Getting Theora competitive [Archive]

benwaggoner

15th August 2008, 22:23

It seams that development of Theora is finally getting somewhere (http://xiphmont.livejournal.com/35363.html). Hopefully, they don't stop just at this.
Given they haven't enabled rate control for the new stuff, yes hopefully they don't just stop at this :).

http://xiphmont.livejournal.com/35363.html?thread=57635#t57635

Still, impressive gains. As always, the quality of the implementation is much more important that the codec standard itself.

LigH

18th September 2008, 11:48

Which are, by the way, rather current and complete implementations? I would like to test Theora myself - which implementation should I prefer? I found for Win32:
ffmpeg2theora as CLI (do not yet know if this is able to read from AviSynth, but possibly - when used in MediaCoder and SUPER)
ffdshow's VfW codec (where I could use VirtualDubMod to create OGM or MKV to mux it with Ogg Vorbis audio)
Which would be your current recommendations?

clsid

18th September 2008, 12:07

ffdshow still uses an old version of libtheora (1.0b3 from the top of my head). So I would not recommend that one.

LigH

18th September 2008, 17:33

Library 1.0b3 is still the most recent, according to http://theora.org/news/ ... But ffdshow has no detailed 2-pass control enabled for Theora.

I'm fine with CLI encoders. Just hope that there is a way to serve AVS to ffmpeg2theora.

Sharktooth

18th September 2008, 17:39

avs2yuv?

clsid

18th September 2008, 18:15

Then I mixed up versions. ffdshow uses an old version from 2006. I tried updating it to latest SVN a while ago, compiled fine and all, but playback was a unstable with it. I suspect some changes are needed at the ffdshow side, due to some API changes in the library.

LigH

19th September 2008, 09:19

@ Sharktooth:

avs2yuv sounds useful, unfortunately I seem to miss some details about the usage...

avs2yuv.exe -raw $.avs -o - | ffmpeg2theora.exe -f raw -o $.ogv -
$.avs: 720x576, 25 fps, 520 frames

File `pipe:' does not exist or has an unknown data format.
Output error: wrote only 590400 of 622080 bytes

---------------------------
avs2yuv.exe - Fehler in Anwendung
---------------------------
Die Anweisung in "0x00ac98f4" verweist auf Speicher in "0x00a97318". Der Vorgang
"read" konnte nicht auf dem Speicher durchgeführt werden.

Klicken Sie auf "OK", um das Programm zu beenden.
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

I am not sure if the "raw" output format from avs2yuv (I420) is compatible to the "raw" input format expected by ffmpeg2theora.

LigH

22nd September 2008, 10:15

P.S.: "raw" may be the wrong mode, ffmpeg2theora would not know the dimensions then. Unfortunately, there is no help of available input formats ("ffmpeg2theora -f help" would be useful); so I could only assume that the little hint from avs2yuv would lead me somewhere: "Output format is yuv4mpeg, as used by MPlayer and mjpegtools". So I tried:

avs2yuv.exe $.avs -o - | ffmpeg2theora.exe -f yuv4mpeg -o $.ogv -
$.avs: 720x576, 25 fps, 520 frames

File `pipe:' does not exist or has an unknown data format.
Output error: wrote only 590400 of 622080 bytes

---------------------------
avs2yuv.exe - Fehler in Anwendung
---------------------------
Die Anweisung in "0x00ac98f4" verweist auf Speicher in "0x00a972f8". Der Vorgang
"read" konnte nicht auf dem Speicher durchgeführt werden.

Klicken Sie auf "OK", um das Programm zu beenden.
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

Apparently, the reason must be the pipe handling in general. Tested under Win32 (Windows XP Pro).
__

Now I tried with temporary file:

avs2yuv.exe $.avs -o $.y4m

That worked, but displayed the same crash dialog while finishing.

Now using this temporary file:

ffmpeg2theora.exe -f yuv4mpeg -o $.ogv $.y4m
Input #0, yuv4mpegpipe, from '$.y4m':
Duration: N/A, bitrate: N/A
Stream #0.0: Video: rawvideo, yuv420p, 720x576, 25.00 fps(r)
Resize: 720x576
0:00:20.80 audio: 0kbps video: 2239kbps, time remaining: 00:00:00

So this one worked. Just not the piping.

The created Theora video looked fine.

bond

22nd September 2008, 18:54

there is also a "reference encoder" binary for windows available, once compiling the official source itself, called encoder_example.exe

it takes avs2yuv output piped as input

LigH

23rd September 2008, 11:16

I'll thank anyone in advance for offering a Win32 build. ;)

Or JuanCC for linking AviSynth support into ffmpeg2theora.

LigH

11th October 2008, 17:56

Great! (BTW: "Tusnelda" is a stereotype forename for a "house dragon" kind of woman, in Germany...)

Unfortunately, no reply from celtic_druid until today. Did someone scare him off?

hellfred

11th October 2008, 20:47

Read here (http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora-dev/2008-October/003714.html). The classic encoder will soon be release as Theora 1.0, the Thunsnelda encoder will become Theora 1.1.

hellfred

11th October 2008, 20:59

There was a series of five pages introducing the work done on the Thunsnelda branch:
First (http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo.html)
Second (http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo2.html)
Third (http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo3.html)
Fourth (http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo4.html)
Latest (http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo5.html).
Lets hope that Monty will soon find time again to work on the encoder. The progress can be monitored via xiph's trac web interface (https://trac.xiph.org/log/branches/theora-thusnelda).

hellfred

29th October 2008, 13:57

The second release candidate of the Theora codec was released[1]:The Xiph.Org Foundation is pleased to announce the second release candidate of libtheora 1.0. This second release candidate corrects all bugs found in final testing of the first release candidate, and will become 1.0 final in one week if no new 'blockers' are found.

[1] http://www.theora.org/news/

Rasi

9th November 2008, 14:06

Theora 1.0 has finally been released...

... eagerly awaiting 1.1 with thusnelda :)

hellfred

9th November 2008, 19:47

Does anybody know why Xiph.org is off-line for +48 hours. At least I can not access the web pages,wiki and mailing list archive. Were they sued by some big patent holder?

Rasi

9th November 2008, 20:17

Does anybody know why Xiph.org is off-line for +48 hours. At least I can not access the web pages,wiki and mailing list archive. Were they sued by some big patent holder?

works fine here

hellfred

10th November 2008, 16:07

OK, now I can access those sites again, too. But I still have not idea of what was going on up to now.

Update: When having a look at the timeline (https://trac.xiph.org/timeline) of the Xiph Trac server, one can see that there was a very unusual period of inactivity from the 5th. to the 9th. of November.

khagaroth

29th March 2009, 10:21

Theora 1.1 alpha 1 (http://www.xiph.org/press/2009/thusnelda-alpha-1/) released. There are also some binaries (http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora-dev/2009-March/003889.html).

bond

29th March 2009, 16:58

anyone having info and what has been enhanced in this new version?

hellfred

29th March 2009, 21:26

anyone having info and what has been enhanced in this new version?
Have a look at the commits of tterribe at https://trac.xiph.org/timeline for the latest change. I think it was manly refactoring of rate control stuff. Earlier improvements where documented by Monty in his set of reports for Red Hat mentioned here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1193803#post1193803).
As a side node: AFAIK Tim Terriberry is to work fulltime on the Thusnelda codebase (blog (http://xiphmont.livejournal.com/38681.html)).

Hellfred

bond

30th March 2009, 19:23

:thanks:

buzzqw

10th June 2009, 16:03

i have update the autoffmpeg2theora gui

http://www.64k.it/andres/data/autofftheora/AutoFFmpegTheora-v1.3.exe

BHH

iwod

10th June 2009, 18:23

Wow.... i just want to say that Embedded Video with Theora inside Firefox works much better then my expectation. It feels it is part of the page and web.

I really hope some Magic will happen to Theora. It doesn't have to beat x264. But beating XVID will be good enough.

hellfred

12th June 2009, 13:59

I really hope some Magic will happen to Theora. It doesn't have to beat x264. But beating XVID will be good enough.If Theora manges to reach XVID quality, than that is a quite impressiv result. Do not forget that Theora can not make use of all the nice video compression technics, as it tries to avoid those covered by patents - and that are quite a lot of the relevant video coding technics...

Dark Shikari

12th June 2009, 17:27

If Theora manges to reach XVID quality, than that is a quite impressiv result. Do not forget that Theora can not make use of all the nice video compression technics, as it tries to avoid those covered by patents - and that are quite a lot of the relevant video coding technics...Theora doesn't "try" to avoid anything. In fact, the Software Freedom Law Center says that Theora being patent-free is completely made up:05:09 <mru> on2 has several patents
05:09 <mru> they licenced them to xiph
05:09 <BBB> on2 licensed them with sublicensing to xiph, right?
05:09 <BBB> but on2 is fine
05:09 <Dark_Shikari> the question though is if OTHERS exist
05:09 <BBB> they *know* there are
05:10 <BBB> they *know* some of the parties
05:10 <Dark_Shikari> and not all were licensed to xiph?
05:10 <BBB> exactly
05:10 <BBB> so the whole theora thing is a blowup
...
05:13 <DonDiego> BBB: the sflc told you which parties?
05:13 <DonDiego> own patents on theora i mean
05:14 <BBB> 2
05:15 <BBB> the question is whether they will enforce them
05:15 <mru> BBB: no, that's not the question
05:15 <mru> stealing is illegal, even if you get away with it
05:16 <mru> same for patent infringement

hellfred

12th June 2009, 17:56

Theora doesn't "try" to avoid anything. In fact, the Software Freedom Law Center says that Theora being patent-free is completely made up:
I am not sure if I got you right. On2 has licenced patent technics for VP3.2 but has not sublicenced those to xiph?
Is it known, when these patents will expire?
DonDiego is from FFmpeg.
Is mru = Måns Rullgård
Who is BBB?

Dark Shikari

12th June 2009, 18:04

I am not sure if I got you right. On2 has licenced patent technics for VP3.2 but has not sublicenced those to xiph?No, On2 is not the only company that owns patents on VP3. It sublicensed all of the patents that it owned to Xiph. However, at least two other companies own VP3 patents and have not sublicensed them to Xiph.

vlada

12th June 2009, 19:49

Dark Shikari> Do you know what are those 2 patents and who owns them? Are they valid?

Dark Shikari

12th June 2009, 20:02

Dark Shikari> Do you know what are those 2 patents and who owns them? Are they valid?I didn't say "two patents," I said "two other companies which own patents." You'd have to ask the SFLC for specifics, I assume.

iwod

13th June 2009, 03:06

Since we are on the topic, is Software Patents only available in US. Personally i think it is the stupidest idea.....

hellfred

14th June 2009, 07:51

No, On2 is not the only company that owns patents on VP3. It sublicensed all of the patents that it owned to Xiph. However, at least two other companies own VP3 patents and have not sublicensed them to Xiph.Thank you for clearing that up. I hope that xiph can sort out that problem and we really do have a codec in the MPEG4-ASP class with less to no restrictions.

benwaggoner

14th June 2009, 21:36

Slashdot's now citing the discredited PSNR test as part of a thread about how Theora is every bit as good as H.264.

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/14/1649237/YouTube-HTML5-and-Comparing-H264-With-Theora

Citing this example:
http://people.xiph.org/~greg/video/ytcompare/comparison.html

Which is...problematic.

nakTT

14th June 2009, 21:40

Any GUI for this codec (like MeGUI) that I can use to try it out?

benwaggoner

15th June 2009, 00:29

Any GUI for this codec (like MeGUI) that I can use to try it out?
Yep, see post #26 above :).

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1295637&postcount=26

You can then download the latest ffmpeg2theora build and use them together.

Theora's definitely getting better. Although it's hard to say exactly what it's doing for rate control without any kind of VBV constraint; seems like it's some kind of 1-pass ABR?

nakTT

15th June 2009, 01:23

Yep, see post #26 above :).

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1295637&postcount=26

You can then download the latest ffmpeg2theora build and use them together.

Theora's definitely getting better. Although it's hard to say exactly what it's doing for rate control without any kind of VBV constraint; seems like it's some kind of 1-pass ABR?
Many thanks for the info.

I have done everything including pressing the start button but it doesn't seem to work. Btw, I use both normal and experimental Thusnelda from here:

http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/download.html

None of them working. Anyone please advice.

buzzqw

15th June 2009, 07:10

add work to queue and past here the line

BHH

buzzqw

15th June 2009, 08:48

update the ffmpeg2theora gui

http://www.64k.it/andres/data/autofftheora/AutoFFmpegTheora-v1.4.exe

fixed some audio detection issue
other minor bug fix

BHH

nakTT

15th June 2009, 09:06

add work to queue and past here the line

BHH
Done that in my previous attempt but nothing happen.

"C:\Users\My\Desktop\Theora\ffmpeg2theora-0.24.exe" -o "C:\Users\My\Desktop\111.ogv" -V 0 --optimize -x 576 -y 432 --aspect 1.3333 -A 24 -c 2 --audiostream "Z:\Movies\Test.avi"

buzzqw

15th June 2009, 09:14

ok, download the 1.4 :)

BHH

nakTT

15th June 2009, 09:45

ok, download the 1.4 :)

BHH
Done that but to no avail. Now it can't even read my input video files. Here is the screenshot:

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7013/screentxv.jpg (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/screentxv.jpg/)

buzzqw

15th June 2009, 09:48

post the file ffmpeg2theoraanalysis.txt
maybe your file isn't well supported by ffmpeg2theora

you can fill the missing information on gui

also.. post the command line (add to queue and copy&paste here)

BHH

LigH

15th June 2009, 10:06

What are "proprierties"?! - Possibly "properties". Somehow I feel like "attributes" might match better. But I am not native english.

nakTT

15th June 2009, 10:09

Thanks for the response.

I have fill everything accept the "Number of Frames" Which i don't know and it just doesn't work.

ffmpeg2theoraanalysis.txt

[audio disabled].
[video disabled].
No video or audio stream found.

nakTT

15th June 2009, 10:11

What are "proprierties"?! - Possibly "properties". Somehow I feel like "attributes" might match better. But I am not native english.
The dialogbox appear after you click "Open File" and open the file that you want to encode (source).

buzzqw

15th June 2009, 10:14

What are "proprierties"?! - Possibly "properties". Somehow I feel like "attributes" might match better. But I am not native english.

thanks fixed

ffmpeg2theoraanalysis.txt

[audio disabled].
[video disabled].
No video or audio stream found.

your file isn't supported by ffmpeg2theora.exe, sorry

try another one

BHH