"Mini-BluRay" (DL-DVD) encoded with MeGUI BD-SAP preset does not play on non-PS3 SAP

[LigH]

Greetings.

A member of the german doom9 / Gleitz board reports that he often tries to burn AVC material muxed to BluRay structure with tsMuxeR, and wants to play it on a commercial BluRay SAP which is not the PS3 (we are waiting for the model name).

Some videos from different sources worked for him. Some did not because they were encoded with a higher Profile@Level or complexity. So he thought to re-encode those with MeGUI and the preset "x264: SA-Blu-ray". Unfortunately, those didn't work for him either -- black screen, just the dts audio played.

We compared all reported options of the video stream, no reason found why a player would refuse it. If you have good experience, and understand a little german, or just need the numbers, please have a look here:

http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread.php?t=38246

[CruNcher]

hmm i would suspect either chroma_qp_offset=-2 or some VBV stuff creating the problems again with this SAP :( this is really crazy one Device works 1 doesn't geez
let him try to disable psy-rd yes i know it sounds crazy tough you never know :) if it then works it was the chroma_qp_offset else he could try todo aud or pictiming (he just needs to try everything possible something should work :P

[LigH]

P.S.: It's a Panasonic DMP-BD30

[CruNcher]

LigH tell him to use the SA-Blu-Ray profile as base and try to find out whats couseing the problem i guess it would be enough to make small test encodes and test them on the Player with different settings for this and then see which works and which doesn't trial and error so to speak, but black screen cries for that he scans the sei finds a option that he doesn't like and stops the playback of the video track whyever. Maybe in the Blu-Ray specs chroma_qp_offset of -2 isnt allowed @ all and some Player accept it some don't.

[Zwitterion]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14522017

Seems like a firmware issue.

[CruNcher]

Sure but why is the question N1KLAS doesn't experience any VBV issues (slow playback,stutter,or crashs) he experience a black screen (no playback stream is rejected) imho that is something entire different. SAP Firmware don't allow any compromise if they don't like the stream whyever they just reject it or in Sonys case show a nice icon that it is corrupt, it might be even because of the bitrate it reads out of the bitstream avg,min,max when it doesn't like that for the current media (it should be playbacked from) it could also reject the stream (possibilities nowdays to restrict stuff are endless). For example you could even restrict a SAP to Play any X264 Encoded content @ all if you (Manifacture) wish that

[G_M_C]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14522017

Seems like a firmware issue.

That's what i'd say (out of experiance) (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1167281#post1167281)

[turbojet]

Try using --keyint 250 --min-keyint 25 which are x264 defaults.
Also --nal-hrd isn't needed with tsmuxer, it substantially lowers the effeciency.

[Sharktooth]

those keyint values are out of specs. also --nal-hrd doesnt lower the efficiency and tsmuxer just add the missing info if the stream doesnt have them... so it's basically the same... dont suggest settings if you dont know what you're talking about.

[turbojet]

I've personally tested a US BD30 as well as a few other players in store
--keyint 24 = refuses to play on BD30
--keyint 250 = plays fine on all

taking out --nal-hrd made no effect to the results, and it substantally lowers effeciency

its not just coincidence people are using ripbot264 with these settings and not reporting any issues with playback on standalones.

feel free to test yourself if you don't trust me...

[Sharktooth]

then the BD30s and the other players you tried are not spec compliant blu-ray players (hence they're not blu ray players...) or they had BIG firmware issues (making them not compilant). also where's the proof --nal-hrd is substancially lowering the efficiency? that's pure BS. some info added to the stream do not affect the encoder efficiency. also they do not eat up enough bits to significantly lower the video bitrate... so, again, dont speak unless you know what you're talking about. anyways tsmuxer will add those info if those are missing so... it's the same as encoding with --nal-hrd...

[G_M_C]

I've personally tested a US BD30 as well as a few other players in store
--keyint 24 = refuses to play on BD30
--keyint 250 = plays fine on all

taking out --nal-hrd made no effect to the results, and it substantally lowers effeciency

its not just coincidence people are using ripbot264 with these settings and not reporting any issues with playback on standalones.

feel free to test yourself if you don't trust me...

Did you read the post i linked to ? I comment on this subject based on the fact that I actually own a BD30 btw ...

I allways use key-int == framerate (rounded), min-keyint=1; and it allways works. See for my commandline the post i linked too.

[Sharktooth]

he's telling lies. there arent ANY blu-ray players that wont play --keyint 24 since most of the pressed blu-rays are encoded with that keyint and that value is spec compliant, while 250 is NOT and gets rejected by authoring softwares...
if it works on the PS3 it doesnt mean it will work on real BD players. the PS3 is not a BD player... it's a console that can play BDs and does not enforce the BD specs/restrictions...

[G_M_C]

he's telling lies. there arent ANY blu-ray players that wont play --keyint 24 since most of the pressed blu-rays are encoded with that keyint and that value is spec compliant, while 250 is NOT and gets rejected by authoring softwares...

I remembered reading about keyframes, and that article mentioned that the that the keyint was related to the number of frames in 1 second (so basically key-int=framerate, rounded off). That should also mean that it theoretically can be max 30, right ? (I'm assuming that 59,94 is field-deinterlaced 29,97)

Cant remember exactly where i read about this, but maybe i can find it again.

[Sharktooth]

by logic, it should be true.

[N1KLAS]

Hi everybody :P
Now i can finally write.. :)

At first, THX to everybody who wants to help..

..So.., firstly i tried to make the firmware update of my Panasonic DMP-BD30 Blu-ray Player.
Before i had the firmware version 1.5, and now i updated to 1.7, the latest version.
And now, every video is playing :), (even without encoding) ..
Videos which didn't work before are playing now after the Firmware-Update :)

[Sagittaire]

I remembered reading about keyframes, and that article mentioned that the that the keyint was related to the number of frames in 1 second (so basically key-int=framerate, rounded off). That should also mean that it theoretically can be max 30, right ? (I'm assuming that 59,94 is field-deinterlaced 29,97)

Cant remember exactly where i read about this, but maybe i can find it again.

Yes the max gop for BD is 1 sec. There are many other specifications too for BD stream.


I've personally tested a US BD30 as well as a few other players in store
--keyint 24 = refuses to play on BD30
--keyint 250 = plays fine on all

It's false. You can't use these stream with authoring software and hardware playback. Stream must be at 1 sec for max gop and anything else. It's like DVD: you must use 0.606 sec for max gop. Moreover if keyint 24 work then keyint 250 must work simply because in practice x264 with scenecut will never respect keyint 250. You make confusion: mkv or mp4 on BDRom optical disk is not Blu Disk. It's like avi on DVDRom. Blu Disk have really restristive specification like DVD: m2ts file, BD strucure file, particular specification for audio and video ... etc etc


taking out --nal-hrd made no effect to the results, and it substantally lowers effeciency

As far I know it's fasle. It's just tag for ES. There are no effect on the encoding. You can even use little exe for make that after the encoding itself.

[turbojet]

I stand corrected on the --nal-hrd size of m2ts. When I did my last tests, about 6 months ago, I must have only paid attention to mkv size. which it does save signifigant bits but like sharktooth said tsmuxer adds the bits back and the m2ts is roughly the same size.

Like I said this was in store, I dont know what firmware version it had. I tried multiple BD30's and not one of them played a ~2 minute trailer, with a max 24 keyframe interval BD muxed with tsmuxer, but all played max 250 keyframe interval also BD muxed with tsmuxer. These same players were playing retail blurays in store. Possibly old firmware, which would mean OP issue would have been resolved with what I mentioned, but also a firmware update by the looks of it.

Specs aside, I think it's pretty nice that all the players I tested, which were most out at that time, support the longer distance keyframes. It sure helps effeciency.

[G_M_C]

Hi everybody :P
Now i can finally write.. :)

At first, THX to everybody who wants to help..

..So.., firstly i tried to make the firmware update of my Panasonic DMP-BD30 Blu-ray Player.
Before i had the firmware version 1.5, and now i updated to 1.7, the latest version.
And now, every video is playing :), (even without encoding) ..
Videos which didn't work before are playing now after the Firmware-Update :)

Yup, with FW 1.7 i's a damn fine player. With a BR-burner, you can simply transmux the original main movie M2TS with selected audio/subs etc to a new BR with tsMuxeR.

[Sagittaire]

Like I said this was in store, I dont know what firmware version it had. I tried multiple BD30's and not one of them played a ~2 minute trailer, with a max 24 keyframe interval, but all played max 250 keyframe interval. These same players were playing retail blurays in store. Possibly old firmware, which would mean OP issue would have been resolved with what I mentioned, but also a firmware update by the looks of it.


No you make simply confusion between DivX and DVD. For make DVD you must use DVD authoring software. It's like that with BD movie too. You don't test BD movie on your SAP but more certainely AVCHD or "DivX like" on BDRom. Your SAP can simply read no official stream like some DVD SAP can read "DivX" movie. m2ts file alone is not a valid BD structure.

[turbojet]

No you make simply confusion between DivX and DVD. For make DVD you must use DVD authoring software. It's like that with BD movie too. You don't test BD movie on your SAP but more certainely AVCHD or "DivX like" on BDRom. Your SAP can simply read no official stream like some DVD SAP can read "DivX" movie. m2ts file alone is not a valid BD structure.

So you are saying tsmuxer bluray disc doesn't output the same kind of BD that commercial products like scenarist does?

The tsmuxer structure looks identical to retail structure. I don't have the money to buy scenarist, even if I did I wouldn't buy it as tsmuxer does what i need it to do.

The way I understand AVCHD structure is PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV and retail bluray and whatever you want to call tsmuxer output is just /BDMV. I have no experience with an AVCHD camera or that type of structure.

Some players see the tsmuxer output as AVCHD, some see it as BD, BLURAY, BR, BRD, or BDROM

[CruNcher]

Sagittaire is telling the true belive it Blu-Ray isn't AVCHD one is Professional and one is Consumer this is a new concept which was done initialy to protect the underlaying hardware from being hacked and to make even more License Money (createing a consumer based economy wich is easy in use by a Logo Programm), they detect it for a reason as AVCHD even with a Blu-Ray structure because it's no (Real) Blu-Ray a Blu-Ray needs AACS it is mandatory those Player that detect it as Blu-Ray are wrong or does tsmuxer provides also a AACS key ?. The newest License idea is BDREC even more money for Sony :D

[G_M_C]

No you make simply confusion between DivX and DVD. For make DVD you must use DVD authoring software. It's like that with BD movie too. You don't test BD movie on your SAP but more certainely AVCHD or "DivX like" on BDRom. Your SAP can simply read no official stream like some DVD SAP can read "DivX" movie. m2ts file alone is not a valid BD structure.

Yes i know, i wrote M2TS out of lazyness ;)

I could have written ./BDMV/Stream/*.M2TS but it comes down to the same, because i mean the actual movie-file itself :p

[Sagittaire]

So you are saying tsmuxer bluray disc doesn't output the same kind of BD that commercial products like scenarist does?

The tsmuxer structure looks identical to retail structure. I don't have the money to buy scenarist, even if I did I wouldn't buy it as tsmuxer does what i need it to do.

The way I understand AVCHD structure is PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV and retail bluray and whatever you want to call tsmuxer output is just /BDMV. I have no experience with an AVCHD camera or that type of structure.

Some players see the tsmuxer output as AVCHD, some see it as BD, BLURAY, BR, BRD, or BDROM


Anyway there are not possible discution about really clear BD specifications. Compliant stream must have 1 sec for max gop. It's like that and anything else is compliant BD stream. tsmuxer don't produce compliant BD stream. Your SAP can play these stream like some DVD player can read vob out of spec. Anyway these file are not compliant DVD stream.