minidv capture not as good as expected

[aztech]

Hi everyone ,

its my first post so be gentle ;-)

I have a mini DvSony TRV 27 and have about 30 1 hr casettes to convert to DVD.

I use Pinnacle 11.1
I use (firewire) and the default DV capture in pinnacle
(3600bps) Shouldn't it be more? around 5000 or 6000.
but I can't change it unless I capture in MPEG2 .
I get a 12-13 GIG .avi /1 hour in DV capture
Is this the best quality possible ? I seem to read it is but :

When I feed my Mini DV direct to my 3:4 CRT TV What I see in quality (camera native avi ?) Is of excellent quality to me

But when I capture and play back on my 19 CRT monitor its OK quality but not as good as direct grainier a bit darker.

Is this normal ie just a playback issue or is there a better to way to capture or are all capture programs via firewire the same ?

Thanks
Chris

[scharfis_brain]

the capturing of dv-video is just a data copying process.
it doesn't alter the image data.

you may adjust your graphics adapters video overlay settings..

[Southstorm]

12-13GB for 1 hour in DV capture is about right. Keep in mind your TV has a lower resolution than your monitor, and is interlaced whereas you monitor is progressive.

[aztech]

scharfis_brain you say "the capturing of dv-video is just a data copying process.it doesn't alter the image data"

Therefore following that logic all capture programs are then the same right ?
but what about the 3600 bps sampling rate wouldn't that affect quality or is that the maximum for DV capturing ?

Is 12-13GIG per hour avi the maximum possible ?
I presume it is ...

I was told a capture card like like a pinnacle DC30+ would give me a better result than firewire capture.That doesn't seem right to me.

http://forum.doom9.org/images/smilies/thanks-t.gif
:thanks:

[scharfis_brain]

but what about the 3600 bps sampling rate wouldn't that affect quality or is that the maximum for DV capturing ?
I don't understand.

Do you mean MPEG2 RECOMPRESSION in realtime?
This cannot be good.

Capture/Copy the DV-Video as it is (13GB/hr) cut it using you favourite NLE and then compress it with a good MPEG2 encoder like ProCOder or CCE to MPEG2.

You may want to use the Application 'WinDV' to capture your DV-Videos via firewire.
It is small and stable. Further it doesn't alter your image data in any way.

[halsboss]

scharfis_brain you say "the capturing of dv-video is just a data copying process.it doesn't alter the image data"

Therefore following that logic all capture programs are then the same right ?
No. DV is digitally recorded in the DV camera tape, not analogue. WinDV copies the digital data from the camera, it does no "sampling" or anything like that. It's a digital data transfer, not a capture. Think of it like a mini network connection between 2 digital devices. Analogue captures are different and do sampling of signals.


I was told a capture card like like a pinnacle DC30+ would give me a better result than firewire capture.That doesn't seem right to me. "Capture Card" for DV ? "One better than the other in a digital data transfer" is just rubbish. One might be faster than another but firewire is just fine.

Looks like someone could be getting their terms mixed up re digital transfers and analogue captures, unless I've mis-understood what you're on about.

[JohnnyMalaria]

DV displayed on a TV always looks better than on a PC monitor. The "gamma responses" are different that result in the PC monitor looking somewhat washed out and dull. Also, DV is interlaced and on a PC monitor it has to be deinterlaced before display.

Both these things make the DV look worse. That's why many people use an external TV-type display to monitor the video while editing.

Same arguments apply for DVD, too.

[aztech]

halsboss says :
"DV is digitally recorded in the DV camera tape, not analogue. WinDV copies the digital data from the camera, it does no "sampling" or anything like that. It's a digital data transfer, not a capture. Think of it like a mini network connection between 2 digital devices. Analogue captures are different and do sampling of signals."

So if i'm understanding you guys properly: firewire transfer from my DV is exactly the same exact bits as the .avi file Pinnacle 11.1 gives me and its just my CRT Monitor that makes it look worse versus my CRT 32" TV right ?
I was confused because Pinnacle calls the firewire transfer a "Capture" (but I guess its a digital capture/transfer not analogue) with a 3.6KB transfer rate not a sampling rate.

Did I get it ?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Yep, you got it.

Re the capture/transfer thing - the terminology of the process of getting video to/from the camcorder is as emotional as Mac vs PC with strong arguments for and against both! I like the terms "import" and "export" that MS use with Windows Movie Maker.

[halsboss]

Don't know what Pinnacle 11.1 does to the received digital data. It may or may not process it in some way before storing it depending on your settings and it's own logic. 3.6KB is very very low like less than dialup speed !! ... look up firewire specs (known as 1394) - from memory something like 400 megabits per sec ...

[scharfis_brain]

I guess he means 3.6 mbps MPEG2 reatime encoding (which pinnacle IMHO does)
But realtime encoding results in wos quality and bad flexibility.
Storag has become cheap. So lossy compression is useless for this purpise.

[halsboss]

Yes. aztech appears to need WinDV to transfer the data unchanged, as you suggest, then process it from there... it isn't HDV is it ?

[bb]

I guess he means 3.6 mbps MPEG2 reatime encoding (which pinnacle IMHO does)[...]
May I guess, too? ;)
The DV transfer rate is about 3.6 MB/s, and Pinnacle can "capture" DV losslessly.

bb

[aztech]

Yes I meant a 3.6 mbps avi file transfered from my sony trv 27 miniDV where 1 hr gives me about 12-13 Gigs.

"aztech appears to need WinDV"

Why would I need WinDV if pinnacle does the same capture/ transfer via firewire???
Is there an added value for this ?

[scharfis_brain]

aztech, please do NOT confuse Mbps with MB/s.

Mbps means Mega bits per second while
MB/s means Mega Bytes per second

1 byte = 8 bits

[JohnnyMalaria]

Actually, mbps means millibits per second - rather slow!

[scharfis_brain]

oh, you're right, I'll correct my post above...

[halsboss]

Why would I need WinDV if pinnacle does the same capture/ transfer via firewire???
Is there an added value for this ?
Not if it's transferring and not processing the DV on the way to your hard drive... only a bit of confusion arising from your use of terminology ("(3600bps) Shouldn't it be more? around 5000 or 6000. " etc).

Now that you've got it onto your hard drive as DV as a whopping great file... you'll need to decide what to do with it. May I guess you'll want it onto a DVD playable in a DVD player since you say "to convert to DVD" ? Plenty of advice to read in these forums.

[aztech]

Thank you all,

Now that i've established that my capture is at its maximum quality , it brings me to my next question ...

I've used pinnacle 11.1 to do my editing, menus etc... and pinnacle has done a fine job with that so far...

Then again with pinnacle 11.1 , I rendered my edited result to a 4.7Gb DVD and thats when things started to go bad :-(

The viewing result on my 32 " CRT TV is Ok, but not good.
Its too dark, too grainy and i obviously lost some quality from going from a 13 Gig avi file to a compressed vob(mpeg2) 4.7Gb DVD.

I tried to tell Pinnacle to burn it on a 8.5 GB DVD to lose less resolution but it cannot seem to do this all it tells me is if I put 4.7G on a 8.5G i have 4.7 G free which is not what I want ; I want pinnacle to use all the 8.5 to compress less ... :-(

I 'm guessing from what I read on the forum that I can get Pinnacle to render an 13 G avi file on my hard disk with my editing included and then I would take my CCE 2.7 program
to render it in an MPEG 2 file of better quality ?

Does CCE 2.7 permit me to use my full 8.5 G DVD ?

How do I then convert this CCE MPEG file to a DVD /vob format
and not loose quality ?

[aztech]

I have to ask ;-) scharfis_brain.
What does scharfis mean ?
My wife is German but my German is not too good,
so I checked with an online translator no luck ...
But I do recognise your avatar:
"the disguised" tatooed homer" ;-)

anyways danke sheune für Ihre Hilfe .

[Southstorm]

For better quality, in CCE, set your Max bitrate to 8500, and you Average bitrate to 6500.

Once you've finished encoding to mpeg2, feed you files into DVD Flick. Make sure you set it to import straight mpeg2 so it doesn't try to reencode your files.

Taken from the DVD Flick site:

"A change was made in a recent beta to always re-encode DVD-compliant MPEG files unless you tick the "Copy MPEG-2 streams" option (Project settings -> Video -> Advanced). Previously the option was the opposite: DVD Flick would always copy DVD-compliant MPEG files unless the "Force MPEG re-encode" (or whatever it was called) option was ticked. Exl had to do this because many people were having problems with supposedly DVD-compliant MPEG files that really weren't (DVD Flick would fail during the combine sources step).

So, in summary you now need to tick the "Copy MPEG-2 streams" option to force copying rather than re-encoding, but if you do this you could possibly get an error during the combine sources step."

[aztech]

Can anyone help me out with the other questions i have Thanks :-)

Now that i've established that my capture is at its maximum quality , it brings me to my next question ...

I've used pinnacle 11.1 to do my editing, menus etc... and pinnacle has done a fine job with that so far...

Then again with pinnacle 11.1 , I rendered my edited result to a 4.7Gb DVD and thats when things started to go bad :-(

The viewing result on my 32 " CRT TV is Ok, but not good.
Its too dark, too grainy and i obviously lost some quality from going from a 13 Gig avi file to a compressed vob(mpeg2) 4.7Gb DVD.

I tried to tell Pinnacle to burn it on a 8.5 GB DVD to lose less resolution but it cannot seem to do this all it tells me is if I put 4.7G on a 8.5G i have 4.7 G free which is not what I want ; I want pinnacle to use all the 8.5 to compress less ... :-(

I 'm guessing from what I read on the forum that I can get Pinnacle to render an 13 G avi file on my hard disk with my editing included and then I would take my CCE 2.7 program
to render it in an MPEG 2 file of better quality ?

Does CCE 2.7 permit me to use my full 8.5 G DVD ?

How do I then convert this CCE MPEG file to a DVD /vob format
and not loose quality ?

[Southstorm]

Did you look at post #21

[aztech]

Thank you for the info. I did read # 21 But It wasn't completly clear for me.

1- So I can use Pinnacle to render an 13 G avi file on my hard disk with my editing included right ?
then I can take my CCE 2.7 program to render it in an MPEG 2 file of better quality but CCE 2.7 cannot burn to DVD so i have to use another program (ie DVD Flick)

2-Is DVD Flick the best quaity program (codec) to encode to DVD will it permit me to use my full 8.5 G DVDs or still compress it to 4.7GB

Thank you for your help

[Southstorm]

DVD Flick will do NO encoding IF you follow the direction in post #21.
It will then simply place your CCE encoded videos in a structure to be burned to DVD. The quality depends on your CCE output. Also, make sure CCE is set to create DVD compliant mpeg2.
If your not sure how to, look here: http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/ccebasic27.htm

[2Bdecided]

Then again with pinnacle 11.1 , I rendered my edited result to a 4.7Gb DVD and thats when things started to go bad :-(

The viewing result on my 32 " CRT TV is Ok, but not good.
Its too dark, too grainy and i obviously lost some quality from going from a 13 Gig avi file to a compressed vob(mpeg2) 4.7Gb DVD.

I tried to tell Pinnacle to burn it on a 8.5 GB DVD to lose less resolution but it cannot seem to do this all it tells me is if I put 4.7G on a 8.5G i have 4.7 G free which is not what I want ; I want pinnacle to use all the 8.5 to compress less ... :-(If you only have one hour of footage, you can't fill a 8.5GB DVD. About 1 hour of video at maximum DVD bitrates will fill a 4.7GB disc. Higher bitrate = not DVD compliant.

btw, however bad the encoder or low the bitrate, it shouldn't make things darker unless you have a colour conversion issue.

Cheers,
David.

[aztech]

Ok I therefore conclude that the DVD format of my film from avi (12-13GB for one hour)in MPEG2 gives 4.7GB and that is the standard format and I can't make it into a 8.5 GB :-(
and have less compression

Since I will use CCE to render my film in an MPEG 2 file of better quality then I don't have to use DVD Flick to make it in a DVD ie: (.vob) format ; I can use pinnacle right?
There is no advantage in using DVD Flick in this case ?

Thanks

[Southstorm]

You can use Pinnacle IF it will allow you to use your CCE encoded files WITHOUT re-encoding them.

You are correct it your conclusion of a 1 hour video not filling a 8.5GB DVD. This is due to the limitations of the DVD spec, not Mpeg2 compression in general. The newer High-Def spec allows much higher bitrates.

[2Bdecided]

I think aztech you should tell us the entire workflow for the comparison - i.e. the one that gives a "good" picture, and the one that gives a "bad" picture.

e.g.

Good picture = miniDV camcorder connected to TV via S-video and watched on a Sony 32" CRT

Bad picture = miniDV camcorder > firewire > DV-AVI on PC > edit using pinnacle 11.1 > encoded to MPEG 2 using ? with ? settings > burnt to DVD > played in Sony DVD player connected to TV via ?RGB/component/composite/S-video? and watched on a Sony 32" CRT.

Any part might be the problem (though the MPEG-2 encoder is the most likely culprit).

Cheers,
David.

[aztech]

Thank you Southstorm for your help
its getting clearer for me now ;-)

The only thing is I have no idea if Pinnacle will allow me to use my CCE encoded files WITHOUT re-encoding them ???

How would I get to know this ?

[Southstorm]

What is the EXACT name and version of Pinnacle that you have?

[aztech]

Pinnacle Studio Ultimate , Version 11.1

[Southstorm]

Check out page 277 of the users manual.

[aztech]

Ok Thanks ....

Let see page 277... hummmm remove the break pads from the housing ... Oupppsss wrong manual ;-)

So it would appear as though Pinnacle will allow me to use my CCE encoded files WITHOUT re-encoding them.

So basically by usinng Pinnacle and CCE the right way I should get the near best quality without complicating things and using 4 different softwares right ?

Now if I can just make the time to convert all those mini Dv cassettes ;-) Thanks again Southstorm ...

[Southstorm]

Glad to help