player with rock stable EVR support ?

[leeperry]

hi there,

I love how Haali's Renderer is rock stable in any given situation.....but I also enjoy the way my videos look so 3D-ish with EVR :eek:

thing is I can't find any perfectly stable EVR implementation ?!
is it because the renderer itself isn't....or because of the custom presenters ?

with MPC HC and using the CTRL+J infos, if I start in "d3d fullscreen" it's not stable at all......oscillating between 23.9xx and 24.00x with Reclock in 48Hz.

in regular mode, it can stay spot on 24.000fps, but occasionally it drops frames for no reason.....and after 45/60/90 mins it might drop frames like CRAZY, requiring seeking :eek:

KMPlayer also supports EVR, but well......it also drops frames for no reason quite rarely....but a lot less than MPC HC anyhow, that's actually not that bad.

Zoom Player/BSPlayer don't use custom presenters for EVR, the picture is full of tearing(on XP or Vista with a HD2600)

anyone knows of a perfectly smooth EVR player around ?! :(

it seems that there's a new version of Theatertek bound to show up anytime soon that will support exclusive d3d mode with EVR.......might be my golden ticket :D

TIA,

[leeperry]

apparently BSPlayer also supports EVR.......lemme try :D

[TheShadowRunner]

with MPC HC and using the CTRL+J infos, if I start in "d3d fullscreen" it's not stable at all......oscillating between 23.9xx and 24.00x with Reclock in 48Hz.

Again, how can you possibly get any results with ReClock + EVR, when ReClock DOES NOT support EVR?

You have a special build or something?

When using ReClock + EVR, ReClock doesn't sync the video fps at all since it cannot even detect the video, so ReClock is totally useless!

Please enlighten me.
Later,

TSR

[leeperry]

well I've spoken to ogo, the coder of Reclock.

he's a very good friend of Casimir666 IRL.

he told me that MPC HC was taking over this problem with EVR.....you coud even disable the VSYNC correction in Reclock, MPC does that.

he even checked my Reclock logs, and said everything was fine....it's just MPC HC's EVR presenter that's not stable...not EVR/Reclock fault.

atm I'm using HR in KMPlayer and it works wonderfully....not a single dropped frame w/Reclock in 24fps@48Hz..

in the past when I was ignorant and still using 60Hz with HR, I saw some MAJOR improvement when using Reclock on top of it.

but well I just love how EVR looks so 3D, HR is very "flat" in comparison :(

[leeperry]

oh well BSPlayer is not using a custom presenter for EVR, so it's also giving tearing :eek:

my last hope is in TheaterTek, with a custom exclusive EVR full screen presenter.....new version supposed to be released any time soon :)

[CruNcher]

Ehm it sounds like you try to get stable EVR on XP but EVR was never designed in the first place for it so you better of with VMR-9 and it's exclusive Mode for tearing free playback, tough it's still very limited (usability wise) and no one yet wrote a nice working OSD system for it :)
The most advanced implementation of it still is inside Zoomplayer as it can dynamicly switch between Window and Exclusive Mode without the need to restart the Player, tough it also takes some seconds to rebuild the graph here.

[leeperry]

VMR9 looks too dark(even in RGB32HQ), don't like it.

well EVR w/o custom presenter also gives tearing on Vista with ATi cards.

I think what's required is an EVR presenter written by Haali :D

but that's never gonna happen, so I guess rock stable EVR(on any OS) is just a wild dream.....

[CruNcher]

tough tearing free playback as you want it on Vista needs a player that fully supports everything that includes also the Multimedia Sheduler and MPC-HC i think doesn't support that yet. I can't belive that tearing should be a problem even for the average user to get rid off on Vista according to the released microsoft documents when the player fully adheres to it.
Hmm i get absolutely tearing free playback here even with VMR-9 Windowed btw on XP without any use of reclock or such stuff with my Nvidia Card (Casino Royale 24p) 0 jitter with CoreAVC and also DXVA 1.0 Cyberlink, tough my system is ultra optimized for non DPC dropouts when playing back Video.


VMR9 looks too dark(even in RGB32HQ), don't like it.
hmm if you don't like it you can easily adjust it with the GFX card panel (at least for Nvidia it's very easy todo you can calibrate for whatever you like, also easily get rid of dark luminance lossy compression problems, tough you should calibrate both LCD and GFX card together for best viewing results off Hollywood stuff and go away from the Standard Video presets and more into a Film Setup range above 6k)

[leeperry]

well we don't use Reclock to fix tearing.

we use Reclock to avoid duplicated/dropped frames, mostly in 24fps in 24/48Hz.

works like a charm with HR in KMP

very laggy with EVR in MPC HC, a lot less with EVR in KMP.

you can't "see" it if you don't use Reclock in 24/48Hz.

I also have perfect DPC latency, and my displays are carefully calibrated with an Eye One sensor + Color.HCFR/ARGYLLCMS ;)

[noee]

I'm running JRiver's Media Center 12 for video playback using Reclock, EVR and CoreAVC. Very solid setup, I know for a fact that Reclock works with EVR, you can watch with and without and you will see the judder without. MC12 also supports HR, but it was just added and it's not quite done yet. I've given up on MPC-HC, I can never get a stable setup.

I'm running XPSP3, ATI HD2600XT and my monitor runs native at 1920x1080@24Hz.

[leeperry]

w00t, thanks for the tip buddy :eek:

lemme try :D

EDIT : I'm getting tearing with a HD2600 on XP SP2, and the 8.4 drivers.

which drivers do u run ? never got any tearing before ? :(

works fine with HR, but terrible tearing with EVR(even in 1920*1080 24Hz).....I guess this app doesn't use a custom presenter :(

wonder why it works fine for you, though ?!

[noee]

I'm also running the 8.4 drivers, but I don't use CCC. Yes, you are right, they are not using a custom presenter.

One thing, all of my MKVs are ripped SD material, so I have FFdshow raw processing for resizing to 1920x1080 and output as RGB32HQ with colorspace BT601. Smooth as silk here, no tearing. My CPU maxes out at around 35% (X2 5000+ @ 2970Mhz).

For my HD material (.M2TS - all of it is AVCHD from my camcorder), I am not using FFdshow for any processing, the filter graph is just CoreAVC -> EVR (or Haali). EVR is good here too, but it doesn't properly respect the DAR, but I can use MC12 to change the AR.

There is a thread on their board related to AR and ffDshow where some recent info is available.

[leeperry]

well if you know sum magic formula to avoid tearing on EVR w/o custom presenter.....by all means, enlighten me :D

I've got a 3.5Ghz C2D, it's plenty fast....+2 gigs and a Sapphire HD2600

non customized EVR always ends up w/ terrible tearing here....in any app, MPC HC / KMP / BSPlayer/ ZP / etc etc..

I've just tried w/o ffdshow, so only with CoreAVC....same story.

I'm highly doubtful that SP3 would be the answer but it's worth a shot(so is removing CCC with Driver Cleaner)......

[noee]

Well, now you've gotten me afraid to change anything... :D

I'm not sure where to even start. I loaded up CCC and checked the settings. Here is what I have set for my LG Panel:

"Attributes"
Enable GPU Scaling is checked
Use centered timings is selected
Alt DVI operational mode is checked

"Scaling Options"
The overscan slider is all the way to the right and the control is disabled
Use scaling values.... is checked

LCD Overdrive is turned off

I just checked a standard DVD, I'm using FFdshow for decoding and resizing and, of course, Reclock to sync the 23.976 to 24fps. All is very good in that mode too. Who needs HD with performance like this? :D

Could it be my panel? It's an LG 37" Full HD using the HDMI input. I have it set for "PC" mode, which essentially turns off processing in the panel and takes whatever the GPU sends to it (i've read on AVS). The "status" shows 1080P input.

What else can I check?

[leeperry]

ah you're my savior, it seems that checking "Use centered timings" fixed the glitch :eek:

OTOH, I was comparing EVR and HR again for the N-th time in KMPlayer, goddamnnnnnnn...HR is so smooth, it's simply mind blowing :)

I like EVR because it does some awesome sharpening to the picture, but it's also crushing the whites >80 IRE quite badly....

ok lemme run even more tests :D

[noee]

I observe exactly as you describe with HR vs. EVR. HR is very smooth but EVR definitely gives a more 3-D appearance, especially on SD material. I too notice the crushed whites on EVR but I can improve it a little with some calibration tweaks to my panel. HR is the only renderer so far that I can use for consistent high performance with my AVCHD files. I just hope the next release fixes those crazy lines when HR does the upscaling.

What kinds of files are you testing with? A mix of SD and HD material or all HD?

[leeperry]

ah crap, the tearing is back with regular EVR ?!

I only watch HD material with "unsharp masking" enabled in ffdshow, it increases the 3D look even further.

well how good is a 3D-like picture if it's STUTTTTTERRRIIIINNGGG :eek:

that's the question I've been asking myself for the past......days, weeks :D

[wozio]

OTOH, I was comparing EVR and HR again for the N-th time in KMPlayer, goddamnnnnnnn...HR is so smooth, it's simply mind blowing :)
EVR in windowed mode or in custom presenter? You must specify it since in windowed mode timings are internal EVR implementation but in CA mode are implemented in host application. So it is perfectly possible to make it the same smooth as in HR.

I like EVR because it does some awesome sharpening to the picture, but it's also crushing the whites >80 IRE quite badly....

Again EVR windowed or CA? Both sharpening and whites are totaly different things in these modes.

[leeperry]

well I've tried every flavor of EVR in many players.

now that you mention it, I'd say regular EVR is smoother than EVR C/A in most players.......but they don't come close to HR smoothness.

it's like the frames were not smooth in the first place, but HR forces them to be :eek:

I use unsharp masking in ffdshow set between 33 and 36......and it pretty much does the same as the EVR sharpening when it comes to 3D-like processing.

[wozio]

BTW you are using vista or xp?

Regarding sharpening. I think you mentioned that you use ATI. Current ATI drivers have by default enabled image postprocessing (edge and color enhancements and noise reduction), I think you should disable all of it if you want to have control how your picture looks like. Maybe this is your 3D like feeling in EVR. It is a matter of taste, If you enjoy it's OK but then this is not correct picture. HR doesn't use drivers video processing routines at all so it is less processed picture, more correct one (but at cost of loosing great deinterlacing of current graphic cards).

[leeperry]

I've got this all disabled of course, and I've applied Deus Ex's script.

I am well aware that HR is not seen as a video renderer to the system, but as a 3D app.

the sharpening/white crushing is part of EVR......if you look carefully even VMR9 does sharpening.

I've spoken many time to Casimir666 and ogo regarding the MPC HC + EVR + Reclock combination.

it's just that the sharpening of EVR gives a stunning 3D depth look...but HR caches frames in the graphic card RAM so the jitter is as low as can be :eek:

it's been witnessed by several other pp than me, ya know ;)

my main point of comparison is EVR + unsharp masking set to 33 Vs HR + unsharp@36.......the 3D depth is not as good but it doesn't crush the whites and it's SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTH :eek:

0.25 ms of jitter!!!

http://pix.nofrag.com/7/b/8/432d93b03c52255b21fd807d57f1f.png

[wozio]

OK I did some test regarding sharpening by renderers and I must say that you are wrong, at least on my machine (xp sp2, ati x1650 pro and 7.10 drivers).

I created some script in avisynth with ImageSource of:
http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/resize/source.jpg

(source was bmp but here jpegs). Then I compressed it in VirtualDub using huffyuv to source.avi (http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/resize/source.avi).

And then I opened MPC and did a screenshots at 1280x1024 using various renderers.

As you can see there is no sharpening at all in EVR windowed. Sharpening in VMR9 renderless mpc bicubic is done by pixel shader algorithm used in MPC not by VMR9 itself. In fact VMR9 and EVR windowed outputs are basically identical, it seems that both renderers use the same resize routines in drivers. Haali is too pixelated to be considered as an option when scaling.

Haali:
http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/resize/haali.jpg

EVR windowed:
http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/resize/evr_windowed.jpg

VMR9 windowed:
http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/resize/vmr9_windowed.jpg

VMR9 renderless bilinear:
http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/resize/vmr9_renderless_bilinear.jpg

VMR9 renderless mpc bicubic -1,00:
http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/resize/vmr9_renderless_mpc_bicubic_1.jpg

ffdshow 4 taps lanczos, no sharpening, hq rgb out:
http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/resize/ffdshow_lanczos_4taps_no_sharpen_hq_rgb_out.jpg

I don't see and whites crushing also. Also this ffdshow HQ RGB output seems to be very comparable to EVR or VRM9 conversion but with twice or more CPU load.

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

yeah yeah yeah, we're all crazy ya know :)

here's a proof that the whites are crushed.

this is with Color.HCFR and its own test patterns, with an Eye One Display 2 sensor on my HC3100 projector :

http://pix.nofrag.com/4/2/4/596d372ca660358d3834cfc75a7d5.png


this is with the test patterns DVD in MPC HC with EVR :

http://pix.nofrag.com/9/7/1/9b049b69a6184659be6ea8a105fb1.png

the gamma curves are slighlty crushed >80 IRE, and it shows in very bright scenes.

I'm not sure what EVR does to the picture ?!
I can tell you that VMR9 does sharpening for sure, because I saw it with my own eyes when comparing renderers, and the bicubic resizing of MPC wasn't taking place because I was sending from ffdshow in the native resolution of my display(1:1).

EVR adds edge enhancement to the picture, everything looks 3D to death

I can name you many ppl who found out the same, I'm not just a crazy loon on crack :D

I ran a compare again yesterday between HR and EVR in KMPlayer with the intro of starwars 2 in 1080p in 48.000Hz + Reclock in 24fps

HR is smooth as silk, but the picture is quite "flat".
EVR is clearly not as smooth, but every ship seems to literally fly out of the screen :eek:

I've got no idea what they do to the video and I know it doesn't show on screenshots(checked already), but if we could find out......maybe we could apply it to HR :eek:

your tests are nice, but there's a known bug in the HR upscaling routines with ATi cards ;)

[wozio]

here's a proof that the whites are crushed.
this is with Color.HCFR and its own test patterns, with an Eye One Display 2 sensor on my HC3100 projector :
this is with the test patterns DVD in MPC HC with EVR :
the gamma curves are slighlty crushed >80 IRE, and it shows in very bright scenes.
You compare what with what here? First one is in the exactly the same setup but with HR and second with EVR? Do you have any screenshots with bright scene when it is visible?

I can tell you that VMR9 does sharpening for sure, because I saw it with my own eyes when comparing renderers, and the bicubic resizing of MPC wasn't taking place because I was sending from ffdshow in the native resolution of my display(1:1).

There are two options:
1. MPC does filtering/scaling even when 1:1 picture is sent, then picture is sharpened in bicubic scaling routine. Picture is sharpened in MPC not in VMR9.
2. HR does filtering/scaling when it is not needed and effectivelly blurs picture. VMR9 then displays exact picture and HR blurs.

I will check it at home today what is the case.

I've got no idea what they do to the video and I know it doesn't show on screenshots(checked already), but if we could find out......maybe we could apply it to HR :eek:

your tests are nice, but there's a known bug in the HR upscaling routines with ATi cards ;)

Please... I did some test which even you may repeat at your machine, you in answer write opinion basing on something that is not visible on screenshots...

Regards
Piotr

[madshi]

EVR adds edge enhancement to the picture, everything looks 3D to death

[...]

I've got no idea what they do to the video and I know it doesn't show on screenshots(checked already)
Edge enhancement and sharpening usually do show up on screenshots. So if you can't see it on screenshots then it's probably neither edge enhancement nor sharpening. What else could it be? I've no idea. I kinda doubt there's a difference if you can't see it in screenshots! :eek: But what do I know?

@leeperry, these differences you're seeing, are they only there when content is scaled (e.g. SD -> HD)? Or are they also visible for you when no scaling is done anywhere (e.g. playing Blu-Ray content on a 1080p display)?

[leeperry]

@wozio :
the first graph is with the built-in test patterns of Color.HCFR, the second is with the test patterns DVD in MPC HC with EVR, as already said above.
you can see that gamma >80 IRE is very slightly decreased...which ends up with slightly more crushed whites.

I'm not talking about a huge decrease...

a friend of mine with a PLV-Z4 also told me the same thing, because he's got a very low gamma curve....and he was already on the edge of crushed whites...and EVR is not acceptable to him in HIS set up.

but well, you seem to talk to me like I was a retard on drugs, I find it quite amusing :D

@madshi :
my first thought was that EVR was smooth to death, which was increasing the 3D look.

then I thought it was doing unsharp masking :
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/unsharp-mask.htm

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/graphics/tut_unsharpmask_man-orig.jpghttp://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/graphics/tut_unsharpmask_man-final.jpghttp://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/graphics/tut_unsharpmask_man-usm.jpg

but after more thoughts, it seems to do "dynamic contrast" like the VP3 nvidia drivers....hence it doesn't show on screenshots, and gives a significant contrast increase.

but actually, I'm not sure anymore :(

well plain simple, figures figures figures....trust your own eyes :)

take this trailer for instance :

http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?sid=63868908&sdm=web&pt=rd

it's Kung Fu Panda 720p

the first scene looks flat with HR, and very deep with EVR :eek:

if you wanna increase this impression even further, set unsharp masking @33 in ffdshow(for ATi cards, I dunno with nvidia)

all the characters seems to have white lines around their edges, and it gives a stunning 3D look...they seem to pop out of the screen :eek:

how do they do that ?! I've got no clue :(

but many other ppl see the same things I do, I only use CRT screens and DarkChip3 DLP projectors in 24fps@48Hz with Reclock, carefully D65/2.2 calibrated.

I'm not sure whether that would be relevant on a crappy uncalibrated LCD screen with low contrast ratio in 60Hz :D

EVR gives a more 3D and sharper look than any other renderer, in any given situation :cool:

[leeperry]

maybe noee is also crazy ?
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1137463&postcount=16

and all my friends on HCFR as well ? :D

like Edward Norton said in Down in The Valley : "crazy ? I'm the only sane person around here" :D

[wozio]

@wozio :
the first graph is with the built-in test patterns of Color.HCFR, the second is with the test patterns DVD in MPC HC with EVR, as already said above.
you can see that gamma >80 IRE is very slightly decreased...which ends up with slightly more crushed whites.
In first case you measure chain software->graphic driver->graphic card->display and in second case you measure source->mpeg2 decoder->renderer->player software->driver->card->display. It is not possible to compare this directly, too many variables. It can be mpeg2 decoder, renderer software, anything responsible for this diff in results. For example for dvd encoding, simple pc->tv levels must be applied, and during playback it must be reversed in renderer or ffdshow. How it is possible that you know it is EVR/VMR9?

You should calibrate your system to some preferred renderer and then you will have proper results. That is why hfcr DVD was created, if you calibrate system for DVD/video watching then you calibrate using DVD.

but well, you seem to talk to me like I was a retard on drugs, I find it quite amusing :D
It's probably my english that I sound like that, I should not ;)

take this trailer for instance :

http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?sid=63868908&sdm=web&pt=rd

it's Kung Fu Panda 720p

the first scene looks flat with HR, and very deep with EVR :eek:

I'll compare it at home at various renderers, the you will have direct comparision.

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

well I've calibrated with the test DVD to see if EVR was giving different results over regular GDI patterns.

and it does....but that's very slight, and somewhat irrelevant in a controlled set up.

but if you were already on the edge of crushed whites like my friend with the Z4, then it would require a recalibration.

quite frankly, I'm AMAZED by how smooth HR is.

but then you got EVR and its stunning 3D look, that makes everything pop out of the screen :eek:

don't forget to enable unsharp making in ffdshow to get the full blown EVR experience.

it's way sharper, and way more contrasty......guaranteed :D

[wozio]

maybe noee is also crazy ?
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1137463&postcount=16

and all my friends on HCFR as well ? :D

I don't get you guys ;) Where is the problem?

If smooth motion is must for you then take HR and calibrate whole display chain for it. If it's not as sharp as you would prefer add some sharpening in ffdshow or even resize in ffdshow (since sharpening should be done after resizing not before) and you have your perfect playback.

Colors and brightness/contrast/gamma is something we can calibrate, but scaling/sharpening is quite difficult to do so it ends to be a matter of taste, what you prefer in your system.

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

well plain simple. EVR is much sharper, no matter what you do in ffdshow....reason why I thought/thinks it does some uber-wikkid dynamic unsharp masking :D

my main points of comparison are :

-EVR with unsharp masking set to 33 in ffdshow(might differ on non ATi cards)
-HR with USM set to 36

EVR is much sharper, and much more contrasty.

if you have any clue how to get the same look in HR, please enlighten us...by all means :D

and don't throw dozens of screenshots of KUNGFU PANDA at me, just trust your eyes :)

[wozio]

I'll try at home but at the same time I'm sure that I will get exactly the same results in HR and EVR when no scaling, I just smell it ;)

So to be sure about methodology: run posted by you clip in mpc in various renderers with scaling via ffdshow to match screen resolution. OK sure I can do this but I did this already few posts back posting bunch of pictures of great turkish view ;) just source will be different.

[leeperry]

well you know, I was comparing them again........using very deep scenes with lot of different plans, it's quite easy to spot the diference, even on my 19" CRT.

I mostly run my tests in 1280*768 with 720p videos, so there's no scaling.

but even on SD, it shows.

I don't know what it does, but /me like it A LOT :D

it seems to make very slight whitish lines around the edges of moving elements, and that makes them pop out of the screen.

take a lot of high quality HD movies/trailers, play them in 720/1080p and enjoy the ride.

using USM in ffdshow increases the 3D impression even further :eek:

again it doesn't show on static screenshots....and the bigger your display(I project on a 2 meters large screen), the more mind blowing it gets :D

[madshi]

it seems to make very slight whitish lines around the edges of moving elements
This is an artifact which many enthusiasts hate like the plague!! Please check out this page and let me know what you think:

http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm

[leeperry]

I'm well aware of what EE is ;)

I think EVR does unsharp masking + dynamic contrast like the VP3 nvidia drivers.

you be the judge ;)

[wozio]

Just to clarify: EVR does nothing by its own, every video picture processing is done in video card drivers.

[leeperry]

hehehe, I think it's pointless to argue with you.

it's obvious that EVR does "some" picture processing, either software or hardware.

but enjoy OVERLAY, TEH best renderer EVR <3

[Inventive Software]

FFS, EVR isn't officially supported on XP. It's a VISTA ONLY THING!

[leeperry]

untrue.

it's part of the official .net3 package, which includes the same build as the Vista RTM.

and it works perfectly on XP(which is not true of the newer builds of Vista SP1 beta/SP1 RTM, yes I've tried :D )

only issue is that it's not as smooth as HR......but that's also true on Vista FFS :D

[wozio]

OK I tried clip posted by your and sorry I can't confirm your opinions, only difference in 1:1 rendering (without scaling) from all renderers is basically identical regarding sharpness. There are some differences in colors and less in brightness/colors but NO IN SHARPNESS.

Only I can judge from what you write is that on newer ATI cards some processing is being done and you didn't disable it. But this should be possible to show on screenshots. Maybe you could capture the same frame on your setup and maybe we will see.

Here are screenshots: EVR widnowed (http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/renderers/evr_windowed.jpg) haali (http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/renderers/haali.jpg) VMR9 renderless bicubic (http://www.pwozniak.multimo.pl/renderers/vmr9_renderless_mpc_bicubic_1.jpg)

but enjoy OVERLAY, TEH best renderer EVR <3
Sorry I don't know what you mean, I use VMR9 renderless bicubic -1,00

Regards
Piotr

[madshi]

I'm well aware of what EE is ;)
So what you're seeing is not EE? Your description does sound exactly like EE, though, don't you agree? :)

On a quick check on my 3850 I didn't see any obvious differences between EVR and Haali Renderer. I've used CoreAVC and let ffdshow do the resizing to 1080p to keep things equal between the renderers.

@leeperry, have you made sure that the same decoder is used when comparing EVR and Haali? Also, have you run Deus Ex's script for all installed graphics card or just for the first graphics card found? On my PC there are several graphics card still in the registry (from older cards). Furthermore there are 2 entries in the registry for the correct card, one for each DVI port. I let the script run through for each and every registry key it found, just to be sure.

My honest opinion is that I find it unlikely that there are differences which do NOT show in screenshots. But I can't really say with 100% certainty...

[leeperry]

OK I tried clip posted by your and sorry I can't confirm your opinions, only difference in 1:1 rendering (without scaling) from all renderers is basically identical regarding sharpness. There are some differences in colors and less in brightness/colors but NO IN SHARPNESS.

told you, we're all crazy ;)

I think it's got more to do with dynamic contrast...which then increases the impression of sharpness.

many ppl have witnessed it, like noee here :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1137463&postcount=16

me :D

and several ppl on HCFR, using Sony AW15 projectors, DLP RPTV, etc etc

again, I've got all the CCC sharperning thingies disabled. and it doesn't occur with VMR/Overlay/etc.

I presume you were using 24/48Hz with Reclock/pstrip on a well D65 calibrated high contrast display ? :D

and VMR9 is too dark anyway, really don't like it.

So what you're seeing is not EE? Your description does sound exactly like EE, though, don't you agree? :)

On a quick check on my 3850 I didn't see any obvious differences between EVR and Haali Renderer. I've used CoreAVC and let ffdshow do the resizing to 1080p to keep things equal between the renderers.

@leeperry, have you made sure that the same decoder is used when comparing EVR and Haali? Also, have you run Deus Ex's script for all installed graphics card or just for the first graphics card found? On my PC there are several graphics card still in the registry (from older cards). Furthermore there are 2 entries in the registry for the correct card, one for each DVI port. I let the script run through for each and every registry key it found, just to be sure.

My honest opinion is that I find it unlikely that there are differences which do NOT show in screenshots. But I can't really say with 100% certainty...

yes, I'm using ffdshow to decode x264 in any case.

yes, the Deus Ex script has been applied to the right registry entries.

well I believe EVR does voodoo magic, that's a good start for finding a rational explanation as to why EVR looks so 3D-ish :D

I can easily tell whether I'm using EVR or any other renderer.

for scenes with a lot of background elements, in EVR they seem to be way behind the front elements.

on my 2 meters wide projection screen, it's like the picture was 2 meters deep....quite scary actually :D

and when you go back to HR, it looks flat and blurry.....and VMR9 looks flat, blurry and too dark :eek:

[leeperry]

anyhow, to get back on topic.

KMPlayer is using a customized EVR presenter and it works quite well with Reclock on XP, not as smooth as HR.....but way better than MPC HC.........which tends to drop frames randomly, and completely lose A/V sync after 45/60 mins.

it's been witnessed by many ppl as well, like noee :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1137396&postcount=10

and several other friends on HCFR.

Casimir666 is well aware of the problem, but he's too busy working on DXVA :D

[wozio]

well I believe EVR does voodoo magic, that's a good start for finding a rational explanation as to why EVR looks so 3D-ish :D

And this is everything we need to know, voodoo...

EOT on my side.

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

too late, I've already made a doll with your name on it :D

http://www.toyvault.com/nightmares/Voodoo%20Dolls%20-%20Large.jpg

but you got a point, probably the ATi drivers are doing that stunning 3D look :eek:

which would explain why it doesn't show on screenshots.

it also works with VMR9, but a lot less 3D-ish than with EVR.

when I switched from a 8600GT to a HD2600, even the windows desktop looked way more contrasty.
like a better native contrast, there was far more shadow details :eek:

[Inventive Software]

Then it's something on the video *driver* level, not the renderer.

[leeperry]

yep, you both got a huge point.

thanks for the investigation work fellas ;)

what sucks BIG TIME is that it doesn't work through HR.

but it also works through the Direct3D custom renderers of KMPlayer, so what gives ?! :(

HR with this drivers enhancement would be the shiznit :eek:

[noee]

Interesting what you guys have to say. I am not near the expert that you guys are, but my monitor is professionally calibrated recently and I run it at 24Hz, fwiw, and it's a "crappy" LCD.

I've tried to be consistent with my set up, using CoreAVC as the decoder for my upscaled SD material as well as my HD material (30P AVCHD). For whatever reason, yes, I do see the subtle sharpening by EVR vs. HR, and I think you guys are right, it's related to the ATI driver.

I simply can't get FFdshow (latest build 1960) to decode my HD material with any consistency, so I've only been using FFdshow for resizing (SD) and sharpening (SD and HD). When doing neither, I remove FFdshow from the chain and have CoreAVC -> Renderer directly.

Even though I have my ATI driver set for "center timings", I've not turned off GPU scaling via CCC yet, so perhaps that has an impact too?