Blu-ray: Is 480/576p Blu-ray compliant?

[moviefan]

Hey guys,

I plan to encode videos in SD resolution but with the intention to store them on BD-Rs at some point. When I searched the internet about Blu-ray specifications, I found out that Blu-ray seems to support 480/576i only. Is that true? Can I not author 480/576p material on a Blu-ray that can be played back on a SA player?

Thanks for replies!

[Pelican9]

Hey guys,

I plan to encode videos in SD resolution but with the intention to store them on BD-Rs at some point. When I searched the internet about Blu-ray specifications, I found out that Blu-ray seems to support 480/576i only. Is that true? Can I not author 480/576p material on a Blu-ray that can be played back on a SA player?

Thanks for replies!

The valid formats are:
480i, 576i, 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p

[Rodger]

It think he talks about resolutions like 480*576 or 480*480
Those Old SVCD resolution values.

THOSE ARE NOT SUPPORTED!
At least, if you are talking about standalone compatibility.
For PC only there is only the restriction of the multiple of 16 as much as I know.

[Pelican9]

It think he talks about resolutions like 480*576 or 480*480
Those Old SVCD resolution values.

THOSE ARE NOT SUPPORTED!
At least, if you are talking about standalone compatibility.
For PC only there is only the restriction of the multiple of 16 as much as I know.

I don't think that two BD standards exist, one for SA and one for PC...

[moviefan]

Pelican did get me right. I was talking about 720x576p and 720x480p respectively. So as long as they are supported, everything is OK :). Thanks for helping guys!

[Rodger]

Well....I can play cropped files on PC while PS3 and Players like my BD-P1400 don´t like the files!!!

That´s the current situation...maybe next generation players will be able to play that stuff...but for now we´ll have to stick to the full formats.

[moviefan]

So 576p is Blu-ray compliant. What is the max. number of reference frames for 576p material for Blu-ray compliancy and is there a limit for the number of B-frames?

[lazyn00b]

I've never seen 480p accepted as Primary Video Stream on Blu-Ray, only as Secondary (i.e. PIP).

[blizzbit]

Hm, so far I thought Blu-ray SD video is

720x480 @ 59.94i (DAR 4:3/16:9) or
720x576 @ 50i (DAR 4:3/16:9)

only, isn't it?

Take a look at the Public Specifications here (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13470/Section-13890/Index.html) (BD-J Baseline Application and Logical Model Definition for BD-ROM (March 2005 - PDF, Section 3.3, Video streams, Page 17/35).

Beyond that question what PAR Blu-ray SD video is?

Is it

12:11/10:11 (DAR 4:3 PAL/NTSC) or
16:11/40:33 (DAR 16:9 PAL/NTSC)

as most DVDs?


blizzbit

[moviefan]

So according to blu-raydisc.com, there is only 480/576i supported. I guess this website is a reliable source, isn't it?

[blizzbit]

So according to blu-raydisc.com, there is only 480/576i supported. I guess this website is a reliable source, isn't it?
Yep, it's the official web site of the Blu-ray Disc Association (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/index.html).


blizzbit

[moviefan]

That's crap! Who did exclude 576p from the Blu-Ray disc standard? What's wrong with progressive frames for that resolution? So I am not going to be able to encode SD PAL video with Blu-Ray compliancy with progressive frames... Any suggestions? There aren't many, are there?

[Trahald]

That's crap! Who did exclude 576p from the Blu-Ray disc standard? What's wrong with progressive frames for that resolution? So I am not going to be able to encode SD PAL video with Blu-Ray compliancy with progressive frames... Any suggestions? There aren't many, are there?

where does it say that?

[bigotti5]

720x480 @ 59.94i (DAR 4:3/16:9) or
720x576 @ 50i (DAR 4:3/16:9)
means 29.97/25 frames per second
this can be 23.976 pulldowned, 29.97 interlaced or 29.97 progressive frames (59.97 fields) respectively 25 frames (50 fields).

[lazyn00b]

720x480 @ 59.94i (DAR 4:3/16:9) or
720x576 @ 50i (DAR 4:3/16:9)
means 29.97/25 frames per second
this can be 23.976 pulldowned, 29.97 interlaced or 29.97 progressive frames (59.97 fields) respectively 25 frames (50 fields).

Scenarist HDMV won't accept pulldowned x264 because interlaced flag isn't set.

Any chance HRD-pulldown patch could be modified to do this?

[blizzbit]

Scenarist HDMV won't accept pulldowned x264 because interlaced flag isn't set.
Here the same.

Under these circumstances, what would you say is the most recommended way to convert DVD to Blu-ray compatible video?


blizzbit

[lazyn00b]

Here the same.

Under these circumstances, what would you say is the most recommended way to convert DVD to Blu-ray compatible video?


blizzbit

I just don't do it at this point :( If you don't mind sticking with MPEG-2, however, the HC encoder will produce Blu-Ray compliant output from a 480p source because it sets the interlace flag as well as applying pulldown flags.

[n0mag!c]

That's crap! Who did exclude 576p from the Blu-Ray disc standard? What's wrong with progressive frames for that resolution? So I am not going to be able to encode SD PAL video with Blu-Ray compliancy with progressive frames... Any suggestions? There aren't many, are there?
I took SD mpeg-2 video 720x576@25fps from DVD and made BluRay structure with TsMuxer, then burn it as AVC-HD (UDF2.50) on DVD+RW. Disk plays on PS3.

[WorBry]

I took SD mpeg-2 video 720x576@25fps from DVD and made BluRay structure with TsMuxer, then burn it as AVC-HD (UDF2.50) on DVD+RW...

I tried the same with an HDV-HD1 (MPEG2, MP@H-14, 720/576, 50p, 19.7Mbps) clip using a Blu-Ray authoring method described over in VideoHelp and the discs played OK on my DVD drive.

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic346069.html

My interest now is achieving the same with x264 converts:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1115161#post1115161

[moviefan]

720x480 @ 59.94i (DAR 4:3/16:9) or
720x576 @ 50i (DAR 4:3/16:9)
means 29.97/25 frames per second
this can be 23.976 pulldowned, 29.97 interlaced or 29.97 progressive frames (59.97 fields) respectively 25 frames (50 fields).

So you say, Blu-Ray specs support 720x576 @ 25p?

[bigotti5]

So you say, Blu-Ray specs support 720x576 @ 25p?
You have to note on the "progressive_sequence" flag.
"Progressive_sequence" flag in "sequence_extension" must not be set (at least for scenarist) to accept as primary video.
CCE, for example, never sets this flag, only progressive_frame flag is set. Clips with progressive_frame flags set are accepted as primary video.

[moviefan]

You have to note on the "progressive_sequence" flag.
"Progressive_sequence" flag in "sequence_extension" must not be set (at least for scenarist) to accept as primary video.
CCE, for example, never sets this flag, only progressive_frame flag is set. Clips with progressive_frame flags set are accepted as primary video.

So if I wanted to encode with x264 and make it Blu-Ray compliant, what settings do I need for the said resolution?

[Trahald]

bigotti5 is referring to mpeg2 .

for x264(AVC) as relates to bluray uses frame_mbs_only_flag to designate interlace/progressive .. 25fps must be interlaced for secondary video under 1080i primary... (which 25/29.97 would have to be flagged in bluray). for progressive primary you can use progressive secondary (1080/23.976 and all 720p)..

(for 480/576 streams) with x264 you have to use --interlace but no --pulldown if you are using 25fps or non-pulldown 29.97... For 23.976 you would use normal hrd (no --pulldown, no --interlace)
.. for 29.97 with pulldown.. ahhh.. not sure yet. since hrd patch was made with hddvd in mind which can use progressive flag for pulldown, a true pulldown stream for bluray cannot be made yet. having said that.. there is really no reason for the average person to make a secondary stream at 29.97 pulldown.. just use progressive 23.976 for your primary and secondary. and of course for true 29.97 you would use straight interlace for primary and secondary

[Video Dude]

720x480 @ 59.94i (DAR 4:3/16:9) or
720x576 @ 50i (DAR 4:3/16:9)
means 29.97/25 frames per second
this can be 23.976 pulldowned, 29.97 interlaced or 29.97 progressive frames (59.97 fields) respectively 25 frames (50 fields).
I was looking for that info. :thanks:


If I own a 4 disc dvd TV box set, can I demux the 720x480 mpeg-2 video and the ac3 audio and author it with blu-ray software to be burnt on a 25 or 50 GB blank BD disc with no re-encoding? Did anybody try to do this with a standalone player?

[moviefan]

bigotti5 is referring to mpeg2 .

for x264(AVC) as relates to bluray uses frame_mbs_only_flag to designate interlace/progressive .. 25fps must be interlaced for secondary video under 1080i primary... (which 25/29.97 would have to be flagged in bluray). for progressive primary you can use progressive secondary (1080/23.976 and all 720p)..

(for 480/576 streams) with x264 you have to use --interlace but no --pulldown if you are using 25fps or non-pulldown 29.97... For 23.976 you would use normal hrd (no --pulldown, no --interlace)
.. for 29.97 with pulldown.. ahhh.. not sure yet. since hrd patch was made with hddvd in mind which can use progressive flag for pulldown, a true pulldown stream for bluray cannot be made yet. having said that.. there is really no reason for the average person to make a secondary stream at 29.97 pulldown.. just use progressive 23.976 for your primary and secondary. and of course for true 29.97 you would use straight interlace for primary and secondary

Can you please explain this in a more easy way, so that a more or less beginner can understand, what you're talking about? Maybe explain only, how to get my 576p video encoded Blu-Ray compliant with x264 so that it has progressive frames. That would be awesome!

[WorBry]

Here are iso images of two test 720x576 x264 clips, one 50p and the other 25p, encoded with MeGUI using x264 ST-BluRay profile at 20mbps and 10mbps respectively, converted to Bluray format with TSMuxer and built with ImgBurn (UDF 2.5):

576/50p:
http://rs238.rapidshare.com/files/101299280/Test_720x576_50p_x264_ST-Bluray.iso

576/25p:
http://rapidshare.com/files/101305819/Test_720x576_25p_x264_ST-Bluray.iso

Would anyone care to burn them and see if they play on a Blu-Ray AVCHD standalone player?

[Trahald]

@WorBry

tsmuxer does no compliancy checking so it will let you do that. And it will probably play on a lot of players. but you basically have a 'X-Bluray' in effect. however if it plays on enough players then it will probably only matter to the individual.

[Trahald]

@moviefan
you would do your normal x264 line then add --aud --nal-hrd

thats it...

but you will only be able to mux with something that doesnt check for compliance .. like tsmuxer

[bigotti5]

If I own a 4 disc dvd TV box set, can I demux the 720x480 mpeg-2 video and the ac3 audio and author it with blu-ray software to be burnt on a 25 or 50 GB blank BD disc with no re-encoding? Did anybody try to do this with a standalone player?
Check your elementary streams for "progressive_sequence" flag in "sequence_extension", must not be set. If set remove it with e.g Restream.

http://members.aon.at/video.digital/p_seq.png

[moviefan]

@moviefan
but you will only be able to mux with something that doesnt check for compliance .. like tsmuxer

So is it completely Blu-Ray compliant or more or less semi-compliant?

[bond]

to sum the whole discussion up for me bluray only supports

720x480x59.94i (4:3/16:9)
720x576x50i (4:3/16:9)

which for me means it does NOT support 720x576x25p

this harms quality, i dont get the sense of this...

[bond]

i am cooling down again

does bluray allow PAFF interlacing with all frames being progressive?
like i wrote before (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96598)this would be then simply a matter of signalling
- setting frame_mbs_only_flag: 0 in the SPS and
- field_pic_flag: 0 on all frames (that are progressive) and
- never field_pic_flag: 1 as no frames are interlaced

i hope this is allowed in bluray, as it then would not require the streams to be encoded interlaced (it sounds very braindead as they could have allowed straight 25p in that case too)

[bigotti5]

does bluray allow PAFF interlacing with all frames being progressive?
Do you have a small sample for testing?

For MPEG2 streams only the "progressive_sequence" flag matters, stream itself can be encoded progressive.

[bond]

Do you have a small sample for testing?http://manao4.free.fr/interlaced-paff.264

[Rodger]

Just in case....my BD-P1400 is just playing 720*576*25 files NICE AND SMOOTH ;)

Source: MTV-Videos (DVB-S) > 544*576*25 reecoded to 576p 25fps.

[WorBry]

@WorBry
tsmuxer does no compliancy checking so it will let you do that. And it will probably play on a lot of players. but you basically have a 'X-Bluray' in effect. however if it plays on enough players then it will probably only matter to the individual.

OK, I see. In that case, are there any applications that can validate the 'standard' compatability of a blu-ray formatted file, such as that created by TSMuxer, or are there applications (other than Scenarist) out there that can format a Blu-ray structure with assured compatbility?

I see that the same restrictions on SD resolutions are also cited for HD-DVD:

http://www.videohelp.com/hd

How then is an HD (extension) MPEG2 format like HDV-H1 (as used in some JVC cams and provided as an HDV profile in TMPGenc 4.0 Xpress), which alows for 720x576 50p, accommodated by the Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD standards - assuming, of course, it is?

Unfortunately, Pegasus dont seem to have HD authoring program, as yet, to compliment their encoder.

Rodger, any chance you could burn the iso images I posted above (at least the 50p one) to see if they play on your BD-P1400? :)

[Rodger]

Rodger, any chance you could burn the iso images I posted above (at least the 50p one) to see if they play on your BD-P1400? :)

Workin´ on that ;)

Well seemingly the BD-P1400 eats everything...it doesn´t take Blu-Ray structure from CD....(yes with UDF 2.5). It has to be DVD-R (BD5) at least.

Will be back ASAP with results. I´ll use the very reliable Verbatim 6x DVD-RWs...

/EDIT: Told you so....eats everything :)
Both Images play fine on my Samsung BD-P1400
Even though I´d say the 50FPS played smoothers than the 25fps version. I´d put the origin of the video material to italy ;)

[WorBry]

Excellent, thanks so much for doing that

BTW-the source video content was actually a mix of short clips taken from some reference D1 720x576/50i YUV sequences which were bob-deinterlaced to 50p with MCBob. Excellent material for testing deinterlacers. For the 25p test I just selected every even frame, so the motion is less smooth; normally, for 25p conversions I apply some motion blur.

[bigotti5]

@bond
352x288 is not supported at all

[moviefan]

So concluding the test of some of you, can I say that Blu-Ray standard supports 720x576@25p H264 videos?

[Rodger]

I´m not from Blu-Ray association, but....

SAMSUNG BD-P1400 played 25fps Blu-Ray (BD5)
and also PowerDVD Ultra (7.3) played the same DVD-RW fine.

All my example music videos were played fine (8 examples)...so you can see...it´s reproduceable not a single wonder encode :devil:

[SeeMoreDigital]

The official Blu-ray specification lists the following: -

http://i28.tinypic.com/2s1olf6.png

Seems crazy that under SD video, speeds such as: 23.976p, 24.000p, 25.000p and 59.940p, are not listed!

[bond]

So concluding the test of some of you, can I say that Blu-Ray standard supports 720x576@25p H264 videos?as i see it, its not for sure now.
actually i really would assume it does, because it would be very strange if they exclude 25p, but still we dont know yet how such a 25p stream needs to look like in the header to be really bluray compliant (a player playing a potentially non-compliant stream is not a proove that the stream is compliant)


edit:
i guess we need to have a look at a professional bd5/9 video stream to check what the specs require (or read the specs themselves)

anyone having a sample of bd5/9 video stream created with a professional bluray authoring tool?

[Trahald]

i am cooling down again

does bluray allow PAFF interlacing with all frames being progressive?
like i wrote before (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96598)this would be then simply a matter of signalling
- setting frame_mbs_only_flag: 0 in the SPS and
- field_pic_flag: 0 on all frames (that are progressive) and
- never field_pic_flag: 1 as no frames are interlaced

i hope this is allowed in bluray, as it then would not require the streams to be encoded interlaced (it sounds very braindead as they could have allowed straight 25p in that case too)

that is what HD->BR does in h264info.
if( frame_mbs_only_flag ) {
frame_mbs_only_flag = 0 (cropping and pic height values also have to be halved)
}
field_pic_flag = 0
pic_order_present_flag = 0

and video is accepted by scenarist. reports so far as working well.

[Trahald]

as i see it, its not for sure now.
actually i really would assume it does, because it would be very strange if they exclude 25p, but still we dont know yet how such a 25p stream needs to look like in the header to be really bluray compliant (a player playing a potentially non-compliant stream is not a proove that the stream is compliant)


edit:
i guess we need to have a look at a professional bd5/9 video stream to check what the specs require (or read the specs themselves)

anyone having a sample of bd5/9 video stream created with a professional bluray authoring tool?

Ive looked at a pro stream (which is partially where i figured out what to change)... its flagged as interlace but all progressive pictures. (29.97)

its a 29.97 (pulldown) stream. but same concept as 25fps. remember 29.97 is supposed to be interlaced only too (at 1080 or 480) but all they do is flag frame_mbs_only_flag = 0 (interlaced) and set every picture to not field_pic.

doing it with 25fps should work if it works @ 29.97

[bond]

Ive looked at a pro stream (which is partially where i figured out what to change)... its flagged as interlace but all progressive pictures. (29.97)

its a 29.97 (pulldown) stream. but same concept as 25fps. remember 29.97 is supposed to be interlaced only too (at 1080 or 480) but all they do is flag frame_mbs_only_flag = 0 (interlaced) and set every picture to not field_pic.

doing it with 25fps should work if it works @ 29.97interesting, can you send me such a sample (pm if you want)? do you maybe also have a 25fps one?

[Trahald]

i dont think we will find anything. Most companies will just make progressive sources interlaced to keep in the spec or make it 720p. I wonder what the thought was behind not supporting 1080/25p.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I wonder what the thought was behind not supporting 1080/25p.I wondered that too :eek:

It would seem the HD-DVD spec was a more open: -

http://i25.tinypic.com/vfz9fl.png


Cheers

[Inventive Software]

Gee, that HD-DVD player's looking more inviting....

[blizzbit]

Hmmm, and how about the profile?

Has Blu-Ray SD video to be encoded with main profile?
(MPEG-4 AVC: HP@4.1/4.0 and MP@4.1/4.0/3.2/3.1/3.0)

Or can I use level 4.x for (anamorphic) Blu-Ray SD encoding?