Wait! So what if HD DVD 'lost' the war, can't studios still use them?

[Undead Sega]

Yeah...! i mean, we all know that HD DVD is the better opposing Sony's Blu Ray Disc for many many reasons, but arrogantly studios dropped them with many following because of the fat support of Sony behind their backs.

even with Blu Ray at a high price, but slowly going down, and Toshiba stopped support, it doesnt mean that companies can't use it anymore right?

i mean, for a fact DVD is still a major retiler in the market and it wont die out any time very soon, to me personally, the whole DVD / HD DVD hybrid discs was probably the best idea they ever made! whent he war was still happening, a standalone HD DVD movie cost lower than a Blu Ray disc, but with the advent of the DVD / HD DVD hybrid discs which price wise is somewhat onpar with Blu Ray's prices at the time, i dont see it why it wasnt a winner! cause you have the choice of a HD DVD and the current DVD, which is an opputunity for consumers who wish to upgrade their home entertainment to HD, will have the chance to experience it immediantly with the DVD / HD DVD hybrid discs.

i could be wrong about studios still being able to use them, but if its not in support and is quite stable enough to already have it in the market, why cant they still use it?

[EPiPH0NE]

Yeah...! i mean, we all know that HD DVD is the better opposing Sony's Blu Ray Disc for many many reasons,

That's you're opinion, not mine. I liked both formats but lets face it do you really like having to remove embedded pulldown flags? I didn't think so. Sony actually had computer use in mind when designing the BluRay specs and I applaud them for that. Also, lets not forget Toshiba tried to buy there fair share of support for HD-DVD by giving Paramount and other studios a nice pay day for going 'exclusive'. Sony has more money hence why they 'won'.


even with Blu Ray at a high price, but slowly going down, and Toshiba stopped support, it doesnt mean that companies can't use it anymore right?

Why make discs for players that aren't being manufactured anymore? Should Sony still be making Betamax tapes?

i mean, for a fact DVD is still a major retiler in the market and it wont die out any time very soon
I agree with this. I still watch a lot of SD DVD's and even SD DVDRiPS but a pure 720p/1080p source looks much nicer on my 46" 1080p LCD then 480i upscaled -> 1080p. And I'm sorry but you can't beat HD audio.

to me personally, the whole DVD / HD DVD hybrid discs was probably the best idea they ever made!

I remember thread after thread on AVS about people having nothing but problems with these discs although my HP HD-DVD rom drive never had a problem ripping them.

[mpucoder]

Why make discs for players that aren't being manufactured anymore? Should Sony still be making Betamax tapes?

Bad example, the Betamax did not die the early death that so many people believe, it went prosumer and commercial. Sony is still making Betamax tapes. (http://b2b.sony.com/Solutions/product/L750BT) (and you can get them cheaper (http://store.vsastore.com/l750bt.html))

[EPiPH0NE]

Bad example, the Betamax did not die the early death that so many people believe, it went prosumer and commercial. Sony is still making Betamax tapes. (http://b2b.sony.com/Solutions/product/L750BT) (and you can get them cheaper (http://store.vsastore.com/l750bt.html))


LOL.........0WN3D

OK change Betamax -> Laser Disc then. I remember an old friend of mine who's dad worked for the Philadelphia Eagles back in '90 and they used Betamax and that was the last I saw of it. Then again I smoke A LOT of w33d :p

[Doom9]

Toshiba tried to buy there fair share of support for HD-DVD by giving Paramount and other studios a nice pay day for going 'exclusive'.So did Sony ;) (certainly Warner and Fox (adding BD+ costs money)).

Sure, studios could release all future DVDs as combo discs, but it costs more to manufacture and it costs more to author, plus they'd have to do a Blu-ray version anyway (being the only format left standing).. and since HD DVD players are no longer being sold, what you get in terms of market penetration isn't going to go up.. so essentially you add a HD DVD side to millions of DVDs and only a small fraction of the people buying that disc will be able to make use of the HD side - that's not money well spent (you'd piss off all the people who cannot use the HD side if you increase the price, so essentially you'd have to release the combo for the DVD price and thus accept a lower margin on 90+% of the movies you sell).

So, they can use it but it makes very little sense for studios to use combos at this time. The last HD DVD release has been released.. there won't be any more so if you want HD, Blu-ray is your only option now and I'd bet my sizeable HD DVD collection (100+ titles) that HD DVD stays dead.

[laserfan]

i could be wrong about studios still being able to use them, but if its not in support and is quite stable enough to already have it in the market, why cant they still use it?I don't think anyone has told, or *can tell*, studios not to use HD DVD. But...first, it's not the "studios" that make the discs, it's the mastering houses, and depending on investments they've made in software and training and etc. they may or may not want to master HD DVDs anymore. Then there's manufacturing--perhaps there are some mfrs who will retain the HD DVD setup capability and do small lots for a price.

But in the end, despite that the consumer base of HD DVD players is fairly large, NO ONE likes to develop & produce for a market that is fixed in size, or shrinking. And that is the case for HD DVD, like it or not.

There may be some small independents who will produce a few programs for HD DVD, but no major studio will ever bother with it again. We hobbyists at least have our nice collections of discs, and the ability to create HD DVDs for our players (from HDTV recordings for example) but that's it. It's done.

[lexor]

Why would studios use HD DVD? Blu-ray has same codecs and more features (from their stand point) and more space to put it on. The only real advantage for studios that HD DVD had is cheaper cost of manufacturing, but that never got translated to lower prices on media for consumers (I'm not talking about subsidizing players, I'm talking about market cost of media). So from consumer perspective the only difference is the extra DRM, which AnyDVD now takes care of.

So now that DRM is out of the picture (btw, which it never was for anything you personally author), we as consumers get the exact codecs and features HD DVD offered + more pace, all at the same price (on media, which is the only thing that counts long term). Why the hell would we or the studios want HD DVD? To gratify early adopters that got screwed? Well one side was bound to get screwed, everyone knew it going in, no use crying now.

[EPiPH0NE]

So did Sony ;)

I know that, I was trying to brace for the argument of how Sony has bought all the studios off and that is true but if Toshiba had the money they would of bought off more studios as well and we would either still have an optical format war, one of MANY format wars to come, or HD-DVD would of been the format of so called 'choice'. I am not a Sony/BluRay fanboy, I like both formats but BluRay won. BluRay is easier to author and it's easier to work with the ES streams. These are facts.

[Inventive Software]

Why would studios use HD DVD? Blu-ray has same codecs and more features (from their stand point) and more space to put it on. The only real advantage for studios that HD DVD had is cheaper cost of manufacturing, but that never got translated to lower prices on media for consumers (I'm not talking about subsidizing players, I'm talking about market cost of media). So from consumer perspective the only difference is the extra DRM, which AnyDVD now takes care of.

So now that DRM is out of the picture (btw, which it never was for anything you personally author), we as consumers get the exact codecs and features HD DVD offered + more pace, all at the same price (on media, which is the only thing that counts long term). Why the hell would we or the studios want HD DVD? To gratify early adopters that got screwed? Well one side was bound to get screwed, everyone knew it going in, no use crying now.

In terms of the interactivity, I think HDi was marketed as being easier to work with than whatever Sony uses. BTW, as soon as Toshiba pulled out of the format war, Blu-Ray movie prices went up because they previously they were being sold at anywhere between 25% and 75% below their RRP to keep up with HD-DVD, which had far lower production costs; the RRP went up about 25% on Blu-Ray discs anyway because Sony couldn't afford to subsidise production of the discs. The only thing to stay reasonably constant was the R and RE discs, which is a bit baffling.

[lexor]

In terms of the interactivity, I think HDi was marketed as being easier to work with than whatever Sony uses.
And we care why? We don't use that directly, people who author movies and studios don't use that we all use third party software to do that (those of us with access). Only people who write software for people who author discs care about this difficulty (if it exists), and their products are a one time investment.

BTW, as soon as Toshiba pulled out of the format war, Blu-Ray movie prices went up because they previously they were being sold at anywhere between 25% and 75% below their RRP to keep up with HD-DVD, which had far lower production costs; the RRP went up about 25% on Blu-Ray discs anyway because Sony couldn't afford to subsidise production of the discs. The only thing to stay reasonably constant was the R and RE discs, which is a bit baffling.

Bullshit, prices on movies didn't change one bit in any of the stores here. They are as high as they ever been on both formats. And no one subsidized discs, biggies subsidized players. Discs are cheap enough in high volumes not to need subsidies, it's the royalties and arbitrary profit margins that studios put on them that give them the high price.

[EPiPH0NE]

Bullshit, prices on movies didn't change one bit in any of the stores here. They are as high as they ever been on both formats. And no one subsidized discs, biggies subsidized players. Discs are cheap enough in high volumes not to need subsidies, it's the royalties and arbitrary profit margins that studios put on them that give them the high price.

Yup, disc and player prices pretty much stayed the same, too high for me, at least, in my neck of the woods. It seems refurbished prices might have gone up a bit though and burner prices have come down. I could be wrong. I'll just have to keep sticking with Netflix, Usenet, and my NMT for now.

[Undead Sega]

also i forgot to mention, since it is no longer supported, and if they were wtill to use them, would they still have to pay royalties to Toshiba for a declined product? Of course royalties would still have to be paid for using MPEG4/H.264 but is that about it?

and i still believe they can use them, even thought it dead, people talking about disc space in comparision between these obviously dont know anything, because there already developments for a 50GB disc that was made by Ritek which (claims) that both HD DVD and Blu Ray can use (obviously!) also HD DVD was region free, people have forgotten that. and im glad someone mentioned the Manufacturing costs, because it is certainly alot cheaper, its both wins, one side that the authoring companies wont have to spend alot, and the other when being sold at a certain price in comparision to Blu Ray, they can still make money.

Suprising how Toshiba gave out a better effiencent codec to the consumer for such a lower price when having to pay mroe for royalties unlike Sony who dont want to pay a a bigger amount and still sell their Blu Ray discs at a higher price.

[Doom9]

Just because Toshiba no longer manufactures it doesn't mean applicable patents have run out. So, unless you get a waiver from the patent holder, you'd still be liable for licensing fees.

And, I'm the first to point out all the flaws in the Blu camp's arguments, but at this point it really is a moot issue. Blu-ray won, despite everything that spoke against it, and that's a reality we need to deal with. The last HD DVD has been released and there won't be any more. The last player has long since been manufactured and there won't be any more. Even makers of combo devices has stopped making them (or will shortly as new devices have come or will come out that no longer support HD DVD) so once existing devices break, that's it folks. Your best move is to learn how to convert HD DVDs and have them converted before your last drive fails.

[cdanddvdpublisher]

Just because Toshiba no longer manufactures it doesn't mean applicable patents have run out. So, unless you get a waiver from the patent holder, you'd still be liable for licensing fees..

Exactly - doesn't matter whether they're using the patent or not, it's still there...

[Blue_MiSfit]

Yup. I look at my xbox360 HD-DVD drive with a sad face every day... It's not even plugged in these days... I got a BD-ROM drive for like $150, and it works great for watching netflix and ripping my owned collection. After learning how to process BluRay, there's really no difference between the two formats - file structure and DRM set aside. I still get 264/m2v/vc1 files and audio tracks on my rip drive after eac3to works its magic :) Subtitles are still rather horrific - but that will change soon enough.

~MiSfit

[Mug Funky]

it's possible HD-DVD might see another life as a distribution format for more modest types of HD content (corporate stuff for showing in lobbies, etc).

i think with HD v BD it's hard to say the better man won. politics won, and sony played better.

however, BD as it stands now is very suspect as far as being anti-competitive. word in the BD authoring world is the only capable player out there is the ps3. all the others fail at BD-J, and completely fall over with BD+.

on the manufacturing side, replicators need to buy more gear rather than upgrade their old gear (which has subtle implications for regular DVD quality, which would be much better under HD-DVD tolerances), and i can only speculate as to what sort of licensing is involved in getting this new gear running - basically sony controls the market end to end, and that's never a good thing.

that said, on paper it is the better format.

[EPiPH0NE]

it's possible HD-DVD might see another life as a distribution format for more modest types of HD content (corporate stuff for showing in lobbies, etc).

Possible but they would already have to have the equipment to play the discs which are no longer being maunfactured

i think with HD v BD it's hard to say the better man won. politics won, and sony played better.

As I said earlier in the thread, money won. Sony has more.

however, BD as it stands now is very suspect as far as being anti-competitive. word in the BD authoring world is the only capable player out there is the ps3. all the others fail at BD-J, and completely fall over with BD+.

This all depends on the end users equipment. While most BluRay player sales numbers do revolve around the PS3 there is a very fast growing number of people playing these discs/files on HTPC's and newer stand alone media players and when coupled with AnyDVD HD have zero or minimal problems with the movies. Of course this is coming from some one who has zero interest in BD-Live, Bonus View, or any extras on the disc. Joe Sixpack might differ.
on the manufacturing side, replicators need to buy more gear rather than upgrade their old gear (which has subtle implications for regular DVD quality, which would be much better under HD-DVD tolerances)


Last I heard most major studios where using dual BluRay/HD-DVD manufacturing lines or at least the ones that where releasing on both formats and there haven't been any wide spread reports of degrading DVD quality while those machines have been in use so I don't see why there would be problems now. Most who where dual format before will probably just keep the dual line machines and continue to use them for BluRay and keep on using there existing DVD equipment aswell. There isn't much difference between the manufacturing of BluRay and HD-DVD with exception of the protective coating that is applied to BluRay unless something drastically changed in the last 2 years. I could be completely wrong, I'm just a stupid stoner :p

[Mug Funky]

This all depends on the end users equipment. While most BluRay player sales numbers do revolve around the PS3 there is a very fast growing number of people playing these discs/files on HTPC's and newer stand alone media players and when coupled with AnyDVD HD have zero or minimal problems with the movies. Of course this is coming from some one who has zero interest in BD-Live, Bonus View, or any extras on the disc. Joe Sixpack might differ.

call me joe sixpack, but even in the HTPC world the ps3 is a hell of a contender. i've just bought a very big TV (mainly to annoy my boss), and am in the market for a playback solution for it. after asking around, my options are a standalone blu-ray player, ps3 or a HTPC. standalone blu-ray players can't even handle blu-ray discs, so they're out of the question (and they cost way too much), a custom made HTPC might be fine for a geek like me, but what if i have friends over? what about my housemates? i haven't looked into it i admit, but "ease of use" can be a very relative term, and should be approched with caution when looking at opensource (where a beginner's guide to linux will frequently say "recompile the kernel").

now i'll probably not be ripping my discs for a while (until i get a burner i guess), so i'll be playing originals mainly, like i do with DVDs. this means decryption is not a huge need, and if it comes up i have a computer to do that on. one thing i'd like is to be able to play mp4 stuff off a hard disk in high-def - if only to watch stuff i've worked on in a more domestic environment. from what i can tell a ps3 is quite capable of this.

so out of my original 3 options, one is not adequate for BD, let alone any other media, one is too fiddly and in the end probably more expensive, and one is a ps3 which can play games as well. this is what i mean by anticompetitive - a company which makes a format that only its player can handle, and a specification that is weak enough that compliant discs can somehow not play on all but one compliant player.

[EPiPH0NE]

this means decryption is not a huge need, and if it comes up i have a computer to do that on.


If this is the case, meaning you have a BD-ROM drive, or axxs to one, or some way of accessing the data on the disc, then your cheapest solution would be to buy an NMT based media player/extender. Rip the discs: BluRay -> TS/M2TS, HD-DVD -> TS plus do DTS-MA/TrueHD -> PCM (if necessary) (some newer, more expensive NMT's will have HDMI 1.3/HD audio support but the older ones mostly have HDMI 1.1(mine has this)) after that it just get more and more expensive but I'm cheap so what can I say. Not much more now...I'm late for T0k3-4-Vi$0N :devil:

[Doom9]

@mugfunky: Are discs reasonably priced down under? You are after all in the same region as I and discs around here are way overprized.. meaning Amazon is the only choice and since the PS3 is not regionfree you need to get an R1 PS3 to play those discs for Amazon.
The lack of reasonable standalones along plus the lack of regionfree on almost all players have stopped Blu-ray from making it into my living room - even though my collection is poised to surpass my HD DVD one once all my pre-orders have come in.