Console native 480p output

[Seraphic-]

Would like some help on this issue.

I do really think that when the PS2/PS3 is outputting 480p that the output is 640x480 and NOT 720x480.
This is because if you look at the first image (640x480) and then the next (720x480), the 720x480 one looks "fat".
The image below is 480p 16:9 (852x480) and this looks more like the 640x480 then the 720x480.

Also, if you crop the 720x480 video to the "visible" area, it works out to 638x448, which is almost 640x480 and 4:3. However, again, the 720x480 image does look too "fat".

If I am correct, 480p video needs to be re-sized from 720x480 to 640x480 and then cropped.

Can anyone confirm?

http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/640.png
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/720.png
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/852.png

[Pope Flick]

Here's what I can contribute: I pulled the first two pictures onto my computer and opened them in the latest photoshop. Both pics have square pixels, howver, if I change the 720 png to NTSC picxels it is indistinguishable from the first one. In fact, it's an exact copy.

But I think the 720 png is the correct one: look at the circle in the center. It's only truly round in the middle pic, it is oval in the top and bottom ones. If I were a betting man, and I've been known to be, then they designed that as a circle, and not a slight/mild oval.

That's my 2 cents.

[Pope Flick]

Also - is this PAL or NTSC? I ask because if I set the 640 png to PAL, it looks closer to the 720 but isn't exact, like 720 to NTSC is.

[easy2Bcheesy]

The HDMI output of the PS3 in PS2 mode is standard 720x480, or 720x576 in PAL mode. I can't imagine that they'd reformat the video image for the component output. PS2 framebuffer is usually 640x448.

So image2 is the correct one, it just needs to be cropped.

[Seraphic-]

This is NTSC and done with a PS2 game on a PS3 in 480p.
I'm going to try the same test using the same game on a PS2 in 480p mode later.

Just to be clear, image one and two were from the same 720x480 capture when the game was set to 4:3 mode. Just image one is resized down to 640x480 and the second was unchanged at 720x480. The 852x480 was done with the game set to 16:9 and captured at 720x480 and resized to 852x480.

Yes, both the 640x480 image and the 852x480 image's circle in the center does appear like an oval. But maybe that is how it is supposed to look? I mean, why would the 16:9 anamorphic one also appear as an oval when it is resized to 852x480 (one less then 853x480)? Should it be resized so that the "visible" area is 852x480?

While searching google I found a forum topic (below) where a user says that "for a DVD the PS2 outputs a 720x480 signal. Games output at 640x480.".
Post #8 - http://www.hdtvarcade.com/hdtvforum/index.php?showtopic=9954

I'm asking this because I don't want to be going about this the wrong way as I'll be make a lot of 480p videos.
Just not sure if the base before cropping should be 720x480 or 640x480 when set to 4:3 mode.

[Pope Flick]

Yes, both the 640x480 image and the 852x480 image's circle in the center does appear like an oval. But maybe that is how it is supposed to look? I mean, why would the 16:9 anamorphic one also appear as an oval when it is resized to 852x480 (one less then 853x480)? Should it be resized so that the "visible" area is 852x480?

While searching google I found a forum topic (below) where a user says that "for a DVD the PS2 outputs a 720x480 signal. Games output at 640x480.".
Post #8 - http://www.hdtvarcade.com/hdtvforum/index.php?showtopic=9954

I'm asking this because I don't want to be going about this the wrong way as I'll be make a lot of 480p videos.
Just not sure if the base before cropping should be 720x480 or 640x480 when set to 4:3 mode.


I don't have time to answer the first part, although I'll take a crack later, but you just provided part of the answer in the second part - the quote from that link.

If I crop out the black on the left and right of the 720 png, but leave the horizontal black in place the image becomes 640x480. So there's a SLIGHT letterbox to the image, the true game image includes the horizontal black bars.

This stuff is tricky, and I'm still inclined to believe that the image SHOULD be circular in the middle. Have you gone to their website to look for possible screens by the developers from this same level/area?

[squid_80]

If the game is set to 4:3, then of course 640x480 is going to look more correct the 720x480 - 640:480 = 4:3. But if it's progressive, I think you'd be better off resizing the 720x480 image to 720x540 (or 544 if you need mod 16) so you're not losing any detail.

The width of an analog signal isn't a definite number of pixels (even though 720 is commonly used), the number of pixels used for the horizontal resolution will affect the pixel aspect ratio of the capture.

[Dot50Cal]

Regardless of the capture, you should just crop all black bars (obviously account for cinemas which add them and such) and resize the actual pixels to its closest 4:3 equivalent.

[Seraphic-]

Looking below images, the 4:3 and 16:9 720p upscale images match the 640x480 downsized and 852x480 upsized images.

Now I don't know what to think because if you crop the 720x480 video to the "visible" pixels, it works out to 640x448, which is almost 640x480 and 4:3. However, they don't match the other images.

Here are some more samples:

Playstation 2 480p
(640x480 4:3 top - 720x480 4:3 middle - 852x480 16:9 bottom)
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/ps2640.png
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/ps2720.png
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/ps2852.png

Playstation 3 720p Upscale
(4:3 top - 16:9 bottom)
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/43720.png
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/169720.png

[Dot50Cal]

Like I said, it doesn't really matter with old games like that. I cant recall any pre-ps2 era games supporting widescreen. If you are really unsure, play the game on your SDTV. See if there are any bars at all. If there aren't, then its reasonable to assume that its a 4:3 game. So crop all the bars, and resize it to a 4:3 width. Since the height would be 448, 597 would be your equivalent width.

Lots of old games ran at wonky resolutions. Stuff like 512x480, or other weird resolutions. Since its difficult to recognize this, the general rule is to just crop the bars (but take note if the bars appear in the game itself and adjust for that) and then resize it to its 4:3 equivalent.

[Seraphic-]

Like I said, it doesn't really matter with old games like that. I cant recall any pre-ps2 era games supporting widescreen. If you are really unsure, play the game on your SDTV. See if there are any bars at all. If there aren't, then its reasonable to assume that its a 4:3 game. So crop all the bars, and resize it to a 4:3 width. Since the height would be 448, 597 would be your equivalent width.

Lots of old games ran at wonky resolutions. Stuff like 512x480, or other weird resolutions. Since its difficult to recognize this, the general rule is to just crop the bars (but take note if the bars appear in the game itself and adjust for that) and then resize it to its 4:3 equivalent.

In this case, this is a PS2 game with 480p output support at 4:3 or 16:9 mode.
In 16:9 it is anamorphic wide-screen. You can this because if you look at the 480p/720p images, the 16:9 one is much wider and shows two extra columns.

You are right though, some games did have odd resolutions.
I think most PS1 games ran at 320x240i and others 640x240i.

My HD Monitor only supports 720x480 for 480p, but I try the game on my old SD TV and with composite 4:3 and see if it is a circle or oval. (just got to remember where I stuck the SD cables)

[Dot50Cal]

Sorry, I should have clarified. Some games are rendered in lower/odd resolutions. They are then stretched to match 4:3 standards. But yeah, you got the gist of it ;). Every capture card I've ever owned has been 720x480. I believe capture cards simply take the full signal from the source rather than cropping like televisions do. So you have to do this yourself.

[Seraphic-]

Sorry, I should have clarified. Some games are rendered in lower/odd resolutions. They are then stretched to match 4:3 standards. But yeah, you got the gist of it ;). Every capture card I've ever owned has been 720x480. I believe capture cards simply take the full signal from the source rather than cropping like televisions do. So you have to do this yourself.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Like how most PS3/Xbox360 games render at 1280x1080 or 1440x1080 and then upscale to 1080p so they can still put 1080p on the box.

Anyway, here is how the game looks on a SD TV when using 480i over composite and the game set to 4:3 mode.
Below that image is the the same SD TV when using 480i over composite, just with the game set to 16:9 mode.
There is that oval again. :confused:

Note: The black border on all four sides is from the TV, not the game, just how it displays as I try to show in the last image.

http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/SD43.JPG
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/SD169.JPG

http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/SDW.JPG

[Dot50Cal]

When you set most older games on PS2 to 16:9, they simply stretch the height to fit the entire screen, expecting the TV to be a 16:9 aspect ratio. This is why you get a very stretched signal when playing on a 4:3 tv. Looks like 597x448 is your res to go with in 4:3 mode ;)

[Seraphic-]

When you set most older games on PS2 to 16:9, they simply stretch the height to fit the entire screen, expecting the TV to be a 16:9 aspect ratio. This is why you get a very stretched signal when playing on a 4:3 tv. Looks like 597x448 is your res to go with in 4:3 mode ;)

This game is a 2006 PS2 game, so it is one of the newer ones so the 16:9 mode is Anamorphic.

What 4:3 image are you talking about resizing after cropping? The 640x480 or the 720x480?

I just find it odd that the PS3 hardware upscale to 720p 4:3 looks just like the PS2 480p 4:3 image. As does the 16:9 image and even the SD TV in 4:3. They all have an oval and not a circle.

[Seraphic-]

I e-mailed the game developer, not sure if I'll get a reply, but worth a try.

Anyway, I think I found the answer to my question.
Setting the game to 4:3 and the hardware upscaler to 16:9 gives a circle an not an oval.
That tells me that it meant to be an oval and the 720x480 (before crop) is wrong and is stretching the 4:3 image.
So the capture done at 4:3 mode 720x480 needs to be downsized to 640x480 and then cropped.
An the 16:9 mode 720x480 needs to be upsized to 852x480 and then cropped.

Edit:

I just watched some of the promotional trailers for the game one is 640x480 with the full visible pixels as 640x480. So does that mean they resized up to 640x480 from 638x448 or 596x448? Or maybe they were resized for in post production? In another trailer that is 400x300, it has borders like my screen caps so who the hell knows!

This is total BS, wasting all this time trying to find out the correct resolution for 480p 4:3/16:9. :mad:

[Pope Flick]

I e-mailed the game developer, not sure if I'll get a reply, but worth a try.

Anyway, I think I found the answer to my question.
Setting the game to 4:3 and the hardware upscaler to 16:9 gives a circle an not an oval.
That tells me that it meant to be an oval and the 720x480 (before crop) is wrong and is stretching the 4:3 image.
So the capture done at 4:3 mode 720x480 needs to be downsized to 640x480 and then cropped.
An the 16:9 mode 720x480 needs to be upsized to 852x480 and then cropped.

Edit:

I just watched some of the promotional trailers for the game one is 640x480 with the full visible pixels as 640x480. So does that mean they resized up to 640x480 from 638x448 or 596x448? Or maybe they were resized for in post production? In another trailer that is 400x300, it has borders like my screen caps so who the hell knows!

This is total BS, wasting all this time trying to find out the correct resolution for 480p 4:3/16:9. :mad:

Keep in mind you might not even be looking at PS2 footage in their trailers. Often times the PC version provides better graphics, especially if the PC version is a port of the PS2.

[Seraphic-]

The HDMI output of the PS3 in PS2 mode is standard 720x480, or 720x576 in PAL mode. I can't imagine that they'd reformat the video image for the component output. PS2 framebuffer is usually 640x448.

So image2 is the correct one, it just needs to be cropped.

Is 640×448 a 4:3 resolution? If so, how resolution is need for 16:9 mode? Because I upsized the 720x480 to 852x480, but it looks like the 640x480 image

Keep in mind you might not even be looking at PS2 footage in their trailers. Often times the PC version provides better graphics, especially if the PC version is a port of the PS2.

In this case, the game was developed for the PS2, so there is no other version.
Why can't it be as easy as the PSP 480p? I know for a fact that its output is 720x480 with 480x272 of visible game pixels after cropping.
As for the PS2 games I was looking to make, I'm sitting my hands not knowing what resolution to go with before cropping.

http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/640v.png
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/720v.png

[squid_80]

It's easy. You want your output to have square pixels, so resize before cropping.
- If it's meant to be 4:3, resize to a 4:3 resolution such as 640x480 or 720x540.
- If it's meant to be 16:9, resize to a 16:9 resolution.

Then crop away whatever you want, as long as your display device is using square pixels the aspect ratio will be correct.

[Seraphic-]

It's easy. You want your output to have square pixels, so resize before cropping.
- If it's meant to be 4:3, resize to a 4:3 resolution such as 640x480 or 720x540.
- If it's meant to be 16:9, resize to a 16:9 resolution.

Then crop away whatever you want, as long as your display device is using square pixels the aspect ratio will be correct.

But cropping the 720x480 gives 640x448 of visible pixels.
And according to easy2Bcheesy, that is the PS2 frame buffer.
Cropping the 640x480 gives 592x480.

[squid_80]

So? The PS2 framebuffer doesn't necessarily use square pixels (in fact I'm sure it doesn't).

[Seraphic-]

So? The PS2 framebuffer doesn't necessarily use square pixels (in fact I'm sure it doesn't).

True, but for the PSP 480p output is 720x480 with 480x272 of visible game pixels after cropping.

And if you look at these two images, you get an egg (640x480 crop) vs a circle (720x480 crop).
Stuff like this makes me unsure to go with 640x480 before cropping.

http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/640v.png
http://www.temp.seraphicgate.com/720v.png

[BlackSharkfr]

i've had exactly the same problem when capturing footage from my gamecube and my wii.
I'd take the opposite approach :
crop to visible pixels first, you should get that 638x448 image.
Then stretch the horizontal resolution until you get the proper aspect ratio. that is 796*448 (round it to 800*448) if you set the game to output 16:9 ratio, or 597*448 (round it to 600*448) if you set the game to output 4:3 ratio... and you should get the correct ratio.

The game doesn't seem to add black bars so you should ge the correct ratio.

[Seraphic-]

i've had exactly the same problem when capturing footage from my gamecube and my wii.
I'd take the opposite approach :
crop to visible pixels first, you should get that 638x448 image.
Then stretch the horizontal resolution until you get the proper aspect ratio. that is 796*448 (round it to 800*448) if you set the game to output 16:9 ratio, or 597*448 (round it to 600*448) if you set the game to output 4:3 ratio... and you should get the correct ratio.

The game doesn't seem to add black bars so you should ge the correct ratio.

The images I posted above have been cropped, page one has a lot of images with no cropping. 16:9 should be 853x480 or in this case 848x448 for mod16. And 4:3 works out to 592x448 vs 640x448 and oval vs circle.
On my SD TV it shows a oval but on my HD monitor I get a circle. So I'm not sure what to go with.

[BlackSharkfr]

considering you resize (and use square pixels).
852/488 is not 16:9
640/448 is not 4:3

so if you get correct proportions using these resolution means only one thing : the game doesn't use 16:9 or 4:3.
My guess is that the game adds black bars to the image in order to gain some cpu/gpu performance.

In this case there is absolutely no way to calculate the correct rolution. You have to try and guess.
Do you think this round objects are circles or ovals ? use the resolution you think is best, it's all up to you.
And if you need a specific ratio (for a flash web player), just re-add the black bars yourself with virtualdub.

[Seraphic-]

considering you resize (and use square pixels).
852/488 is not 16:9
640/448 is not 4:3

so if you get correct proportions using these resolution means only one thing : the game doesn't use 16:9 or 4:3.
My guess is that the game adds black bars to the image in order to gain some cpu/gpu performance.

In this case there is absolutely no way to calculate the correct rolution. You have to try and guess.
Do you think this round objects are circles or ovals ? use the resolution you think is best, it's all up to you.
And if you need a specific ratio (for a flash web player), just re-add the black bars yourself with virtualdub.

Well, the game has two display modes for 480p which is 4:3 and 16:9 modes. Cropping the the 720x480 capture gives 640x448, which easy2Bcheesy said was the PS2 framebuffer. It is not 480 because the game only uses 448. Cropping the 720x480 gives a circle in 4:3 mode, but resizing it to 852x448 (crop down to mod16) give an oval, so that means it has to go past 852x? I was thinking cropping it down to 638x448 in 16:9 and then resize to 848x448, but hat seems too much of a resize.

[easy2Bcheesy]

I'm struggling to see how something so simple is worthy of a two-page topic. Just crop to the pixels and use an anamorphic encoding profile. Regardless of whether it actually looks precisely right or not, that is precisely what your would screen be doing.

With regards a proper resize, by my calculations a mod16 compatible widescreen version of 640x448 is is 796x448. Not sure where you're getting 848/854 pixels from as that would be the correct size only if you are not doing an initial crop: (480/9)*16. In this case, because you are cropping it's (448/9)*16, and the closest mod16 result is 796px wide.

But as I said, resizing at all is entirely pointless when you can just use anamorphic pixels in the encoding profile and keep your video a basic 640x448/whatever.