AutoMKV trouble with aspect ratio

[hrgiger6]

I need a little help understanding how to get an mkv file that when burned as a dvd displays with the right aspect ratio and no black bars. I ripped a 4:3 source LD to a standalone dvd recorder, one full dvd per LD side (3 sides at HQ.) When I encode with AutoMKV (x264/AAC) to crop the sides a little the resulting mkv looks fantastic. But when I convert it on to a DVD the result has small black bars top and bottom added on. Its as if the mkv file told the DVD burning program the wrong AR and it doesn't want to crunch the 720 width to 640 only so it does that and crunches the 480 down as well to preserve the 1.5 AR. I don't want that. I want the DVD program to know its a 1.33 so if I pop the DVD in a player it automatically goes to 4:3 with no black bars. How do I change the settings in AutoMKV to achieve this?? I've seen a lot of talk about widescreen etc. But I just want an old time 4:3 dvd from a 4:3 Mkv file. Some screen shots to illustrate:

Original DVDr recording from LD:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/hrgiger6/Original.jpg




Side cropped AutoMKV file:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/hrgiger6/Mkv.jpg




AutoMKV file burnt to DVD:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/hrgiger6/DVDresult.jpg


How do I get rid of the black bars???

[zacoz]

What are you doing to get it onto the DVD, as you mention both "converting it on to a DVD" and then "AutoMKV file burnt to DVD"? Does your DVD end up with a MKV file on it if you look at in Windows Explorer or does it have a VIDEO_TS directory with IFO & VOB's?

If you've got an MKV file then it's not going to play on a standalone DVD player. :( If you've got a VIDEO_TS diretory with IFO & VOB's then why on earth would you first convert to mpeg-4 (MKV) and then convert that to mpeg-2 (DVD) :confused:

Is the "Side cropped AutoMKV file" picture a capture from playing the MKV on your PC? What player program?

Is the "AutoMKV file burnt to DVD" picture also captured from the same player program?

EDIT: Seems you need to review rule 8 - seems you've already been answered regarding this issue 2 days ago in Newbies (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1135525#post1135525) forum yet ignored the valid suggestions and proceeded to post here and in another thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1136106#post1136106) - which most recently breaks rule 12 for good measure.

[hrgiger6]

Yes I used several programs including convertx and dvd flick to try to convert it to a dvd (video_ts etc.) It plays fine but has added black bars (last picture.) I guess I didn't explain very clearly the pictures (or else you didn't read it very well.) The first picture is a screenshot of the original dvd recording of the laserdisc. The second picture is after I encoded it using AutoMKV (x264/AAC) so I could #1. Get a smaller file size (the Laserdisc has 3 sides and my 3 dvd's (1 per side at HQ) was a full dvd9, #2. Crop the black sides off that you see in the first picture. The third picture is after I converted it to dvd using convertx. Yes all three pictures were captured with smplayer but they appear the same when captured with mpc as well. Since you want to read the other posts on other topics and not this one - If you can find me a program that can jam 9 gigs of video_ts onto a dvd5 AND crop the sides off of the video_ts recorded on the original dvd recordings I will gladly use it - but I can't find it - all such 2dvd2onedvd type programs I have found are just add files hit go.

EDIT: It seems you need to read the post more closely. I did the suggestions of the other fellows, they were very helpful - and even politely reported back on the success or not. That was a different topic. That one was skewed by all of the subversive advice on not encoding with AutoMKV rather than my real question which was why do the black bars show up on a 4:3 AR when burned to DVD (as video_ts?) This one is a new topic that clearly states: AutoMKV trouble with aspect ratio. I clearly asked for information on how to set the aspect ratio options in the advanced tab to get the correct information encoded into the mkv so that later a dvd recording converting program will also encode the correct aspect ratio information so it will play properly. If you do not know how or why this is getting screwed up and do not know how to set these options then thanks anyway.

[zacoz]

The issue's got nothing to do with AutoMKV from what you've posted. You are assuming that AutoMKV is messing up the AR - have you checked it in avinaptic (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=966470#post966470) or a similar program to prove it's AutoMKV at fault.

You are feeding Convertx a non standard DVD resolution (something less than 720 x 576 / 720 x 480) and it is converting it to fit within 720 x 576 / 720 x 480, presumably applying black bars as it sees fit (I've not used the program myself). Convertx is making the decision how to resize it.

...instead of lambasting my approach before they understood it.
The other posters, myself included understood your approach - we just questioned it based upon our experience.

[hrgiger6]

The other posters, myself included understood your approach - we just questioned it based upon our experience.Yes and the reason I posted on this forum is because I value your experience. I am new to all of this and one guy is blasting people for not reading documentation, most if not all free software has dogshit documentation, with stuff like (if you don't know what this is then don't use it) and it is really hard to learn anything without asking.

You are feeding Convertx a non standard DVD resolution
Yes but even when I encode with AutoMKV at the full 720*480 (no cropping) from the source DVD and then try to create video_ts it has the black bars.

I did as you suggested and checked a full frame attempt with avinaptic: Here is what it said.

[ Relevant data ]

Resolution: 720 x 480
Width: multiple of 16
Height: multiple of 32

[ Video track ]

Codec ID: V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Resolution: 720 x 480
Frame aspect ratio: 3:2 = 1.5
Pixel aspect ratio: 8:9 = 0.888888
Display aspect ratio: 4:3 = 1.333333
Framerate: 29.970030 fps

Does that look right? I'm new to PAR, DAR, etc.

[zacoz]

Yes, Avinaptic shows that AutoMKV is storing the correct information when processing using the original width.

DAR = PAR * SAR (called FAR above), so from your check 1.333333 = 0.888888 * 1.5 (which is true).

You will though continue to have an ongoing problem attempting to crop the black bars off this video and then play it on any screen without some black bars or picture distortion. I'll try to explain as best I can.

The original video has a width of 720 (which includes 708 real video pixels and 12 black bar pixels) and height of 480. Therefore the original SAR = 720 / 480 = 1.5

The TV has a fixed Display Aspect Ratio of 4:3 i.e. 4/3 = 1.333333, therefore to completely fill the screen without any black bars then the cropped video must have a DAR of 1.333333

Given that DAR = PAR * SAR therefore that also means PAR = DAR / SAR

therefore for the original 720 x 480 video:
DAR = 4 / 3 = 1.333333
SAR = 720 / 480 = 1.5
PAR = DAR / SAR
PAR = 1.33333 / 1.5 = 0.888888

but once again this includes black bars so the true SAR of the video excluding black bars is really 708 / 480 = 1.475, the PAR is we know 0.888888 and the true DAR therefore 0.888888 * 1.475 = 1.311111

The problem is that these figures are not exact rather contain recurring decimals, so once you start cropping and encoding there are always going to be rounding errors that must be accepted. AutoMKV (or any other encoding codec / program / GUI) must settle on a combination of SAR, PAR, and DAR that can be encoded and conform to the DAR = PAR * SAR relationship. Your AutoMKV log should enable you to see what was decided upon based upon your settings and it also shows you what the aspect error will be.

For an NTSC DVD compliant video that fills a 4:3 TV without black bars anywhere the DAR must be 4/3 = 1.333333, the resolution is 720 x 480 (i.e. SAR of 720 / 480 = 1.5) and calculating out PAR = DAR / SAR = 1.333333 / 1.5 = 0.888888

Inputing a cropped MKV that has necessarily contained a level of error from the original source means that something is going to be off when it is subsequently converted to DVD through ConvertX. The DAR, SAR & PAR can't be different for a NTSC DVD compliant video therefore either the picture needs to be distorted or have black bars added. Most people (in my personal experience) would prefer black bars rather than a distorted picture and that's likely the approach taken by ConvertX.

Please realise I'm not trying to have a go at you, but due to the 2 conversions happening (mpeg2 --> mpeg4 --> DVD) the final DVD is likely distorted and has black bars.

As above, it was established your original source video has a DAR of 1.311111, it means there is no way to crop it, have it conform to NTSC DVD compliant video, and display without black bars unless you distort the picture, or overcrop. So you have 3 choices:

shrink your original source and settle for black bars, or
find an application that will allow you to crop and distort the picture via irregular resizing, or
find an application that will allow you to overcrop and rezise the picture without irregular distortion

I'm not sure of the exact format your ripped laser disc is in, but note it seem to have IFO & VOBs, so if it is already DVD compatible then I'd opt for option 1 and just run it through DVD Rebuilder to shrink it down to DVD5 size. I can't suggest any apps for options 2 or 3, as I've never wanted or tried to do either when outputting to DVD.

Actually, I guess you could do 2 or 3 in AutoMKV by cropping in it AND resizing to 720 x 480 using manual cropping/resize on advanced settings tab. The MKV output could then convert to DVD and fill the screen. Not my preference as 2 conversions generally mean more loss of quality, but each to his own I guess.

[QUEENFAN]

Hello,

'cause I'm stuck at the same point right now I'd ask for a link where I can get some information regarding how to deal with AR.
Most of my source-videos are 16:9 with or without bars and I would like to keep exactly this source AR in my xvid or x264 encodes.

Some time ago I read something like getting the best quality when cropping the bars, encoding and let the player do the rest when playing. But I'm not quite shure if every player is working like it should, so I would prefer to encode in a way every player can deal with.

Many thanks in advance for your help.