Future of Nandub, divx and other stuff...

[aleksander]

Well...
New Year has begun…
Last year has been for me a year full of new adventures. The biggest one was – Divx…
I remember how I have discovered this excellent site and it’s fabulous board…
Congrats Doom9 – this is really a PIECE of work….Hope you can make it run forever :)
My first attempts were with Flask – I can’t forget my excitement when my first movie has been done….Since that a lot has changed – I discovered Nandub and it’s tremendous SBC and later Gknot. What can I say – You guys – Nando (Vv_Nn) and TheWef – are my heroes.
Of course I have to admit that without Doom9 I would still be sitting on my butt in front of computer wondering “What the hack is going on with this divx and all that stuff ???”…
I remember when I wrote Nando once asking such a stupid question (forget it – I won’t mention it here – don’t want you guys to laugh)….
I don’t wanna bother you with my personal (kinda) life, so let me get to my point…
What has happened to Nando??? I know – this has been asked many times. But let me ask you once again – What happened to Nando???
For a long time there is nothing new going on in relation with Nandub. Of course – there have been Nandub-lumafix and Nandub-ecf-file-fix released, but nothing in terms of Nandub and SBC itself.
So I have figured out that maybe I will try to encourage some of you guys to do something with it.
I have to mention here that I don’t have a CLUE about programming and all that stuff.
Why don’t you guys try to get together (not literally) and think about new version of Nandub that will make use of SBC and will incorporate divx 4.xx also?
@ Koepi – what has happened to Maras??? I remember your hacks – could you try to do something with divx 4.xx???
@ DDogg, realSpiderman, rmatei, Steady, Ookami, dividee – guys – you have the knowledge – you know WHAT exactly is going on… Could you try to get together and work with some of the best programmers over here on the new Nandub???
Take a look at PowerDivx Team – they have the potential, will and help of other people. Maybe it’s time to create something like Nandub Team????
I’m sure there will be a lot of people willing to help in testing and providing some necessary info about stuff you need –
@ manono, cofferscuffs, MaTTer – guys – you seem to be very active here – can you say a word and help me to encourage them????
@ BetaBoy – you’re the guy from DivxNetworks – I’m sure (at least I hope) you can provide some useful info and documentation about divx 4.xx.
@ everybody – what do you thing ??? – any of you over there thinking in the same way as I am???
Let’s give them our support – maybe we will be successful !!!!!
I know that divx 4.5 and divx 5 are around the corner (should be) so maybe it is pointless to start working on new version of Nandub which will make use of SBC and divx 4.xx. But maybe we will still be able to make use of SBC with divx 5 ???
Nando has introduced many options allowing us to control the codec wholly. Maybe it is pointless with divx 4.xx or 5???
I’m writing here since I want to know your opinion, guys. I want to know if there is still something that can be done – something that will help us control the quality of our rips – something that we can use to make it even better.
Waiting for your opinions…
Take care
aleksander

p.s. this discussion is supposed to be serious, so please do not post something like : Why don’t you do it yourself if you’re such a smart-ass“...

[diji1]

Why don’t you do it yourself if you’re such a smart-ass :) :) ...lol

[BlackSun]

Interesting post IMHO. Of course this is a good idea to join our forces/knowledges/skills. But a project need leaders who will able to motivate coders.

Actually we are doing something similar with the PowerDivX Team: antp, Matthias Lenk (coder of DeDynamic) and me as the PowerDivX Coder Team, and ChristianHJW and BetaBoy (even if he doesn't show himself) as the leaders.

We have some greats projects on our board: Using MP3PRO, OGG and AAC with AVI and the TMF file format which is an AVI replacement (see the spec in the articles sections at www.powerdivx.com). Tronic (TMF Creator), IngoRalfBlum(Coder of the only Ogg DSF) and Nic (Lot of DSF) are working on these projects and any help will be appreciated.

In our board you'll understand why AVI can handle properly VBR Audio, even Avery Lee himself give us a post.

Of course PowerDivX 4.0 is still under development. Check out www.powerdivx.com for any informations or if you want to participate...

Good luck aleksander

[aleksander]

BlackSun....
I visit your page from time to time. Actually my idea came out when I was looking at your page. You had the power to get all those people together and motivate them to work. Can't wait to see the results of it - especially interesting seems to be developing of new file standard - TMF.
If you need beta-testers or something - let me know. I don't have a clue about programming but I can test something for you. Of course I am time-limited, but will try to help...
take care BlackSun and good luck!!!!!
aleksander

ps. About a project leader - well - only one person comes to my mind - Doom9 !!!

[BlackSun]

Hmmm, I don't think Doom9 is a good idea because he's too busy... I think it will be interesting to start a small website for coder, like coder.doom9.net or coder.powerdivx.com

This website will announce new projects, will host projects, a forum for developpers... Coder who will visit this website will be able to decide and participate to a project...

My forum and website is opened for such projects...

[aleksander]

Good idea....
Let's wait for Doom9 and his opinion on this. Maybe he will start something like that...
Anyways -- good ideas how to make this project run are always welcome...
take care
aleksander

[Doom9]

I have to agree with that... I'm really running in the red zone already.. last week I had no free minute.. I was working on projects for my page all the time.

but to get back to the original topic of this thread.. I don't think Nandub will go anywhere from this point on. DivX 4.5 and above will give external programs a lot more control about the codec so stuff similar to what nandub does for divx3 will be possible and probably be implemented in external programs like morphix and divx4log. furthermore let's not forget that there's a new codec on the horizon: xvid.

and I think vbr encoding in the codecs will go a way that no nandub is needed... however, stuff like robshot did with cce will become more important.. you actually manually make some changes to the bitrate distribution and quantizer settings to obtain a better quality (but that means some manual work).

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by Doom9
but to get back to the original topic of this thread.. I don't think Nandub will go anywhere from this point on. DivX 4.5 and above will give external programs a lot more control about the codec so stuff similar to what nandub does for divx3 will be possible and probably be implemented in external programs like morphix and divx4log.



You are wrong here, in the last discussion with Gej, he told me that there is no way to give more control to externals programs. divx4log and MorphiX are dead... I whish I am wrong.


furthermore let's not forget that there's a new codec on the horizon: xvid.


Of course... but they do not have the time and the money of DivXNetworks...


and I think vbr encoding in the codecs will go a way that no nandub is needed... however, stuff like robshot did with cce will become more important.. you actually manually make some changes to the bitrate distribution and quantizer settings to obtain a better quality (but that means some manual work).

I am sure there is more possibilities with Nandub. I've done some tests with XviD, and doing the first pass not ratecontrolled by using a fixed quantizer give a Perfect result ! Why not doing a small encore which will:
- Do a first pass with Constant Quality (for DivX)
- Store 1st pass information in a .stats file (.stats are better than .log)
- Do the 2nd pass by just reducing the average bitrate...

For more information, see the xiphrom source code (Morphix for XviD) at www.xvid.org

[Teegedeck]

Originally posted by BlackSun


I am sure there is more possibilities with Nandub. I've done some tests with XviD, and doing the first pass not ratecontrolled by using a fixed quantizer give a Perfect result ! Why not doing a small encore which will:
- Do a first pass with Constant Quality (for DivX)
- Store 1st pass information in a .stats file (.stats are better than .log)
- Do the 2nd pass by just reducing the average bitrate...

For more information, see the xiphrom source code (Morphix for XviD) at www.xvid.org

Sounds good. (This is pretty much how GordianKnot works together with Nandub, forcing quantizers/CLs to Nandub via .ecf-files. And for me and others, this gives best results.) Have you tested it extensively?

[BlackSun]

Nope I haven't tested it extensively as:
- My CPU is a Duron 700 :(
- Very busy with coding :(

In my previous post, please replace "encore" by "encoder" :D Anyway I think this sound interesting. Maybe we should take a look at the Vidomi code, if I remember, there is an options called 'DivX 4 hack', dunno what is it.

I expect more people in this thread !! Aleksander ?!

[aleksander]

@ BlackSun
Yes...I expected some more people here...There is just you posting here mostly...:):)
Actually I expected people I mentioned in the post (Koepi, Steady, DDogg, realSpiderman, rmatei,dividee, Ookami, manono, LotionBoy,...) to post here with their opinions, but unfortunately they're not :(:(
How to inform them to post their opinions here????
I also nnoticed something interesting (I think...)
Nandub web site is still online.
As far as I know, you have to pay for keeping the web site on a server, you have to pay for a domain and all that stuff...
The www.nandub.org is still working. I can understand that it was online last year, cause probably Nando has paid for the whole year. But why is it still online, where he is not intending to do anything about Nandub??? Ther are hundreds of pages all over the world (including this one, of course) that have Nandub files (together with source). So...either someone is paying for Nandub page because he is a good person with a lot of money, or Nando is keeping this web site online cause he is planning something in the future....
What do you guys think????
take care
aleksander

[BlackSun]

I don't think this is right, the website is hosted by sourceforge..

[aleksander]

OK....So I was mistaken...
If it's SourceForge than I understand it's for free....
Well...I was hoping that maybe something is going on as there was a lot of rumours about new version of Nandub, that was supposed to be "around the corner"....
take care

[BlackSun]

No way... Even no news from Phreak404... Doom9 can you post a news about this thread ? It's time to see if we can do something like a nandub fo DivX 4

[TheWEF]

i know that nando had done beta-test versions that worked with divx4.
pheak404 aka vimvam aka int21h (on this board) is still around.
http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=49
you could ask him if he has the source.

wef.

[aleksander]

@ BlackSun
I wanted to ask Doom9 for posting a news about this thread, but you seem to be the more right person to do it....
@ Doom9 - hope you can post such a news...
@ TheWef - so...what's your opinion about the whole idea????
take care
aleksander

[BlackSun]

Phreak404/Vim(on Irc)... Stop changing your nick :p

Let's see... so, maybe we need to start the coder.doom9.net ?

[ProfDrMorph]

About Nandub for DivX4: wasn't there an API document somewhen that described how to use the divx.dll in special applications? I had a backup copy of it on CD but currently I've lend the CD to a friend so I can't look up if it was meant for DivX4 or only OpenDivX. This document could help in the creation of a special 2-pass DivX4 application.

I know many people who use Nandub do it because it's so highly configurable and so creates high quality video but we should also think about an "easy 2-pass mode". The user can decide if he wants the easy way ( a simple wizard that asks you a few simple questions and then does the best I can ) or the advanced way. So we would have an encoder that fits the needs of the average user AND the more advanced ones. IMO the best thing to do atm would be including this encoding features directly into Gordian Knot in some way since it already has an easy to use interface that has a lot of useful options.

[aleksander]

If there is such a document, probably the right person to ask for it would be BetaBoy form DivxNetworks.
About an "easy 2-pass"...
Well...We want to have a Nandub for divx4 because of all the features it has and all the control that you can have over the codec.
I think there is no need for "easy 2-pass", because it exists right now. Divx 4 gives you a certain level of control.
We want to have a "total" control, such as with divx 3.11
You can disagree with me. Maybe I don't quite get your point.
But first I want to encourage some people to start working on it. Later we can think of additional features.
take care
aleksander

[Doom9]

I think the api doc should be somewhere on projectmayo.com

@blacksun... I didn't know that.. I thought you or junto told me abou that.. but the last time I talked to anyone involved in DXn was a while back. I also wouldn't discard xvid just because there's no multi million dollar company behind it. PowerDivX is the best example that it works without that. My site is another..

a lot of the moderators that have been refered to here are actually not very active anymore (or not active at all) so you can wait a long time to get a comment. And after all.. it takes coders not moderators to create something

[Teegedeck]

I gotta say, I think external developers investing work into DivX4-applications/modifications are in danger of wasting their time (please don't feel offended) because they make themselves dependent on a commercial codec that A) can change without notice and make your changes naught (they are already leaving you out in the rain as you can read in one of BlackSun's posts), B) is closed source, so it is difficult AND illegal to change it. IMHO it could be much more fruitful to accept that the evolution here will branch into two different directions:
- DivX4 for companies (legality assured) and users that don't want to think about it a lot
- XviD for open source developers and power-users

Since both are MPEG4-compliant, you don't have compatibility-problems with these two; you can just change the fourcc and for example decode an XviD-stream with the DivX4-decore. I also hope that DivX-Networks will leave XviD alone since Isibaar made it clear to BetaBoy that they won't go official with binaries and hence won't eat into their profits.

[-h]

> Since both are MPEG4-compliant, you don't have compatibility-problems with these two; you can just change the fourcc and for example decode an XviD-stream with the DivX4-decore.

.. but for how long? There are over 15 MPEG4 profiles, and I very much doubt that DivX4 fully (without mentioning it) supports quarter-pel ME, B-frames, MPEG quantisation matrices and whatever else may creep into something as experimental as XviD over time. There have already been some grey-block issues mentioned in the forums..

For that reason, I can see quite a demand for *full* MP4 spec-compatible players in the future, that play whatever valid stream you throw at it. Perhaps with Ogg support hacked in ;)

Should be fun.

-h

[aleksander]

As some of you have mentioned here, Xvid is the way to go....
Maybe we shouldn't be thinking about Nandub for divx4 and start thinking about Nandub for Xvid???
If I made a terrible mistake saying that - don't blame me. I'm not a coder so all that stuff is kinda hard for me to understand...
take care
aleksander

[cofferscuffs]

@aleksander
I honestly don't know what's going on, but it seems to me atm, lots of devolpers are losing intrest in their projects.

[BlackSun]

Damned computer which close the window when I post my message :(

@Doom9: the problem is a motivation problem. Everybody can't have your motivation, mine or the motivation of other open-source soft. Money can be a motivation, but this motivation is different...

Anyway we need to keep in mind that DXN's objectives are different from backing up DVD. It's different for XviD. Maybe XviD is the way to go...:confused:

[Teegedeck]

Originally posted by -h
There have already been some grey-block issues mentioned in the forums... Did you actually see those? I've never seen that bug though I still use the old DivX4-DShow-filter and latest XviD, so I guess it has been fixed, whatever it was? :)

[LotionBoy]

Since someone asked for my opinion, I'll be glad to throw it out. I'm a film/CompSci major. I know Java and some ASM. I'm currently teaching myself C, C++, and hopefully MMX/3dNOW/SSE. Of course, I am also taking 3 programming classes and producing a movie, so my time is kinda limited. I'm also wading through the Nandub/vDub source trying to figure it out. I'd definetely be willing to work on improving Nandub, but at the moment, I probably don't have the skills to be of much use. On the other hand, if we are going to improve Nandub, we are going to need a clearly defined goal list of what improvements are needed and people to work on them. Setting up a website for this might be a very good idea.

LotionBoy

[Ookami]

First, I wrote this offline and in a hurry so bare with me.

Hello aleksander... I'm honored to be in your list of knowledgable people, but I'm really a Nandub newbie. As Nandub came out I was already somewhat bored in testing new programs for DVD backup (this is the main reason why I lost my motivation to update my freeware list), and I moved more toward capture and NLE... And I rather use CBR MP3 and use a rather high bitrate for my capture, so I use Nandub not very often (and if, I use mostly presets like the ones from Demi9od)...

I saw dozens of those "let's make a perfect backup program" project started and none of them lasted. Ideas a really easy to have, but you need the will and time to make it happen. The german speaking folks at Ultimateboard have shown this especially ;) (vielleicht wird's ja was aus dem Alleskoenner Projekt).

I hope that Nando is still somewhere around (maybe under another nick?), if not all the best for him (and if yes, all the best for him too)...

I like programs like FairUse, great UI, perfect readme, patient hobby programmer and so on.

My thoughts on this stuff:

Powerdivx - WOW,wow,wow! BlackSun when did that happened? Was I longer offline than I thought? Can you read my mind (at last someone is noticing the TMF format!)? Please, keep it up!

Project leader - Well, how about BlackSun? It seems he's motivated, has great amount of knowledge and of course he is a newbie (hehehe)...

So, what's the project? I mean, a new Nandub could be everything, from a new revolutionary way to cook eggs to a freeware GPL combo that uses Xvid...

BTW, "xiphrom" is a nice name. Hehehe.... I wonder if I will ever get mentioned for proposing the name to Xvid (and yes, my ego would love it :D )...

Well, take care y'all and watch out for more "..." and "(" from me.

Cheers,

Ookami.

[Doom9]

blacksun.. well.. I still believe in divx4 but with so much time passing by since I was first told about an upcoming p4 optimized release (along with the statement that an amd optimized version wouldn't be far off).. and since that time I haven't really heard or seen much from the DivX4 team. I submitted a few sample clips and pointed out a few issues that clearly need to be taken care off but atm it just feels like the development has stopped. The rate control is still far away from being perfect (I'm getting almost +-20mb doing 4 TV episodes per CD), the quantization for high frequencies is too low (resulting in ugly looking edges), and .. I just hear of no progress. What I know some new versions of DivX4 should be out by know (can't really say much more in public because I've promised not to tell).. but there's nothing. So.. one might think my fears I had when the first divx4 beta came out that the release was premature and my fears that the team would move on to programming drm solutions rather to try and improve the codec has finally come true.

and there's several open source projects that have proven to be very good.. just look at linux, lame, virtualdub, etc. Some people do have the motivation to carry on without any apparent gain for a really long time... can't say if I will have the energy to go on over such a long period myself.

[Emp3r0r]

I very much agree and hope we can bring together much talented people. In my opinion it isn't so much the coder's or the leaders job to make such a project successful... I believe it is more a combination of:
A) Solid Documentation
ex: Doom9's site
B) Community
ex: Doom9's site
C) "motivation to carry on without any apparent gain for a really long time"

C is the tough one but with B to keep people involved and A to get people involved (such as newbies like blacksun :)) I see no reason why such a project would not have an impact on the topic.

I think Nandub will still be around a while due to it's sheer usefulness and this is what we should strive for... Something new, something useful.

[Teegedeck]

I ask myself: [i]What do we want that DivX4 can't do anyway? Before you start throwing bricks at me, I just wanted to say that we should perhaps figure that out for a motivation - as this is important as pointed out. Of course I personally have some thoughts about what the goals of the*encoding* community could be from here on:

1) We want to influence bitrate-distribution manually for two-pass. Until compression doesn't get better (by about 30% I'd say), it still makes sense to set lower rates for credits and boost sequences that are demanding and/or important.
2) We want a really good 2-pass! (DivX4's isn't good)
3) We want a better compression/quality-ratio... (If that would be reached we could perhaps dump #1 and have an easier life...)
4) We want a codec that doesn't crash...
5) And of course we want all this to get faster.

OK, me personally thinks that

ad 1) GordianKnot with XviD basically already makes that possible.
ad 2) GordianKnot with XviD is close to that; if XviD could read .ecf-files and if TheWEF adjusted GKnot to predict filesizes for XviD's quantizers, it would be exactly like BlackSun proposed. [A really good two-pass will get much more complex though, once this adaptive quantization thing really works - with different quantizers for each MB.] And of course it is debatable whether GKnot is inferior to traditional curve-compression in Nandub (I don't think so).

Points 3) - 5) can only happen inside the codec.

ad 3) This means introducing B-frames, good adaptive quantization etc... With DivX4, we can just sit back and wait till it happens, with XviD some of you talented people could try and help speeding it up. It might take a really long time though - B-frames would also be very demanding on hardware, so I guess right now improving adaptive quantization could be a main task, and also users could contribute to this one. It seems once you get into psychological aspects of encoding, it takes very extensive testing till you get results -- if you judge it by the time it took LAME to arrive at the point where it is now (--alt-presets). So point 1) will probably remain important for a long time.
ad 4) Well... You know what I mean!
ad 5) Takes very specialised coding-skills

Well, I feel pretty much cheered up by the open-source examples doom9 mentioned, so I think there really is no reason to believe commercial codecs should by principle be better than what the community here (and over there at videocoding.de) can put together.

[Teegedeck]

By the way, Ookami apparantly was the very first to come up with the name 'XviD'...

[aleksander]

Well...
It's nice to see you all guys posting your opinions here...
This discussion is becoming really great.
Still hope for some other to post (DDogg, realSpiderman, Koepi - where are you guys??)
Koepi's post should be really interesting since he is the one who has done some Nandub hacks so he knows a lot about it.
I'm also glad to hear that LotionBoy is working on Nan/Vdub source...
I can see that you guys really count on Xvid. Since it's open source it should have a long future. But also remember what happened to OpenDivx after releasing Divx4. This project is not what it was before.
All we need right now is just a good list of goals and some coders (yep.... this can be hard do to...)
My initial idea was to encourage some guys to work with Nandub to make it more universal tool - to have the same level of control over other codecs as it has over divx 3.
But as I can see this can be problematic.
On the other hand....
Originally posted by TheWef

i know that nando had done beta-test versions that worked with divx4.

and
Originally posted by Teegedeck

I think external developers investing work into DivX4-applications/modifications are in danger of wasting their time (please don't feel offended) because they make themselves dependent on a commercial codec that A) can change without notice and make your changes naught (they are already leaving you out in the rain as you can read in one of BlackSun's posts), B) is closed source, so it is difficult AND illegal to change it.
If we could only have this version of Nandub and its documentation. It could be easier to work on a stable version.
Maybe it is hard to implement all the functions of Nandub to work with divx 4. But Nando has done it. Maybe it is not that hard at all or maybe he is such an exceptional coder that noone can be a match fo him. Or maybe both. I'm not saying that other coders are not good - No way! I'm just saying that maybe they need to be encouraged. How about the undying gratitude of thousands of people all over the world??? Isn't that enough???
Well...waiting for your opinions guys....
take care
aleksander

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by Doom9
[B]blacksun.. well.. I still believe in divx4 but with so much time passing by since I was first told about an upcoming p4 optimized release (along with the statement that an amd optimized version wouldn't be far off).. and since that time I haven't really heard or seen much from the DivX4 team. I submitted a few sample clips and pointed out a few issues that clearly need to be taken care off but atm it just feels like the development has stopped. The rate control is still far away from being perfect (I'm getting almost +-20mb doing 4 TV episodes per CD), the quantization for high frequencies is too low (resulting in ugly looking edges), and .. I just hear of no progress. What I know some new versions of DivX4 should be out by know (can't really say much more in public because I've promised not to tell).. but there's nothing. So.. one might think my fears I had when the first divx4 beta came out that the release was premature and my fears that the team would move on to programming drm solutions rather to try and improve the codec has finally come true.


Here the truth !! the quantization of the DivX 4 is simply far from being perfect and it seems they don't really care about this. When I told Sparky about this problem, he told me it is normal... :o
Now when I see that the 2_PASS_VBR code from DivX 4 is pretty strange (new quantizer decision based on a Rand() function), I think they are more interested in the feature list than the quality of the features.


and there's several open source projects that have proven to be very good.. just look at linux, lame, virtualdub, etc. Some people do have the motivation to carry on without any apparent gain for a really long time... can't say if I will have the energy to go on over such a long period myself.

I know, it begin to be hard, but I'm in love with PowerDivX :p

[BlackSun]

Originally posted by Ookami
First, I wrote this offline and in a hurry so bare with me.

Powerdivx - WOW,wow,wow! BlackSun when did that happened? Was I longer offline than I thought? Can you read my mind (at last someone is noticing the TMF format!)? Please, keep it up!


Thanks, if you are interested in giving us your opinion check my forum. Tronic use my board as the official TMF/MCS board so everything will be developped at this adress.


Project leader - Well, how about BlackSun? It seems he's motivated, has great amount of knowledge and of course he is a newbie (hehehe)...


I can't!! I am really busy with PowerDivX 4, TMF and XviD. Too bad I'll be happy to lead this project, but maybe aleksander is the right person for this ?! I am the perpetual newbie, ROTFL


BTW, "xiphrom" is a nice name. Hehehe.... I wonder if I will ever get mentioned for proposing the name to Xvid (and yes, my ego would love it :D )...


xiphrom is morphix's revenge :D

[Bugs Bunny]

Oh hey I see Oookie is here hey ya Oookie and of cohse Weffie baby and some of the other old bloke nicks I recognized. Oh lets PONTIFICATE (heh new big word I learned for 2002) about Da Foocher of da vid scene!!

One thing some of the noobs got to realize is that this is a hobby for most of the blokes here, something ya get into when it's still interesting, and ya get out when things get stale and ya get bored. It's not a "now and forever shall we be wedded" thing, so if ya expect continued developer support for some of the apps like Nandub and FU and whatever, well, don't hold your breath. The blokes have probably moved on, like with a fair number of other (non-programmer but still techie) blokes that used to hang around here and dispense a lot of interesting dialog. They've all done their bit, and we thank them for it, but things change, people move on.

And they move on because it's stale. Around the MPEG2AVI/Flask days (which was like, uh, last year), Divx tools suck, so there was a groundswell of interest to make it better. First we got the MM4 tools (which FU best exemplifies), then we got Nanadub, which heralded the advent of 2-pass VBR. But that's it. The quality are pretty good at this point, probably the limit for MPEG4, and there's not a lot you can do to improve it, so people move onto more interesting things. It's the same with the others. When the tools were still developing and in flux, there was a lot of talk on bugs and getting better quality. Now it's mostly idle chit-chat from clueless noobs who wants to know what interleave means.

I see there are still blokes waiting for the next rev of FU or Nandub. I can't figure out why they bother. FU & NDub are intimately tied to Divx 3.11a, which is a hacked and now orphaned codec. Because it's a hacked MS property, it will never see mainstream support. As soon as the other codecs reach its level of quality, it will disappear. The writing is on the wall.

As for retrofitting NDub for Divx 4, I'll ask, why? Divx 4 has a pretty good (and more friendly) 2-pass VBR already, why is NDub needed? Whatever faults Divx4 has right now is because of the codec and not the interface, and the codec is constantly changing, unlike 3.11's single version. NDub is a hack on a hacked codec. You can't have a codec hack when that codec doesn't stay constant.

Da Big Picture (or "My View from Under a Rock"):

The main thing with Divx/MPEG4 is because of the CD size limit of 700 megs. We want to copy ("backup" if you want to be politically correct) DVD vids onto PCs, and CDs were the only common and cheap medium available. MPEG1 was too low-res, and SVCD/MPEG2 ate up too much space (and still look sucky), so Divx fitted nicely. But all you blokes who follow hardware are aware that DVD recorders (in various flavors) are making their way into the mainstream, and before too long that 700 meg limit will be 4.7 gig limit, which means that we can copy DVDs w/o having to transcode to lower-quality MPEG4. The big thing will be MPEG2 editing/reauthoring tools. Why waste time converting to MPEG4 and losing quality, when DVD platters are (going to be) cheap?

BTW, Doom9 bubba was talking about MPEG4 having its uses for transporting vids online. I can understand his feelings, because he's into the vid scene. But for homies like moi who don't do a lot of trading (OK I download vids every once in a woil), all we're interested is zapping some DVD vids onto, er, backup copies that we get locally. MPEG4 will, I suppose, be de rigueur for the trading blokes, but for the MAINSTREAM peeps, MPEG4 will mainly be used for net streaming (from commercial sources), and it will compete with several other technologies, like Real and WMV.

I read recently that some big honcho companies (like Apple, Intel, Sony, and some others) got together and agreed upon a "standard" specification for MPEG4. Not sure what that means, but it certainly doesn't mean that Divx is the last word on MPEG4. Puter companies are hurting in this recession, and everybody is looking for that killer app to push growth. No surprise, AV fits the bill, so there'll be much more development on this front (along with wireless).

Anyway, be happy that there are decent tools available. Why clamor for Divx 4 tools when the codec itself still isn't that great?

[aleksander]

Originally posted by Bugs Bunny

As for retrofitting NDub for Divx 4, I'll ask, why? Divx 4 has a pretty good (and more friendly) 2-pass VBR already, why is NDub needed?
.....
Why clamor for Divx 4 tools when the codec itself still isn't that great?
Well...The main reason for developing Nandub was to give us a better control over the codec. Divx 3.11 itself sucked (have you seen movies made with divx3.11 Low-Motion???). Thanks to all the features that Nandub has, we are able to create rips of superior quality. Of course I agree that divx 4 2-pass is more user friendly (read: easy) but it doesn't mean that it cannot be improved. This codec has some improvements over divx 3 in terms of quality which, if controled by other programs, can give us even better quality rips. I agree that divx 4 itself isn't that great - but maybe thanks to tools like Nandub it can be better???
You're also taking about the fact, that it is pointless to work on MPEG-4 because DVD-writers are becoming cheaper and more popular. But still for another year or two they will be out of range of average people. And here's the field for making some improvements over divx 4 and its successors. I think there will be some people that, inspite of DVD-recorders being cheap, would like to have few movies on the DVD-discs instead of one (with ac3 sound, menus, maybe without those unnecessary bonuses). That's why we shouldn't give up on developing new codec and tools for them.
@ BlackSun - thanks for mentioning me as a project leader, but I really don't have the skills (I'm not a coder) to be such a person. Of course, if this project (actually idea right now) is going to work, I will participate in it as much as I can.
take care
aleksander

[BlackSun]

@ BlackSun - thanks for mentioning me as a project leader, but I really don't have the skills (I'm not a coder) to be such a person. Of course, if this project (actually idea right now) is going to work, I will participate in it as much as I can.

As long as you can motivate people, it is enough :D

[Teegedeck]

That was interesting reading, Bugs, but I don't agree with the underlying "why bother at all" attitude. Ever wondered why we are still hanging around this forum though DVD-burners will come someday? Well, I guess there's 2 possible answers:
1: I get the impression that most of us (with the exception of traders), but especially the coders, don't have the money to get the latest hardware.
2: It's our hobby...


Originally posted by Bugs Bunny

I read recently that some big honcho companies (like Apple, Intel, Sony, and some others) got together and agreed upon a "standard" specification for MPEG4. Not sure what that means [...]

...I think it means that there _might_ be standalone-players one day that can play what is in our archives, now, so we won't have to re-encode it all.
Different MPEG4-profiles will be used (even RealMedia goes for MPEG-4) but to bridge those differences can't be such a big challenge... I guess all of you heard that Cirrus-Logic is probably already developing a decoder on a chip? It also indicates that in the long run MPEG-2 doesn't have a future since it simply is inferior to MPEG-4. The industry certainly realized that, too.

Anyway, be happy that there are decent tools available. Why clamor for Divx 4 tools when the codec itself still isn't that great? Pretty damn right :) We clamor for a better codec.

Anyway, as for _me_ there is no DVD-burner waiting around the corner :( , I'm happy that XviD can give me the full quality and anamorphous resolution of a DVD on, say, 3 CDs, and I hope that the space needed will shrink down to 2 CDs - or one (well, probably not) -because I simply don't want to use 3 CDs...

[-h]

By the way, Ookami apparantly was the very first to come up with the name 'XviD'...

I've seen 'xvid' a few times on the internet, from sites pre-dating the XviD codec. Perhaps worryingly, these projects are video related..

Re: DivX4 this, DivX4 that..

I can only see DXN paying less and less attention to the ripping community - and why should they? This community will typically not pay for the tools it uses, whereas businesses will be queueing up to throw real money at a DRM-enabled, streaming MPEG4 solution. If my goal was making money, I know what I'd be focussing on.

Re: XviD status..

XviD still has a fair bit of breathing room as far as quality goes - gruel has noted that the current PMVfast ME code has a lot of room for improvement, as do things like inter/intra block choices. I don't think a 10% drop in file size is out of the question, perhaps greater for high-action media like anime, which murder the current intra/inter choice method.

As for 2-pass functionality, there's no reason the Nandub mechanics can't be used - anyone knowledgable in how it chooses its quantisers could port the functionality across in a matter of days. The code's all there - the documentation isn't ;)

Re: MPEG4 itself..

The MPEG4 spec is reaching maturity, and we are definitely going to see a number of MP4-related utilities from companies, no doubt of variable quality and worth. In addition to this, once the H.26L people have finished their work, it will be integrated as another method of video compression in the MPEG4 spec. It reportedly gives bitrates half that of simple profile codecs (i.e. DivX4/MP43/XviD).

Video encoding is definitely not going to sit still.

-h

[aleksander]

Originally posted by -h
....
Re: XviD status..
....
As for 2-pass functionality, there's no reason the Nandub mechanics can't be used - anyone knowledgable in how it chooses its quantisers could port the functionality across in a matter of days. The code's all there - the documentation isn't ;)

YES!! That's what I've been waiting for!
All we need is a coder...Xvid is making its progress and it's open source. So...
Anyone????
Koepi??? You know Nandub very well...
waiting...
take care
aleksander

[-h]

I guess I should've been more specific - there are a number of factors in Nandub that are inherently only useful for the Microsoft MPEG4x implementations - the "few days" figure would cover 90% of the functions that people actually use. A number of the settings seem to be more voodoo than anything else, working sometimes, blowing up others.

Anyway, someone familiar with Nandub's code (not just its usage) will have to see how much they feel is worth carrying over. It'd be easiest to make it an external app, instead of merging with XviD itself (which already saves/reads .stats files).

On the other hand, having the codec's source allows much greater control over encoding than Nandub ever did - entirely new 2-pass methods would most likely prove rewarding.

-h

[Ookami]

Sadly, I cannot post in the original thread. :( AFAIK, the admin is very busy, I'll post a new thread. If it'll work later I will try to merge the postings...

Original posting:

"I will read all those replies later this day, but to answer a few things I read...

@BlackSun

I will take a look at your forum, since I'm no programmer I can only throw in some real newbie stuff...

Keep on your good work. BTW, is Danni somewhere around? He's always been very motivated and helpfull (I will post the first really working step by step MS MPEG 4 manual by him these days, for all those nostalgic people ;) ).

@Bugs Bunny

Are you related to the guy named "BabySmurf" from the old forum? Your humor is similar :D . Ookie... ROTFL.

@Emp3r0r

I agree 100% with you...

@-h

Now to clear this Xvid stuff up... On the first Doom9 board (ezboard) some people asked for a nice name for a new codec that MAYBE will be developed... I came up with Xvid )-; . Steady came up with a few dozens of names etc. Sadly I didn't saved this thread, there were many good and funny names on it... If someone else came up with the same name, that only means he invented the laser, er, I mean... Well... You know. *grin*

But seriously, gdlblade was one of the first Doom9 members who really started pushing http://www.videocoding.de ... People like him should get the respect.

Seriously II: When will the project start?

Cheers,

Ookie."

[Teegedeck]

Again, shortly, or not so shortly, about Nandub for XviD: The gain from tailoring a Nandub for XviD probably would be much smaller than what aleksander might be expecting. The tremendous leap in quality back when Nandub came up was due to the fact that it introduced a two-pass-encoding - but DivX and XviD can do that already (and in contrast to DivX-4, filesize-predictability seems no problem for XviD if you use it in combination with GKnot and VDub) - and that it compensated the weaknesses of the DivX 3.11 codec: That M$ codec was never meant for HQ-video but for extreme compression in streaming media, so consequently Nandub had to force it onto lower compression by influencing its bit-bucket (gauge) and stopped it from compressing especially dark frames way too strongly. Both are weaknesses that modern MPEG-4 codecs don't have. All gain that can come from an external application (GKnot, Nandub) is that it might make a better decision on which frame has to get compressed at quantizer 3 and which frame has to get compressed at quantizer 4 than the decision the two-pass-algo, that by no doubt will get integrated into XviD, makes . And we can already pretty well incluence this decision by manipulating the curve with GKnot. So I'm afraid that ATM you better not expect too much.

IF, however, _adaptive quantization_ gets into the game, two-pass encoding can get really, really, really complex and I guess we'll have a new playing-field for tools that perhaps can interact with the codec so closly that they can incluence the choice of quantizer for every single macroblock. But we'll have to see whether we'd be reaching a considerable quality gain or if it doesn't look worse if we just leave it to the codec.

So what I meant to point at: It's the codec itself that deserves the most attention and work since the most considerable gain in quality can only come from the codec IMHO.

[Ookami]

> It's the codec itself that deserves the most attention and work since the most considerable gain in quality can only come from the codec IMHO.

Teegedeck, a very good point! IMO, if even the developers don't know for sure what feature will come (or even go ;) ), then first we should maybe wait for a stable beta release (like Isibaar once stated) before dreaming our heads off. Hihi.

[Doom9]

don't count out ms yet... check this out: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/thirdgen/default.asp. I think this is what they demoed at CES. Of course.. we'll see how good the hype is once it's out... wm7 was really nothing new and wm8 was better, but still lacks behind nandub and divx4

[Doom9]

thread merging rocks :)

[Teegedeck]

Originally posted by Doom9
don't count out ms yet... check this out: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/thirdgen/default.asp. I think this is what they demoed at CES. Of course.. we'll see how good the hype is once it's out... wm7 was really nothing new and wm8 was better, but still lacks behind nandub and divx4
That page apparantly has ceased to be... From what I've heard about it, WM9 will look great at low bitrates, but be restricted to VHS-quality. That's why Panasonic will support it in their DVD-standalones, I guess. It would fit the picture as we could already experience it with WM8: you can set the bitrate as high as you want but you don't get a quality gain. Damn, I'm hanging around the forum the whole day! I'm an Internet-junkie! Maybe I should apply for moderating something, too. ;)

[Doom9]

huh? ms doesn't like external links or something.. I went back one layer to http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/default.asp and from there I was able to access it.

anyways.. this will work: go to www.microsoft.com/windowsmedia (maybe you have to type that in your browser I dunno), then click on the 3rd gen windows media button ( a gree one)).. and there you go

btw.. I'm doing another ripper comparison and it takes so damned long (checking seamless branching titles is a major pain in the ass believe me.. you have to rip with each pbc, then split up the thing on your hd into cell levels using vstrip and compare line by line, byte by byte) so I'm glad I have somebody to talk to while I'm waiting for an operation to finish.

[Bugs Bunny]

>Well...The main reason for developing Nandub was to give us a better control over the codec. Divx 3.11 itself sucked (have you seen movies made with divx3.11 Low-Motion???).

And the reason Nandub gives ya such control is because it was intimately tied to the codec. You don't have that with Divx4, as it's under continued development. The only way it would work is if the Divx company blokes officially sanction and support such a tool. But being that it's their main IP asset, I'd rather doubt that would happen.

Divx the company is a business, with employees to pay and profits to be made. Then, who would they cater too, people who pay money, or people who don't? It's simple, they go after the paying blokes. What do paying blokes want? Streaming! Do they want quantization/size control? Not much, since size control is only because of the CD size limit, and streaming vids don't bother with that. Am I surprised that size control still don't work roit in Divx4? Nope, since that's not their priority. Their priority is to make not only the codec, but vid servers with reliable isochronous transfers (oooh another big word...)

>you're also taking about the fact, that it is pointless to work on MPEG-4 because DVD-writers are becoming cheaper and more popular. But still for another year or two they will be out of range of average people.

Not really. The earlier DVD-RW drives are hitting the $300 mark, and the +RW are at $400, and they're just out of the gate. The magic number is $200, the level considered for mainstream consumption. We'll see that price point this year, probably around fall.

>Ad here's the field for making some improvements over divx 4 and its successors. I think there will be some people that, inspite of DVD-recorders being cheap, would like to have few movies on the DVD-discs instead of one (with ac3 sound, menus, maybe without those unnecessary bonuses).

Why?

Two things:

1) The main reason VCDs and SVCDs are still big (bigger than Divx in fact) is because you can play it on standalone DVD players. Divx doesn't have that important advantage, and never will. Commercial players will incorporate to MS WMV format (some have already committed to WMA), and may be Real, but not to some small company's codec that isn't widely supported. You may have multiple vids on one DVD, but it's no good when you are limited to playing it on the computer.

2) Media cost right now is still relatively expensive (around $5 for a DVD-R). At roll-out, they were about $10/disk. Note that this is still cheaper than the starting cost for CD-R ($20) and CD-RW ($25) when they first appeared. And given the interest and level of corporate commitment, I see the same downward price curve, which means that DVD-R will likely reach the $2 mark, may be even lower, this year. Once it gets below that point, why bother trying to fit multiple vids on one platter?

>That's why we shouldn't give up on developing new codec and tools for them.

Well nobody said we should give up on making new toys. But a codec is a "big deal", beyond what any one bloke can crank out in his spare time. And remember that Divx 3.11 is already pretty good, so a new codec has to be substantially better than that for people to switch (which is why I haven't bothered with Divx4).

I'm not saying the scene is dead. I'm saying that it doesn't exist in a vacuum, and industry developments do have impact on the hobbyist blokes. Commercial interests in digital AV is strong, and changes are afoot. Divx was good (still is good), and it's good enough to keep using until the smoke clears and we see what else comes out.

BTW, the scene never dies, it just rides on top of the tech wave and morphs into whatever is the next cool thing. May be 10-20 years from now, we'd all be playing codecs for holos. Dang, how old will I be then... I hope I can still have sex. Life has no meaning if ya lose the ability to screw, is wot my grandpa said. He's dead.