread for a while and tried to send poof a PM, but i got a message that his account had been suspended.

So let me get this straight, you offer up a challenge to have him prove his case, then you suspend his account preventing him from replying?

You know, trolling is only effective when no one knows your name, Donald Graft. I'll remember you next time im looking for a video engineer.

[manono]

He wasn't suspended for anything he said in this thread. Don't jump to conclusions. I wouldn't be surprised if you get struck yourself for your ignorant and insulting comments, but I won't be the one to do it.

[Guest]

Ive been following this thread for a while and tried to send poof a PM, but i got a message that his account had been suspended.

So let me get this straight, you offer up a challenge to have him prove his case, then you suspend his account preventing him from replying?

You know, trolling is only effective when no one knows your name, Donald Graft. I'll remember you next time im looking for a video engineer. You assume the two were intentionally linked when they were not. If Poof got himself suspended it's nothing to do with this thread.

He can post his response when his suspension ends. Or you can post the VOB link for him. I'm still interested in getting to the bottom of this. He can even email the link to me at neuron2 {at} comcast.net and I'll post it for him here, along with any comment he might have about it.

Most people know my name. It's in big letters at my website home page, and my tools start with DG. Did you miss all that?

Anyway, I see that you are prone to senseless rants against the people that give their free time and energy to provide free tools for you.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1179086#post1179086