? “Planet Earth” Encoding Questions

[Synetech]

Hi,

I just got my mother the Planet Earth series from the BBC.

It is made up like this:


Disc 1:
Episode 1
Episode 2
Episode 3
Disc 2:
Episode 4
Episode 5
Episode 6
Disc 3:
Episode 7
Episode 8
Episode 9
Disc 4:
Episode 10
Episode 11
Disc 5:
Bonus Ep 1
Bonus Ep 2
Bonus Ep 3

It makes sense, except for one thing. Each of the first nine episodes is around 2500MB (2400-2600), but the last two (on disc four) are 3750MB. I understand that because there were only two episodes on that disc instead of three there was more space available, but it really screws things up. I have been putting two eps per disc on DVD5s (~90%), but now I’m stuck. I am trying to put eps nine and 10 on a disc (and 11 and bonus 1 on another), but it won’t work. The stupid 10th and 11th episodes are too big. I figured that they just encoded them at a higher bit rate, but to no significant benefit since the other ones were able to be encoded to ~2240MB and these last two were not visually different, thus not requiring more space. So, I tried setting it to 60% to make it the same size as the normal title (~2240MB each). Unfortunately, when I compare it to the original video, it is noticeably degraded, even with Shrink’s maximum sharpness AEC setting.

I don’t understand. Why is it that they were able to encode nine episodes to 2500MB just fine, and transcoding them down 10% to 2240MB makes little visible change, but the last two that they encoded to 3750MB to use up the available space cannot be transcoded down to 2240MB without really messing it up? It’s not like the last two episodes were of detailed, fractal patterns that needs more space; they are of the same things as the other episodes. Why couldn’t they have been consistent and just encoded them to 2500MB originally? Why can’t those two eps look the same as the other nine at 2240MB?

:confused:

[setarip_old]

Hi!

1) I'm surprised that, for such a high quality DVD set (and for your Mother), you weren't willing to simply make full DVD9 backups

2) Since you're using DVD5s, in light of the nominal (perhaps 25 cents US) cost of one disc, I'd suggest you simply use two DVD5s for copying Disc 4 - and be done with it...

BTW - Is the set you purchased the one with Sigourney Weaver doing the voice over, or David Attenborough?

[jshumate]

Short answer - the greater compression you are doing for episodes 10 and 11 in DVD Shrink better shows the flaws in the method Shrink uses to compress. A better solution quality wise would be to instead re-encode the episodes using something like DVD Rebuilder.

Rather than blast the BBC for not encoding 2 episodes exactly as a disc with 3 was encoded (think about what you are saying for a minute), we should all praise the BBC for actually using the extra disc space to bump up the bit rate. I can tell you that had this been produced in Hong Kong that they would have done exactly what you suggested - just used the same bit rate on episodes 10 and 11 as for the 3 episode discs.

DVD Shrink was built to be EASY and that is all. If you need better quality than it can give, you have to use DVD Rebuilder or something similar that actually re-encodes the video to a lower bit rate rather than do the kind of compression that Shrink uses. There's a detailed discussion somewhere here on Doom9 in a forum (I think it's a sticky) on how DVD Shrink actually works. It's very technical, but if you read it you may understand why trying to compress the higher bit rate files is not giving you the quality you want. The less Shrink has to compress, the better job it can do.

setarip_old's 2nd comment is well worth considering.

[Synetech]

1) I'm surprised that, for such a high quality DVD set (and for your Mother), you weren't willing to simply make full DVD9 backups
We don’t have an HD tv or player or anything, so there’s no reason for worrying about the quality of the play discs. If I could afford to burn up DVD9s, I could afford a tv bigger than 19" and the HD set instead of the regular one. The difference is really only noticeable on the computer (monitor) since anything played on the tv is lightly blurred anyway. (She actually wouldn’t notice it on the monitor either, but I’ve got mild OCD, so I HAVE to compare it to the original to make sure that it is reasonably close.)

2) Since you're using DVD5s, in light of the nominal (perhaps 25 cents US) cost of one disc, I'd suggest you simply use two DVD5s for copying Disc 4 - and be done with it...
I already thought of that (and some other people are apparently taking that route), except that (1) I cannot tolerate wasting space on the disc (stupid OCD coupled with poverty), and (2) I cannot tolerate the inconsistency that would create by having two eps per disc then suddenly one ep per for two then again two and again one (again stupid OCD).

BTW - Is the set you purchased the one with Sigourney Weaver doing the voice over, or David Attenborough? [/Color]
Attenborough. I actually read some information and reviews and such about the series beforehand and found that most people were nagging about the Weaver version, so I made sure to get the original.

Short answer - the greater compression you are doing for episodes 10 and 11 in DVD Shrink better shows the flaws in the method Shrink uses to compress. A better solution quality wise would be to instead re-encode the episodes using something like DVD Rebuilder.

DVD Shrink was built to be EASY and that is all. If you need better quality than it can give, you have to use DVD Rebuilder or something similar that actually re-encodes the video to a lower bit rate rather than do the kind of compression that Shrink uses. There's a detailed discussion somewhere here on Doom9 in a forum (I think it's a sticky) on how DVD Shrink actually works. It's very technical, but if you read it you may understand why trying to compress the higher bit rate files is not giving you the quality you want. The less Shrink has to compress, the better job it can do.
That’s the kind of information I was hoping for (sort of). I love to have technical information so that I can understand the problem, and hopefully figure out a solution. I have heard people say to reencode instead of transcode. DVDRb seems to be more trouble than it’s worth at this point (I’d have to buy the program, buy an encoder, figure out all the settings, and spend a lot of time and space doing it, not mention that it would be inconsistent with the rest of the set.) However I will definitely look into it for the knowledge in case I can use it for something else in the future.

Rather than blast the BBC for not encoding 2 episodes exactly as a disc with 3 was encoded (think about what you are saying for a minute), we should all praise the BBC for actually using the extra disc space to bump up the bit rate. I can tell you that had this been produced in Hong Kong that they would have done exactly what you suggested - just used the same bit rate on episodes 10 and 11 as for the 3 episode discs.
I did think about what I’m saying. Like I said, if I wanted a higher bitrate, I would have gotten the HD version. If nine out of eleven episodes are acceptable at 2500MB for this version, then why shouldn’t the last two be as well?

Wouldn’t you nag if your baseball card or stamp collection were suddenly changed to a different background color/pattern 90% of the way through the set? Or if your 6" GI Joe/My Little Pony/etc. collection were suddenly changed to a 12" set? If you are creating a set/collection and figure out a way to make it better in the middle, then it is better to either scrap what you have and start over with the better method, or else finish in the original method and then create a new superior set. That’s already how it’s done with most things to force you to start over and spend more money.

[setarip_old]

I must say that, in light of your comments/concerns about finances, I'm rather surprised that you were willing to part with $55 purchase price...

[Synetech]

I must say that, in light of your comments/concerns about finances, I'm rather surprised that you were willing to part with $55 purchase price...
Have you not heard of birthdays? Besides, when you don’t waste money on junk, you can still afford the occasional nicety. And for the record, you can’t compare a $55 DVD (which you assumed that I bought new at full price) to a $5,000 HD system. Lots of people can afford the occasional sub-$100 gift but not a massive purchase.

[Southstorm]

There is a free version of DVD Rebuilder here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=75452

[Synetech]

There is a free version of DVD Rebuilder here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=75452

Thanks. The main DVDRb site is pretty messy and confusing. Plus, it only has 0.98.1.

Hmmm, that’s weird. When I do a search for DVDRb, I end up at http://dvd-rb.dvd2go.org/ which is the messy site with 0.98.1/1.26.1. The main/current site (http://www.jdobbs.net/) which has 0.98.2/1.27.3 is further down in the Google results.

[setarip_old]

And for the record, you can’t compare a $55 DVD (which you assumed that I bought new at full price) to a $5,000 HD system.Actually, I was comparing it to your stated unwillingnesss to use an additional blank DVD.(There was no discussion in this thread, that I know of, regarding a $5,000 HD system)

May I ask, how much did you pay for the set? (I actually paid considerably more than $55, when it was first released)

[Synetech]

Actually, I was comparing it to your stated unwillingnesss to use an additional blank DVD.
I have never liked leaving a non-rewritable disc with (any significant amount of) unused space, from the very first CD I ever burned. Plus, like I said, putting one on a blank would mean that I would have 2,2,2,1,1,2 which is inconsistent and grates my nerves (not to mention what I want to be an unnecessary disc-swap).


(There was no discussion in this thread, that I know of, regarding a $5,000 HD system)
That was more about “wasting the quality”. I cannot afford the luxury of an HD experience, I can only afford the content (like reading a tattered, used copy of a book and absorbing the story rather than buying an expensive, mint condition first-edition). That said, I want to make the most of what quality I have at my disposal while still trying to keep the viewing copy consistent (two per disc for seven discs).


May I ask, how much did you pay for the set? (I actually paid considerably more than $55, when it was first released)
I got it at a flea market for $30 CAD. He was asking for $45, but I bartered him down (quite a thrill actually). :cool:

[Synetech]

Alright, one more question so that I really understand the encoding.

If two similar (or even identical) titles, each 58 minutes are encoded differently, title A to 2500MB and title B to 3750MB, then what would be the best way to compress the two down to 4480MB so that you get both with as optimal a quality as possible? Would it be better to compress both to the same size (2240MB - title A at 89.6% and title B at 59.73%) or to compress them both proportionally to the same percentage (71.68% - title A at 1792MB and title B at 2688MB)?

In other words, if you encode a video at a higher bitrate, does that mean that more information can be discarded before it degrades to point X? It would seem logical to think so. Another example is with SuperBit titles. If you get the same movie in regular and SuperBit formats, shouldn’t you be able to transcode the SuperBit version down to the same size as the regular one without degradation (so that they look the same at the same size)?

[SuLyMaN]

I've successfully back uped those 5 DVDs using DVD RB and 4 pass encoding. The quality is crisp clear but such is the beauty of this jew of a DVD that I saved the original DVD9 isos (as backup)

[unrox]

Thanks. The main DVDRb site is pretty messy and confusing. Plus, it only has 0.98.1.

Hmmm, that’s weird. When I do a search for DVDRb, I end up at http://dvd-rb.dvd2go.org/ which is the messy site with 0.98.1/1.26.1. The main/current site (http://www.jdobbs.net/) which has 0.98.2/1.27.3 is further down in the Google results.
I am certainly not a Techie, but I find DVDrb very easy to use , I have had DvDrbPRO for about 1/1/2Yrs, granted it take somewhat longer but the results are hard to beat. BTW, it comes with 2 free encoders.I have several other programs some free some not ie.DVDFAB Platinum (also excellent,), DVD95COPY, none are as good as DVDrb, IMHO.The paid edition also has constant upgrades.

[Synetech]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have heard a lot about DVDRb and am trying it out (unfortunately when I did, the encoder crashed, so I’m trying to make sure it will work before waiting another two hours for nothing.)