How is current research on BD+?

[NeonMan]

Hi!

Hearing the latest news BR might win the format war against HD DVD.
THat means that not only AACS has to be defeated but also the BD+ so, what is the current state on BD+ cracking? there are any official/unofficial specs of the scheme?

Both of the DRM's will be cracked sure (inherently unsafe (http://www.eff.org/wp/digital-rights-management-failure-developed-world-danger-developing-world)) but I just want to know it's current state.

[Dark Shikari]

I have heard rumors that it has already been cracked, but that the break is being kept private primarily because the crackers want all the BD+-supporting hardware to be on the market before they release the break (because otherwise Sony could easily change the standard to fix the vulnerability).

Just rumors though.

[Doobie]

what is the current state on BD+ cracking?

Not even close to being cracked.

[Adub]

I thought AnyDVD was working on a solution. It may not be done, but they are supposed to be working on it. One of them frequents the forum, so maybe we will get some more info directly from the source.

[Dark Shikari]

I thought AnyDVD was working on a solution. It may not be done, but they are supposed to be working on it. One of them frequents the forum, so maybe we will get some more info directly from the source.They've said they've been nearly there... for months. If there's a break, it'll likely be from the underground, not AnyDVD.

[Doom9]

Actually it's Slysoft (who have a product called AnyDVD) and up until the point that somebody actually has a BD+ disc on their HD in unprotected form, consider it uncracked.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

What exactly is the problem with the BD+ protection? I know BD+ will run "spy" software, which is included on the disc. That software will run inside a Java VM provided by the player. Basically the software can do whatever it wants. Scan the system for "blacklisted" software, scan the player for "unauthorized" modifications, scan the bitstream from the disc for "abnormal" things and so. Once the spy software detects a "violation", it will stop the playback or maybe blow up your PC. But why not simply kill the execution of the spy software before it can do any harm? Or completely remove the BD+ stuff from the disc, just like discs that didn't include BD+ code? Is the continuous execution of the BD+ software required for proper playback? And if so, why is that? Or is it simply the player that won't let you kill the BD+ software that easy (but it could be done)? And, last question: How does BD+ prevent one from decrypting the disc (apart from AACS) ???

[Doom9]

BD+ is another layer of security.. even if you get rid of AACS unless you take care of BD+ the disc is still encrypted... and unlike AACS, BD+ is per disc, not per key generation.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

BD+ is another layer of security.. even if you get rid of AACS unless you take care of BD+ the disc is still encrypted... and unlike AACS, BD+ is per disc, not per key generation.
So that means BD+ infected discs are in fact "double encrypted", where the first encryption is the well-known AACS and the second one is some "super secret" encryption method that can vary from disc to disc and that can only be decrypted by the "magic" BD+ code found on the very same disc?

[Peer van Heuen]

They've said they've been nearly there... for months. If there's a break, it'll likely be from the underground, not AnyDVD.

Our original schedule last year was based on a first analysis of BD+ with what information was available at the time.
But I do admit, that the announcement, that we should have it cracked by the end of the year (2007) was a little too optimistic.

Anyway - due to several time consuming developments we had not considered then like MKB4 support and the AI scanner, the work on BD+ actually only really started early January 2008.
Sometimes you just don't have the time you wish you had... sorry for those waiting.

So far we did manage to remove BD+ from certain BD+ protected discs, but the process is not yet fully automated and therefore not suitable for release.

It is difficult to get behind all the secrets behind BD+ by just looking at disassembly code - current versions of PowerDVD come with a very high level of obfuscation, so only the very few other players qualify for "studies".

Concernig the "underground", you have so dramatically titled :) - I would happily read some news about any progress they are making, whether it is about MKB4 or BD+.
I wouldn't mind the focus on us being shared with others again for a change, it's lonely up here... ;)
(just being provocative - :D Wake up "underground" !)

[Peer van Heuen]

So that means BD+ infected discs are in fact "double encrypted", where the first encryption is the well-known AACS and the second one is some "super secret" encryption method that can vary from disc to disc and that can only be decrypted by the "magic" BD+ code found on the very same disc?

Yes (...and since this forum will not allow me to give a three letter answer, I'll add: BD+ infected discs are in fact "double encrypted" - well encryption is not the precise term for the BD+ modifications, but it's similar to that)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

I see. So it's all about reverse engineering the BD+ code in order to extract the decryption algorithm as well as the hardcoded keys.

And that on every single disc...

[Peer van Heuen]

I see. So it's all about reverse engineering the BD+ code in order to extract the decryption algorithm as well as the hardcoded keys.

And that on every single disc...

Do you have to download an update for WinDVD HD every time you insert a new disc? ;)

[Dark Shikari]

Concernig the "underground", you have so dramatically titled :) - I would happily read some news about any progress they are making, whether it is about MKB4 or BD+.
I wouldn't mind the focus on us being shared with others again for a change, it's lonely up here... ;)
(just being provocative - :D Wake up "underground" !)One problem with the "underground" is the element of competition; I'll take Starforce as an example. One group actually actively helped patch holes in Starforce to ensure that they were the only group who could break it!

Its quite possible that a major group has BD+ cracked and is literally keeping it to themselves out of selfishness.

[Doom9]

Its quite possible that a major group has BD+ cracked and is literally keeping it to themselves out of selfishness.You'd see scene released for those movies though - after all that's the only way to prove that you can do it.

@Peer: would it help if I offered a bottle of Dom for a working crack? ;) Since celebrating HD DVD's victory didn't work out I have to look for alternative things to celebrate..

[Dark Shikari]

You'd see scene released for those movies though - after all that's the only way to prove that you can do it.Untrue. As far as I know, there are already people ripping BD+ in the not-very-secret "rip the frames directly as they come out of the video card" manner.

[Shinigami-Sama]

I'm quite certain theres scene releases somewhere for all the new releases, just a matter of getting to them

[Peer van Heuen]

@Peer: would it help if I offered a bottle of Dom for a working crack? ;) Since celebrating HD DVD's victory didn't work out I have to look for alternative things to celebrate..

Well, I'm not sure, a Bottle of Dom will be much of a brain booster - usually these things have quite an opposite effect on my efficiency :)
We're all pissed with HD-DVD going down but nevertheless, I think we'll have reason to celebrate despite this development ;)

[NeonMan]

Well first of all sorry for not replying earlyer.

I thought from what i've read that the BD+ is far from being the crypto-nightmare AACS is but rather a keyless custom security-trough-obscurity algorithm.

That software will run inside a Java VM provided by the player.
Would it be feasible to extract a 'classpath' from a hardware/software player? if so, there's no safe way for the BD+ to check the system

"super secret" encryption method
If so, it is flawed by design (Remember, CSS, Clipper, ...). They're basically Snake oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil_(cryptography)).

[MfA]

I see. So it's all about reverse engineering the BD+ code in order to extract the decryption algorithm as well as the hardcoded keys.

And that on every single disc...
AFAICS the actual VM is present in the software players, if you can sandbox it it will work with all the discs up to that point.

[Peer van Heuen]

That software will run inside a Java VM provided by the player.


Would it be feasible to extract a 'classpath' from a hardware/software player? if so, there's no safe way for the BD+ to check the system


BD+ is NOT based on Java. It is not, not, not, not, not :)

This is one of the most persistent rumors.

AFAICS the actual VM is present in the software players, if you can sandbox it it will work with all the discs up to that point.

You mean "extract" the VM from the player and make it "your slave"?

[NeonMan]

As far as I know, the BD-VM (or whatever it is called) can't be updated so if you extract a working VM it would be functional for new and old disks

BD-VM ≠ JVM

What kind of VM is BD-VM then?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

BD+ is NOT based on Java. It is not, not, not, not, not :)
Hehe, understood :cool:

As far as I know, the BD-VM (or whatever it is called) can't be updated so if you extract a working VM it would be functional for new and old disks
I guess this isn't 100% true. Even if you manage to "extract" a working VM and it really works with all current discs, then THEY will simply put "updated" software on the new discs. That new software will most likely add new checks, so it will be able to distinguish your "faked" VM from an "original" one and deny to work. So once again you will have to "extract" a new VM. That game can be continued until forever...

What kind of VM is BD-VM then?
I guess it's some proprietary one and they keep all the specs in secret. Security through obscurity :rolleyes:

[Adub]

Well, I'm not sure, a Bottle of Dom will be much of a brain booster - usually these things have quite an opposite effect on my efficiency :)
We're all pissed with HD-DVD going down but nevertheless, I think we'll have reason to celebrate despite this development ;)

Well then, how about a bottle of Vinpocetine, Oxyracetam, Adrafinil, Power Drive, and Spike? That combo alone should make you a genius, if only for limited bursts of time.

[Guest]

Please take chat to PM. Thank you.

[Morbo]

I guess someone is gonna have to gut a BR player for some chips every release cycle for some keys,if I had to guess the future(and since service manuals exists for all things,this could be done).

Can't tell me the irony wouldn't be sweet if PS3s would be the key to getting the goods on them blue suckers...."I need the 80 gig version cause the 40 won't hold a whole disc!"....rflol..:p

[Shinigami-Sama]

Can't tell me the irony wouldn't be sweet if PS3s would be the key to getting the goods on them blue suckers...."I need the 80 gig version cause the 40 won't hold a whole disc!"....rflol..:p

actually that there is pretty funny, especially considering we have drives that hold 25x that much now...


also
I'm betting that the ps3 linux distros are eventually going to find those secret spots were the AACS BS is kept soon enough