DVD Decrypter Region Free not converting PAL to NTSC

[charles_i]

Hello Group,

I have a PAL video that I want to convert to NTSC. I have successfully removed copy protection and changed the Region to Region Free - it now shows 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 in DVD Decrypter, but it will not play in my NTSC DVD player. Any ideas? Do I need to specifically set the Region to 1?

When I load it into ConvertXtoDVD it says the region is still PAL. ConvertXtoDVD seems to do a great job of converting to NTSC (I just have to buy it now) - but I'm wondering why chaning it in DVD Decrypter doesn't work.

Thanks!

[thepfy]

All you did in DVD Decrypter was change the Region Code . It did not Transcode the video format from PAL to NTSC.

DVD Decrypter will decrypt, make region free but that's about it.

[dialysis1]

Region code explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_region_codes

[setarip_old]

@charles_i

Hi!it says the region is still PALNo, it says the FORMAT is still PAL. Formats (NTSC and PAL) have to do with frequency and number of scanlines, whereas Region code is (as you've discovered) a simplistic attempt at limiting playback to specific areas in the world...

[dat720]

To convert a DVD from pal you will need to transcode, during the transcode you will need to change the framerate from 25fps to 23.976/29.97....

Changing teh region code simply changes which DVD players will be able to play the disc, if the player can't playback a PAL disc then it will still fail to play.

Maybe a quick and dirty solution would be to demux the DVD to a mpg file then use something like DVD Flick to convert the mpg to a NTSC DVD.

[bourke]

...
Maybe a quick and dirty solution would be to demux the DVD to a mpg file then use something like DVD Flick to convert the mpg to a NTSC DVD.I haven't tried, but something like AviDeMux should handle it.

[charles_i]

Thanks for the info. I get it now. Tried Avidemux but it can't open the files. Answering either "yes" or "no" to the "indexing" question still results in "Could not open file". I think I'll buy ConvertXto DVD since it did an awesome job on a test I did with another DVD by just setting it to NTSC - without having to worry about conversion rates.

[blutach]

Try SUPER - it's free.

Also cheaper than purchasing software is to purchase a player that plays both formats.

Regards

[charles_i]

I have a $50 player that plays all formats - but not very well, frequently stops and skips because it's a piece of junk. You get what you pay for :)

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

Oppo is the way I'd go if I were to invest money in a good player that will handle both NTSC and PAL. Of course other players can do that already but they don't always do it well.

On the software front you have a number of options. Without a fast system the software solutions are not only less than optimal quality-wise but they are also annoying because you cannot preserve menus.

[blutach]

Maybe your media is not real good. Shift to Taiyo Yuden or Verbatims, if you are not already using them.

Regards

[blutach]

On the software front you have a number of options. Without a fast system the software solutions are not only less than optimal quality-wise but they are also annoying because you cannot preserve menus.
You can if you also re-encode them and move the subpics into the correct positions with DVD SubEdit, for example.

Regards

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

You can if you also re-encode them and move the subpics into the correct positions with DVD SubEdit, for example.

Regards

Valid point.

Most people I've run across who wish to do this wouldn't know where to begin with the method you noted above, though.

[charles_i]

SUPER looks like an amazing program. Now I'm trying to find details on how to convert an already prepared (region free, copy protect free) PAL DVD to NTSC using SUPER. I see lots of info and detail on NTSC to PAL - not much on PAL to NTSC.

[blutach]

Just dial up the framerates you require. Do a little test and burn it on an RW to see how you go.

Regards

[k-c-ksum]

you could also try just modifying the ifo's with "ifoedit" to fool your player into thinking its an ntsc disc

[linx05]

you could also try just modifying the ifo's with "ifoedit" to fool your player into thinking its an ntsc disc
This won't always work and it is only a rough hack. My only advice when it comes to these sort of questions is to buy a DVD player which is region free and plays both PAL and NTSC. You will save yourself so much time and hassle.

[dat720]

That's an excelent point, cheap DVD player's these day's can be had for $50 and playback any region/format!

[Wombler]

This won't always work and it is only a rough hack. My only advice when it comes to these sort of questions is to buy a DVD player which is region free and plays both PAL and NTSC. You will save yourself so much time and hassle.

The reason that it doesn't always work is that the TV also has to support PAL playback unless the DVD player supports some form of PAL to NTSC conversion.

In Europe almost all modern DVD Players and TVs natively support both standards although even then there's a PAL 60 conversion mode on a lot of DVD players that will convert NTSC to PAL for TVs that don't support NTSC natively.

Historically I know that PAL support in the US is rare.

I did a very brief search online though and you can get players that do dynamic PAL to NTSC conversion such as the Philips DVP642 for around $50 but there may be other cheaper alternatives available.


Wombler

[setarip_old]

@Wombler

Hi!The reason that it doesn't always work is that the TV also has to support PAL playback unless the DVD player supports some form of PAL to NTSC conversion.Speaking from personal experience, that doesn't always seem to be the case.

A year or so ago, I purchased the R4/PAL version of the "Third Watch" TV series (which, although a U.S. series, was not available as R1/NTSC). I performed the "One minute down and dirty" .IFO conversion on each disc - and, much to my surprise, they all play properly on all systems, including on an NTSC-only SONY DVD player connected to an ancient NTSC-only TV.

The thought occurred to me that perhaps the fact that the TV series was originally created for display on U.S. televisions might have something to do with the success of my conversion...

[dat720]

setarip_old, even tho the content is PAL the player is actually outputting a NTSC signal which the TV would not have a problem with. But this does depend on the DVD Player's them selves, if they do any framerate/resolution checking or they just beleave the ifo file.

10 years ago i purchased a Palsonic DVD-3000, best purchase i ever made, it's still alive and working perfectly, its region free, pal/ntsc and ignores macrovision!!!!
Back then it cost $300 same sort of thing these days can be had for 40 or 50.

[blutach]

The thought occurred to me that perhaps the fact that the TV series was originally created for display on U.S. televisions might have something to do with the success of my conversion... Technically impossible. The framerates of PAL are different from NTSC.

Regards

[setarip_old]

@blutachTechnically impossible. The framerates of PAL are different from NTSC.Then are you saying that the statements made by "dat720" in post #21 are totally incorrect?

[blutach]

No, I am saying what YOU said is incorrect. The fact that the video was originally created for the US has nothing to do with the encoding framerate. That is totally ludicrous.

Regards

[setarip_old]

@blutach

My speculation may be wrong but, in addition to that, what you've stated would seem to contradict the statement by "dat720":

You statedThe framerates of PAL are different from NTSC.

I merely changed information in the .IFOs - so that wouldn't have done anything to change the actual encoding framerate, which would remain at 25Fps, right?

Yet "dat720" statedeven tho the content is PAL the player is actually outputting a NTSC signal which the TV would not have a problem with.The NTSC signal would result in a 23.976/24Fps or 29.970/30Fps display. If, as you imply, the actual encoding rate is 25Fps, how could it display properly at NTSC framerates?

[blutach]

That pushes my technical limits and I have no idea of dat720's players' capabilities and the intricacies of how they work.

However, I do know that the "patch method" (i.e. changing one byte in an IFO) does nothing to change the way the VOB is encoded, including such important things such as framerate, resolution or mux (max GOP length is different under PAL). The fact that it seems to work sometimes might be one of life's little unexplained mysteries.

Regards

[setarip_old]

the "patch method" (i.e. changing one byte in an IFO)No big deal but, for the sake of accuracy, the method requires changing a few .IFO entries - regarding Menu Attributes (PAL to NTSC) and Video Attributes (PAL to NTSC and 720x576 to 720x480) and, of course, changing the Region number to 1 (or 0)...

The fact that it seems to work sometimes might be one of life's little unexplained mysteries.Although I've read posts in many forums suggesting that this method sometimes fails, I've personally not seen any such postings identifying a specific Title of a PAL to NTSC DVD "patch" conversion that DIDN'T play properly...

[Video Dude]

Although I've read posts in many forums suggesting that this method sometimes fails, I've personally not seen any such postings identifying a specific Title of a PAL to NTSC DVD "patch" conversion that DIDN'T play properly...

It is player specific. If the "patch" works on your player, all PAL titles will work with the patch applied with that player.

This "patch" does not work on any of my players (Toshiba and Panasonic). I do all conversions manually using the dgpulldown method.

There are also a number of players in NTSC land that can play region free PAL discs (like the Philips divx enabled player). If you have one of these players there is no need to apply the "patch".

[dat720]

It's something to do with the mpeg decoder's ability to pad or drop frames to feed to the output device's, if it can't pad or drop then it probably won't work.....

[setarip_old]

@Video Dude

Hi!It is player specific...This "patch" does not work on any of my players (Toshiba and Panasonic).Perhaps it's MODEL-specific within a brand - because my Toshiba HD-A3, which won't play the original PAL versions, or versions with just the Region number changed, plays the "patched" versions perfectly - as do another four different brands (G.E., SONY, Philips, and Magnavox), ranging in age from over five years to less than one year. Interesting.

Perhaps there's a member who's a DVD player tech, that can provide some additional hard info...

[Wombler]

It's something to do with the mpeg decoder's ability to pad or drop frames to feed to the output device's, if it can't pad or drop then it probably won't work.....

That's interesting as as I'd been wondering ever since I read about the 'patch' method as to how it could ever possibly work.

It would also explain the reports of problems with this method involving intermittent stuttering/jitter with audio and video.

In theory the 'patch' method seems impossible but obviously not. :)

As Video Dude has said it's player specific but it seems that very few models are capable of this and even fewer will produce acceptable results.


Wombler

[Wombler]

There are also a number of players in NTSC land that can play region free PAL discs (like the Philips divx enabled player). If you have one of these players there is no need to apply the "patch".

That's probably the best compromise route and it's the method I would choose rather than spending too much time doing a full conversion.

Way more convenient.

I know there are very slight issues with dynamic conversion going from NTSC to 'PAL 60' and I'm not sure if this is the case going from PAL to 'NTSC 50' as I live in PAL land but even so the results are good enough here to satisfy everyone but the perfectionists.

The conversion facilities built into PAL DVD players here in the UK are really just a fall back though as most equipment here also supports NTSC.

I've only ever come across circumstances where I've had to set this up once, for my father-in-law who has an old TV.


Wombler

[Wombler]

Yet "dat720" statedThe NTSC signal would result in a 23.976/24Fps or 29.970/30Fps display. If, as you imply, the actual encoding rate is 25Fps, how could it display properly at NTSC framerates? [/Color]

It's not true NTSC but a pseudo version.

Possibly something similar to the players that dynamically convert from PAL to 'NTSC 50'.

As far as I understand it these players generate a signal which is compatible with an NTSC television but at 25fps (50 fields per second).

Perhaps your player is actually outputting 'NTSC 50'?

To produce a true NTSC signal dynamically you need dedicated hardware (a digital converter) but in my mind it's not really worth the effort or expense unless you're involved in video production or something else that specifically warrants it.


Wombler

[setarip_old]

As Video Dude has said it's player specific but it seems that very few models are capable of this and even fewer will produce acceptable results. And your source for this statement is what?

I ask because, as I stated in Post #30 here, my Toshiba HD-A3, which won't play the original PAL versions, or versions with just the Region number changed, plays the "patched" versions perfectly - as do another four different brands (G.E., SONY, Philips, and Magnavox), ranging in age from over five years to less than one year.

Although not impossible, if what you stated was correct, I wonder what the odds would be that my five different brands and models of standalone players would all properly play back my "patched" DVDs?

[dat720]

That's interesting as as I'd been wondering ever since I read about the 'patch' method as to how it could ever possibly work.

Don't qoute me on that, im barking back to my day's (many many days ago!!!) at tafe where we covered a subject on all sorts of DAC's ADC's and Decoder/Encoder chip's.

[setarip_old]

Still hoping that perhaps there's a member who's a DVD player tech, that can provide some additional hard info - especially since I can't believe I was just "lucky" to have 5 different brands/models of SAPs play my PAL-patched-to-NTSC DVDs properly...

[dat720]

mpeg decoder's is a hard one to cover, they change so often with new feature's faster processing and what not! maybe i'll crack open my Palsonic player tomorrow and do some research on its mpeg decoder!

[Wombler]

And your source for this statement is what?


I'd seen this (now rather extensive) thread at VideoHelp.com some time ago and remembered researching it back then.

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic221928.html

There was other stuff as well but I can't remember where exactly as this was a few years ago now.

Hopefully you'll find some interesting stuff in that thread though and in the other threads referred to in it.

TBH it was just a curiosity for me as I live in PAL land and it has no practical value for me here.

The technical aspects of it initially aroused my interest though.


Wombler

[blutach]

@dat720

The penny drops that you are also from PAL land and this is a big deal in respect of your players since almost all of them plays NTSC - well, sorta NTSC as you've explained.

A real good explanation of what goes on can of course be found by Taylor. See here (http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.19).

Regards

[setarip_old]

@Wombler

Thanks for directing me to that looooooooooooong thread - and alive for FOUR years! ;>}

Although there may be some responses in there that accurately state that the particular SAP just won't playback such a disc, there's nothing really definitive, in the negative sense.

I say this because (as I noted, as well, in an earlier post in this thread) as one poster to that thread stated, the instructions omitted the VERY IMPORTANT changing of the Region Code.

Additionally (also, as I noted, as well, in an earlier post in this thread, regarding "Menu Attributes"), another poster indicated the necessity of changing ALL format/resolution references from PAL 720x576 to NTSC 720x480 in ALL .IFOs.

There are actually several instances in that thread where posters initially posted, "It doesn't work for me" - and then subsequently posted, "Oops, now that I did thus and such, it works!"

Add to this, that threadstarter's own speculation (on Page 3, or so of that thread) that other "failure" reasons are likely using poor quality media and/or burning at too fast a speed, and I tend to believe (although obviously, I cannot prove) that, if properly done, the failure rate might actually prove to be quite low.

That said, I'm still hoping that perhaps there's a member who's a DVD player tech, that can provide some additional hard info...

[manono]

Add to this, that threadstarter's own speculation (on Page 3, or so of that thread) that other "failure" reasons are likely using poor quality media and/or burning at too fast a speed, and I tend to believe (although obviously, I cannot prove) that, if properly done, the failure rate might actually prove to be quite low.
As you may not know, the threadstarter (DJ Rumpy) later disavowed his own method:
I have to agree with the others. I initiallly put the patch version on here years ago due to constant requests from beginners on how it was done. I've regretted ever since...lol, since from the point that I posted it, I somehow 'owned' that process. I didn't invent the patch method, and I don't use it myself for obvious reasons (obvious to any of the old timers on here anyway
http://forum.videohelp.com/topic319127.html#1673672

And I would suspect something entirely different from yourself; that those for whom it fails would report back in far fewer numbers than those for whom it works, perhaps out of embarrassment for having ever believed such a silly method could work, and the actual failure percentage is much higher than that thread would seem to indicate. In addition, for many more there's only partial success. One of the biggest gripes is that, although the video might play properly, the menus get messed up, with buttons out of alignment and other problems.

Also, this is Doom9 and not Videohelp.com. Here we pride ourselves on doing quality work and not relying on cheap hacks to make things easy on ourselves. If you aren't willing to buy a decent player that can do the conversion, then do a proper conversion yourself.

[setarip_old]

@manono

Hi!

1) Apparently you overlooked the fact that my evaluation of the thread at "Videohelp" was done specifically in response to "Wombler" referring to it as his/her source of information about this "quick patch" methodology.

2) Your reference to the "embarrassment for having ever believed such a silly method could work" is flawed - in that I have used it and it works for me (and others, according to the postings in that "Videohelp" thread).

3) You are 100% correct in your statement that, "Here we pride ourselves on doing quality work". However, the rest of your statement about, "not relying on cheap hacks to make things easy on ourselves" is, at the very least, inaccurate and attempts to create the illusion that Doom9 members neither seek nor create simpler ways to accomplish complex tasks. On the contrary, as you know, the Doom9 Forums are filled with transparency-to-the-user GUIs and automated conversion/compression programs - as well as loads of activity regarding decrypting/ripping programs that don't require the detailed knowledge of PGCEdit, IFOEdit etal. I'd suggest that the fact that just because someone created a program or devised a methodology making a task easier to accomplish doesn't make it a "cheap hack". Even in the instance of this "quick patch" methodology, someone (and it was apparently someone prior to "DJ Rumpy") had to come up with the methodology - and I commend that person for doing so.

4) Lastly, you also state (presumably intended for me), "If you aren't willing to buy a decent player that can do the conversion, then do a proper conversion yourself." As far as I know, in the U.S. (where I reside) there are no legitimate sources for multi-region SAPs with conversion capability. (Besides, that would eliminate the fun of even doing this little bit of "quick patch" tinkering with the .IFOs.) As far as doing "a proper conversion" myself, I am well aware of where to find the information for performing a lengthy and "deep" conversion (which may or may not ultimately include the original menu/s, extras, etc.). However, I've only had one occasion that necessitated a PAL to NTSC conversion, used this "quick patch" methodology and obtained excellent results.

As I've mentioned previously in this thread, I'm still hoping that a member with professional technical knowledge of SAPs will post to this thread and explain how/why this "quick patch" method works (at least sometimes).

[Wombler]

@manono

Absolutely and I agree with that entirely (particularly the last paragraph).

This is a cheap and unreliable hack that in my view is an unacceptable solution which causes more problems than it will ever solve.

It might be interesting as a technical curiosity but I'd strongly advise anyone to disregard the 'patch' method as any sort of purported solution.


Wombler

[Wombler]

Lastly, you also state (presumably intended for me), "If you aren't willing to buy a decent player that can do the conversion, then do a proper conversion yourself." As far as I know, in the U.S. (where I reside) there are no legitimate sources for multi-region SAPs with conversion capability.

The Philips player I mentioned in post #19 is available from Amazon.com for $50 (which BTW I'm not necessarily recommending but just cited as an example) and it didn't take me long to find.

I've seen loads of comments from Americans that have such players so I think it's fairly safe to assume that they're readily available if you know where to look.


Wombler

[Inventive Software]

Philips players I can recommend, especially the DVP3120. Bought from Tescos, plays Region 2 fine (obviously, it being bought in the UK), and after looking online, the region-free remote code was dead easy to enter, and it now also plays Region 1 DVDs without a hitch. Not bad for £20. :)

[manono]

Hi-
1) Apparently you overlooked the fact that my evaluation of the thread at "Videohelp" was done specifically in response to "Wombler" referring to it as his/her source of information about this "quick patch" methodology.
I don't think I overlooked that fact. In any event, you didn't waste any time using that thread to bolster your own arguments in favor of this method.
2) Your reference to the "embarrassment for having ever believed such a silly method could work" is flawed - in that I have used it and it works for me (and others, according to the postings in that "Videohelp" thread).
More power to you, but I was clearly referring to the people for whom the patch didn't work, and who were too embarrassed to admit they had even tried it. Both of us, though, are making opposite arguments (me thinking the failure rate is higher than reported; you thinking it's lower) without any real basis in fact.
3)...On the contrary, as you know, the Doom9 Forums are filled with transparency-to-the-user GUIs and automated conversion/compression programs - as well as loads of activity regarding decrypting/ripping programs that don't require the detailed knowledge of PGCEdit, IFOEdit etal.

Who would know better than I, as I even help moderate a forum for a couple of all-in-one programs (the GKnot/AutoGK Forum)? But there's a difference between a well designed front end for a number of equally well designed sub-programs, and a piece of junk, such as, for example, WinAVI or much of the Nero garbage. No, I wasn't arguing for doing the work the most labor-intensive way possible.
4) Lastly, you also state (presumably intended for me), "If you aren't willing to buy a decent player that can do the conversion, then do a proper conversion yourself."
And for that remark I apologize. It wasn't intended for you, and should, perhaps, have been worded something like, "If one isn't willing to buy a decent player that can do the conversion, one should do a proper software conversion." Since, apparently, your players play the output from using the patch method with no problems at all, then I guess you don't need to learn how to do it right.
As far as I know, in the U.S. (where I reside) there are no legitimate sources for multi-region SAPs with conversion capability.
Is that some kind of a trick question? If it does the conversion, does that somehow make it illegitimate? There are a ton of them. I'm also in the US. I've owned 2 Oppo players and Oppos do the best conversions in the business. And as mentioned, the Philips players do it. And most cheapo Chinese players do it, with varying degrees of quality.

[dat720]

@dat720

The penny drops that you are also from PAL land and this is a big deal in respect of your players since almost all of them plays NTSC - well, sorta NTSC as you've explained.

A real good explanation of what goes on can of course be found by Taylor. See here (http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.19).

Regards

Back in the early day's when i first got a DVD Player content was pretty limited here (Australia getting screwed again!!!), i did allot of ordering off Amazon, and while the movies worked for me in my little Palsonic, when i lent them out they often did not work for others.

Love that link... never seen it before, it's chockers with good information!

[bourke]

Back in the early day's when i first got a DVD Player content was pretty limited here (Australia getting screwed again!!!), i did allot of ordering off Amazon, and while the movies worked for me in my little Palsonic, when i lent them out they often did not work for others.

Love that link... never seen it before, it's chockers with good information!Whilst you seem to want to know more - the main technological difference between the two is how they transmit colour information. NTSC was based on the B&W fomat with colour information piggy-backed onto the B&W info - this was done to ensure that the NTSC colour signal was backwards compatible with all B&W TVs (they would just play the B&W signal component of the signal). This is why NTSC had no choice but to maintain the 60Hz/30fps frame rate the same as B&W.

However PAL was an entirely new format, optimized to allow for a far greater colour palette - which is why PAL video tends to look better than NTSC. It was realized that film is mostly shot at 24fps, and so there was much more advantage to had by devoting signal bandwidth to superior colour palette and higher screen resolution - rather than extra frames.

Note that Hollywood studios often devote a much larger effort and skill into mastering the NTSC releases though - so sometimes when the PAL DVD release is mastered poorly then the NTSC version can look superior.

[setarip_old]

As I've mentioned previously in this thread, I'm still hoping that a member with professional technical knowledge of SAPs will post to this thread and explain how/why this "quick patch" method works (at least sometimes).I guess we'll never know...

[dat720]

Thanks for the explanation there bourke, i had a pretty good handle on the history of PAL and NTSC, good post tho!