Why side with HD-DVD?

[resonator]

Hey!

I've been registered here (and been reading) for years now, and I rarely ever comment, but I just can't get my head around the fact that so many guys around here including doom9 himself side with HD-DVD. I own a Toshiba notebook with a built-in HD drive and I own a few discs, but even I can see that it just doesn't matter what format wins as long as ONE DOES win. All the disadvantages for (let's call them) fair use people will be gone soon as far as I can tell, copy protection is already broken and region codes will most likely be a non-issue as soon as cheap chinese players hit the market. So what's the point? Both camps have companies on their side that are, to say the least, "unpleasant", like Sony or Microsoft.

This is a serious question, what's the point in supporting HD-DVD?

[Doom9]

Most of what I wrote back in August 07 (http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/no_choice.htm) still applies today.

And you are very much mistaken on the copy protection angle.. no recent Fox disc can be backed up in a meaningful way (the BD+ without AACS playback hole has long since been plugged and since a BD-R 50 costs at least as much as the original movie, even if you have an unplugged standalone it makes more sense to buy a second copy of the movie ).

[Inventive Software]

It has the better fair use agreements:

No region coding, which bastardised the DVD format and has made its way to Blu-Ray, and is probably the most influential reason behind most of the big studios jumping ship.

It's cheaper to mass-produce. Blu-Ray requires a whole different kind of machine to press discs, HD-DVD can be pressed on DVD pressers with a few adjustments.

Less copy-protection, it has just AACS, and even that's optional, which makes it more attractive to the independent studios. Blu-Ray has region-coding, and mandatory AACS, and BD+, which is a Virtual Machine that checks the playback device and decides whether it wants to let you watch your $30 HD movie that you've just purchased, that slows down the players to the point that it becomes less attractive to watch a movie in High Definition.

It's cheaper to include it in PCs and laptops. I've not seen any Blu-Ray laptops, they've all been HD-DVD. The vast majority of HD enabled laptops are HD-DVD.

Players and drives are cheaper to produce, therefore cheaper for the consumer. $99 for a 2nd-gen HD-DVD player? $149 for a 3rd-gen player? How about $299 for a 2nd-gen Blu-Ray player, and $199 for a 3rd-gen player? But these aren't fully profile-compatible and future-proof. No, for that you need the PS3, which is $399 for the basic job, and unlikely to come down in price because it's so expensive to produce. Plus, these HD players upscale your precious (not to mention, according to both sides of execs but especially the Blu-Ray camp, out-dated) DVD collection so your fancy HDTV can show these wonderful movies.

And you can ignore the capacity reason (HD-DVD dual-layers are 30 GB to Blu-Rays 50 GB dual-layer) that's touted by nearly all the Blu-Ray fanboys. HD-DVD have a 51 GB tri-layer disc in the manufacturing pipeline. The quality issue Blu-Ray fanboys go on about is non-existant because it's the software or hardware that you use to encode the movie, not the bandwidth. The quality of HD x264 encodes on this forum alone justify using that and contributing to its source code for the features it doesn't have that you need than spending $10000 on an encoder that takes twice as long and has a crap output on it.


That's the most obvious set of reasons, and somebody with more time than me can find the links to back them up.

In all honesty, it's cheaper to watch it at the cinema, which is a shame. :(

[Shakey_Jake33]

Less copy-protection, just AACS. Blu-Ray has region-coding, and BD+, which is a Virtual Machine that checks the playback device and decides whether it wants to let you watch your $30 HD movie that you've just purchased, that slows down the players to the point that it becomes less attractive to watch a movie in High Definition.
See, this is the only pro-HD-DVD arguement I've always had trouble agreeing with. It paints Toshiba as pro-consumer martyrs by not including BD+, but the reality is they're as anti-fair use as the rest of them, hence the inclusion of AACS. If HD-DVD had no copy protection at all, then I could agree, but the fact is they're still 100% about restricting copying, that's why AACS exists, and why they keep updating it.

I agree the lack of BD+ is a useful bonus (until BD+ is fully defeated), but Toshiba don't deserve the martyr credit they get for that.

[communist]

It's cheaper to include it in PCs and laptops. I've not seen any Blu-Ray laptops, they've all been HD-DVD. The vast majority of HD enabled laptops are HD-DVD.
Really? You havent at least seen or heard about Sony's Vaio line of notebooks from which some come with a BR drive?

IIRC cost point is also not relevant anymore as they (discs/players) are equivalently cheap to produce. Its just that Toshiba kept lowering prices to fight the BR-camp.

[Mug Funky]

i suppose it doesn't matter anymore, but my main reason for siding with HD-DVD was that it required a simple upgrade of existing DVD replicating machines to be able to press HD discs, whereas blu-ray required completely new machines.

what this means? HD-DVD gear could still press DVDs, and hence DVD releases would have better physical quality due to the tighter tolerances involved in HD-DVD.

i've seen enough replication faults to know that alone was a good reason to back HD-DVD.

that and porn :)

[Doom9]

You havent at least seen or heard about Sony's Vaio line of notebooks from which some come with a BR drive?Did you note that those need a special form factor due to the drive's size?

Only a few months ago, Blu-ray drives finally became available in the standard notebook form factor (e.g. something like this (http://cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=22404))

Needless to say that a special form factor means additional cost.

And Mug Funky brings up a good point from a point that is often ignored since users don't get to see it. If you follow the insider thread at AVS, you'll see that replication is a major problem for Blu-ray (yes, even today).. those prices that were published quite a while back actually include Sony's subsidies for the format, and even as late as last fall, failure rates were around 1 out of 3 for Blu-ray discs (I could be off with the percentages), and I think somebody mentioned that without subsidies a BD-50 disc currently costs $4 to replicate (compared to less than $2 for a HD DVD-30, which on top of that can be replicated with a 95%+ success rate and in less time).

At some point Sony's subsidies to major studios will run out (ever wondered why smaller studios sided mostly with HD DVD? They don't get any subsidies and have to pay the full price, plus with HD DVD they had the option to leave out AACS which can further bring down costs) - can anybody be certain that at that point studios won't suddenly face a significantly higher replication cost, which then translates into either a lower margin for them, or a high price for consumers?

So, in the end, wouldn't you like to have cheap players AND discs (especially the latter since you will spend a lot more on discs than on the player) ? I've been around when DVD was started, and did quite a bit of shopping at Amazon (initially, I had hardly any Region 2 DVDs and even today I have more Region 1 than Region 2 discs), and the massive discounts we saw during the past year were something new to me entirely (especially early in a format's lifetime).. when the competition goes, so goes the pressure for lower prices - and it's anybody's guess if studios really aim to replace DVDs within a few years or if they settle on high def as a value added product with a hefty markup.

And, BD-J, due to its complexity, means higher production cost as well.. sum this all up and ask yourself which format has the better chance of standing a good chance of replacing DVD within the next few years.

[Sharktooth]

AACS on HD-DVD was a sort or "requisite". The movie industry will never accept a non-protected format. AACS was the new toy and it had to be included in the format (but it's not mandatory in HD-DVDs)... otherwise, no support from "the jackals"...
however, at this point i only hope HD biz falls into misery and the movie industry (expecially Sony) will burn to the ground wasting their money on the HD failure...

[LoRd_MuldeR]

however, at this point i only hope HD biz falls into misery and the movie industry (expecially Sony) will burn to the ground wasting their money on the HD failure...

So that M$ will control the HD market with their planned Video on Demand service?
Not really a better solution for the customer.

Also I think HD cannot be stopped at this point. All those people want food for their monstrous HD screens ;)
No matter which consortium controls the HD market...

[Sharktooth]

M$ is far away from controlling the HD market.
However VoD is the key. It's cheap (with ADSL2+ HD is accessible to everyone) and it (re)uses the already available tech.
with an internet connection you can make worldwide telephone calls (VoIP), watch and record movies/TV/cable and sat channels (even in HD) on your PC or using an appropriate ethernet decoder (like the FastWeb Videostation) and obviously surf the web...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hmm...

I dare say it wont be long before we could conceivably see cost effective 30-50GB "solid-state" read-only memory cards. Thus making any high-def "spinning disc" format redundant :eek:

[laserfan]

...even I can see that it just doesn't matter what format wins as long as ONE DOES win.But resonator I would take the opposing view: that having more than one "standard" is GOOD. That the Competition that results is good for consumers, good for the marketplace. Can you even imagine how expensive BD players and discs would be if HD DVD had not existed? And they're STILL crap from a performance/updates POV--what incentive would they have to fix the problems if HD DVD weren't around?

People seem to want one standard, but there are "multiple standards" for everything (think about plumbing pipe for example, there must be 5 or 6 different standards to choose from) why not HD DVD? Yeah I know, the studios only want to publish in one format. That's why I've thought combo discs were the ultimate winner--both SD and HD DVD in the same package.

One wonders if the studios attracted to BD are doing so because they think BD will win in the copy-protection area. If that's the case I think that'll be proven to be a wild-goose-chase.

Does anyone have any predictions as to when BD junk will finally work reliably BTW? :o

[foxyshadis]

Well, we may as well discuss the merits of Betamax over VHS. The fat lady's sung, all that's left is to try to find some hole in the specs that allows non-AACS Bluray discs, for budget and home users, and of course wait for a full leak and break of BD+ (involving running the entire virtual machine - slow as hell, probably).

Maybe HD-DVD will find a niche as a SVCD-style compatible format, so that we can keep using it in bluray players if we want, but there likely won't be many more commercial releases in it, nor will the 51GB format likely ever surface.

[Schrade]

No region coding, which bastardised the DVD format and has made its way to Blu-Ray, and is probably the most influential reason behind most of the big studios jumping ship.

Is that actually specified in the spec? As in you cannot use region coding? Because from what I remember reading over at AVSForum, the insiders said that region coding IS there, they just haven't required its use yet. And emphasis was put on yet.

Anyhow, lots of Blu-Ray movies don't have region coding. You can see what movies do and don't have region coding here:

http://bluray.liesinc.net/

Even some Sony releases are region free ;)

Players and drives are cheaper to produce, therefore cheaper for the consumer. $99 for a 2nd-gen HD-DVD player? $149 for a 3rd-gen player? How about $299 for a 2nd-gen Blu-Ray player, and $199 for a 3rd-gen player? But these aren't fully profile-compatible and future-proof. No, for that you need the PS3, which is $399 for the basic job, and unlikely to come down in price because it's so expensive to produce. Plus, these HD players upscale your precious (not to mention, according to both sides of execs but especially the Blu-Ray camp, out-dated) DVD collection so your fancy HDTV can show these wonderful movies.
They're cheaper to produce AT THIS MOMENT. Things will get cheaper. They always do. DVD never had a problem getting cheaper when it was the only format around. All technology gets cheaper and cheaper. It's inevitable. Hell, Blu-Ray and HD DVD movies already have been selling for less than what original DVD movies were.

The PS3 price is coming down as well. It's a gaming console. All gaming consoles come down in price as quickly as they can. The less the price of a gaming console the more the market will buy it. The PS3 will be having more price drops in the coming years. It's inevitable as well. To say it won't is just foolish.

Also, the PS3 is arguably one of the better DVD upscalers out there. It's definitely better than the Xbox 360's scaling. Hey, it's also a media center - imagine that! You can store your encoded movies on the hard drive that comes standard with every PS3 and it's just a standard SATA laptop drive that you can upgrade whenever you want. And if you don't want to upgrade it you can just use external USB hard drives. The PS3 is pretty nice for us video encoding folks.

While Blu-Ray isn't everything that we open source and restriction-free standards advocates want, it certainly isn't as bad as many people paint it.

We all think Sony's meddling with DRM is a bad thing. Hopefully they'll grow up and get over it. They already had to get over it with music. Maybe video will be next to come.

[Sharktooth]

bull$hit. we all know it's not regional coding the real problem.
Sony's proprietary crap is becoming a new standard and Sony is one of the majors in the movie industry...
Can you spot the connection? They're trying to lock the consumer down to their interests...

[laserfan]

Well, we may as well discuss the merits of Betamax over VHS. The fat lady's sung...What opera are you listening to? It's still all rumor and conjecture that Toshiba itself is throwing-in the towel, but they haven't (just) yet.

Maybe they're waiting 'til Bill Gates gets-in to his office to discuss it with him first... :p

[Schrade]

bull$hit. we all know it's not regional coding the real problem.
Yes but as you can see, people point to it as a problem when it really isn't as big of a problem as many seem to think.

Sony's proprietary crap is becoming a new standard and Sony is one of the majors in the movie industry...
Can you spot the connection? They're trying to lock the consumer down to their interests...
Was Sony the full designer and manufacturer of the Blu-Ray standard and its specs?

[Sharktooth]

99% sony, 1% the rest of BDA...

[Schrade]

99% sony, 1% the rest of BDA...
Can you point me to where you got this info from? I want to read about what companies were involved from the beginning in the whole process.

[Doom9]

Hey, it's also a media center - imagine that! You can store your encoded movies on the hard drive that comes standard with every PS3 and it's just a standard SATA laptop drive that you can upgrade whenever you want.My $179 Popcorn Hour whoops the floor with anything that has a Sony or Microsoft logo on it ;) That should come as no surprise, since neither company is known for making products that customers demand but rather trying to force them onto something they can make a lot of money off. If you're in the market for a high def streaming device, there's no gaming console that will ever fit the bill.
Looking at how these devices (as well as the PSP) have evolved over time in terms of allowing people to do more (the hardware power is there.. it's only a matter of exposing it), shows only contempt for alternative use. How long did it take again until these consoles played DivX and XviD? I've had an elta player which handled both formats years ago. Just imagine what you could do with an Xbox 360 or a PS3 if MS/Sony fully exposed their hardware and wouldn't try at each turn to throw wrenches into the wheels of third party developers.

Was Sony the full designer and manufacturer of the Blu-Ray standard and its specs?Some people at AVS claim that Panasonic was the main driver behind the physical specs - that has me a bit wondering though since I recall that it was Sony that presented the 25GB optical disc for data storage back in 1999. Either way it would be nice to see how patents and royalties are really distributed and who gets how much per disc/player sold.

Looking at how many players are out there, the percentage that has a Sony logo on it is staggering though so it shouldn't come as a surprise that Blu-ray is closely associated with Sony. If you look at the playing field 1.5 years into the launch of DVD, the playing field was a lot more leveled.

[foxyshadis]

What opera are you listening to? It's still all rumor and conjecture that Toshiba itself is throwing-in the towel, but they haven't (just) yet.

Maybe they're waiting 'til Bill Gates gets-in to his office to discuss it with him first... :p

The sales collapse following the warner defection, and the recent shift of major retailers & netflix to bluray exclusivity. It'll take weeks or months to filter out all of the HD-DVD titles, but if they don't order more, the format is finished commercially.

[CRUSHPROOFBOX]

In essence, Bluray is just a storage medium, you can still put an hd-dvd on it using either spec. If Toshiba had a brain they would have used Bluray media and come out with a firmware upgradeable player that could play both specs. The HD-DVD spec is eaiser to work with (I've already made backups with my own menus) and standardized before players were released.

[laserfan]

The sales collapse following the warner defection, and the recent shift of major retailers & netflix to bluray exclusivity. It'll take weeks or months to filter out all of the HD-DVD titles, but if they don't order more, the format is finished commercially.You said: "the fat lady has sung" which if English is not your first language means "it's formally over". It's not, Toshiba has not (yet) conceded despite what the rumour-mongerers continue to blather...

[foxyshadis]

You said: "the fat lady has sung" which if English is not your first language means "it's formally over". It's not, Toshiba has not (yet) conceded despite what the rumour-mongerers continue to blather...

Well, if HD-DVD pulls out of this, I'll put a few on a Dodgers pennant this year.

[Shakey_Jake33]

In fairness, I don't think it's unfair to say that believing HD-DVD still has a future is denial more than anything else, regardless of the fact that Toshiba has yet to go official.

Do duplication failure rates and the like really matter to us, the consumer? Good point made about DVD duplication quality being improved thanks to the tighter HD-DVD duplication stuff, but past that, I'm not sure I see the importance to the consumer. Certainly from what I've seen, HD-DVD's have been a similar price to Blu-Ray, and not far off what DVD's cost in the early days (~£20 approx?).

A single format makes things simpler, but I do think we should remember that if it were not for HD-DVD being perceived as the higher quality format at the beginning, we would not have seen the shift from BD25 Mpeg2's to BD50 AVC's so quickly.

Whatever the case, it's pretty clear where the future lies right now, hopefully stuff like BD+ will become as trivial as CSS one day, region coding also, and we can continue as normal.

[Sharktooth]

25gigz or even 15gigz are more than enough for HD movies. just use advanced codecs like h.264 for video instead of the old-ass MPEG-2 like sony did... it's already in the standard.

[Mug Funky]

@ Shakey_Jake33:

my point was more that if HD-DVD took off, regular DVDs would be better quality. this does make a subtle difference to the consumer - less need to return defective discs. personally i'm not bothering with HD for a long time yet - too expensive, not enough return for the money. all you see is 2% more edges and a buttload more grain. very rarely anything that makes it worth paying through the nose for.

[Hard Core Rikki]

as storage mediums, either of these formats seem handy enough to have.
you'd have thought the less anticonsumer format would survive at least through people's preference.
it mightve lost hollywood, but it sure remains as attractive as before, for the general mass (though people would be expected to use "the industry's choice", at least if dualformat drives are out of the picture, in respect to which hd-dvd continued presence as a file storage medium could be compromised even further)

[Shinigami-Sama]

I am a huge fan of HD
however
I do agree with mug, its not worth it yet, I'll stick with HDTV and not HD movies, they are still way unfriendly and pricey
they really need to get their priorities straight...

[Shakey_Jake33]

25gigz or even 15gigz are more than enough for HD movies. just use advanced codecs like h.264 for video instead of the old-ass MPEG-2 like sony did... it's already in the standard.
Well, my point was that it forced Sony et al to up the ante and put some effort it, which probably would not have happened if HD-DVD hadn't lead the way for quality early on.

Over time, I have come to agree with Mug also. I have both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray Players and got swept up with all the hype, but have bought less and less as the novelty began to wear off. If I buy anything new, it'll be in HD, but I've gone past the phase where I want anything and everything - that's just what the execs want after all.

[resonator]

What an interesting discussion this is.

I think I am a very postively thinking person, so I don't think that BD+ will be a problem for long. I know it'll be a lot of work to crack it and it may take some time, but as long as there is some barrier to break, some riddle to crack, someone out there will always try to do it, it's just human nature I guess. See pretty much all major scientific discoveries to see what I mean.

As far as costs are concerned, well, I don't think prices will ultimatly be higher for consumers as some suggested, initially maybe but not in the long run. I think it'll be exactly the same as it was with DVDs to be honest. Anyway, the reason why I said that I think it's important for ONE format to win is that with the advent of movie rentals on iTunes we're on the verge of the age of online distribution, so if you (like me) actually DON'T wanna spend your money on a (DRM-infested) non-physical media you'll have to have one format. I buy CDs and don't download from any online retailers, I buy DVDs and will, for now, not "rent" from iTunes, I want my physical media that'll last me for at least 10-15 years, you know what I mean?

Again, really interesting topic. And refreshingly flame-free. ;)

[Doom9]

Do duplication failure rates and the like really matter to us, the consumer? Good point made about DVD duplication quality being improved thanks to the tighter HD-DVD duplication stuff, but past that, I'm not sure I see the importance to the consumer. Certainly from what I've seen, HD-DVD's have been a similar price to Blu-Ray, and not far off what DVD's cost in the early days (~£20 approx?).That's correct but you must've missed the point about Blu-ray production being heavily subsidized.. even though we're nearing 2 years, failure rates and cost are still high - but Sony eats up that cost, for now. Take away those subsidies and studios either face lower margins making production less interesting for them, or the consumer has to pay the difference - making high def purchases less interesting for him/her.

all you see is 2% more edges and a buttload more grain.I think I see more than 2% more edges, but true on the grain - especially when the Blu-ray camp turns off the preprocessing filter in AVC. Even critically acclaimed titles are often very grainy during dark shots - I wonder when directors wake up and stop ruining movies by adding grain (just goes to show that even though they claim they know everything - Michael Bay are you listening? - they don't really understand the effect directoral choices have on the output for your home entertainment system).

[Shinigami-Sama]

(just goes to show that even though they claim they know everything - Michael Bay are you listening? - they don't really understand the effect directoral choices have on the output for your home entertainment system).

they never will; they still remember 'the good old days' when everyone used to go the movies at least every two months...

and even now some blu-ray discs appear to have out of range motion vectors in their AVC(coreAVC thread), so even after 2 years they still can't get it right

[communist]

Its official:
Toshiba Announces Discontinuation of HD DVD Businesses
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2008_02/pr1903.htm

[microchip8]

on CNN too

TOKYO, Japan (CNN) -- Toshiba said Tuesday it will no longer manufacture HD DVDs, effectively ending the long-running battle with the rival Blu-ray for a dominant high-definition format.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/BUSINESS/02/19/toshiba.hdd/index.html

[SeeMoreDigital]

Bummer!

[laserfan]

Bummer!Yes, it's one thing to consider the millions & millions spent on the technology, but more still when you look at the human capital/energy put-in to the product itself, and the marketing of it.

Having witnessed the birth (and death) of laserdisc, and also the initial growing pains of SD DVD (remember all the "artifacts!" discussions), I've been only impressed by the quality of HD DVD packaging and product (video/audio).

Looks like it's now relegated to a Hobbyist medium--some folks are gonna make their own HD DVDs for a long time I think.

Glad I bought an XA2 though--one of the best upconverting players ever.

[laserfan]

Another thing that boggles the mind: how can Toshiba be so stupid as to simply bail-out on HD DVD when such a monstrous investment has been made? I mean, there is an installed base of players and XBox add-ons, and some not-insignificant number of movies in distribution and in-process.

What they SHOULD HAVE done, rather than turn-tail & run, is to negotiate the turnover of mfr rights to someone else that might think the base is worth pursuing. Someone said somewhere that JVC won the VHS-Beta "war" but never achieved market dominance or even became a very large company for it.

Just surprised here that Toshiba hasn't done anything like peddle the business to another company that might welcome/revel in a market the size of HD DVD.

[shevegen]

So what's the point? Both camps have companies on their side that are, to say the least, "unpleasant", like Sony or Microsoft.

This is a serious question, what's the point in supporting HD-DVD?

I agree insofar that my question would be - why side with either camp at all?

I am living without either camp, and happily everso. I think customers are fooled and should stop accepting anything what the big companies offer in the public relation section. If companies like Sony and others can go away with a rootkit easily then why should they believe what they say? And even more importantly, why buy something (if you yourself are not 100% sure that you need it anyway).

Its ok to spend money on things, it is just the question spending your money where, and I myself answered this question long ago after realizing that DVDs suck due to various reasons, not the least being that my DVDs here basically die rather quickly.

[WalterK]

You can only stay out of the Blu-Ray camp for so long :)
They will now force feed the format to us, claim dvd is dead and you need a blu-ray player to either upconvert , or rebuy your whole movie library in hidef format.
Its a shame Hd-Dvd was the better product for consumers as all the previously listed reasons gave.
But Sony bribed and bullied their way to the top this time around, i am not saying the Toshiba coalition was blameless either they did the same but Sony had more money :)
Plus as a non windows user some Hd-dvd commercial discs could be played back on a non windows OS with a little tweaking.
Not so with Blu-Ray discs.
Going to be a long while before thats possible.

[Die*wrek*show]

I think it's funny how people allow themselves to be put in these tiny boxes, then act surprised when they can't get out.

You can only stay out of the Blu-Ray camp for so long

If I want something, and I give you two options that are both going to get me what I want then it's a win-win situation for me and a lose-lose situation for you if I can get you to believe you must choose one of the two.

du·al·ism /ˈduəˌlɪzəm, ˈdyu-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[doo-uh-liz-uhm, dyoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the state of being dual or consisting of two parts; division into two.


Life is about choices, the choices you make define you and affect your future in a big way. While it's true that, as society progresses, some things are more or less forced upon us, you can still decide for yourself what is the best choice to make for any situation.

Until current situation with blue-ray changes, you'll have to drag me kicking and screaming because there is no way I would invest in a player for it at current prices. Let alone re-buy all my movies that already play just fine, and and that I have a backup copy for in case it gets too old and stops playing. I have friends with massive dvd collections that could keep them entertained for life in the case of any "entertainment famine" which could one day manifest.

and if this is true-

and even as late as last fall, failure rates were around 1 out of 3 for Blu-ray discs

where do i sign up to ride that failboat? http://forum.doom9.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[WalterK]

What i meant was eventually you WILL be getting into the Blu-Ray camp whether its one year or five years from now. :)
With only one format now (Blu-Ray) its inevitable that you will use it.
Whether the next pc you purchase comes with a Blu-Ray drive or you eventually get a player, its now just a question of when, not whether or not you will.

[andru123]

Any chance that HD-DVD will still pick up in the future?

I mean, look at betamax. It was Sony's, and it was winning at first. But its was expensive. And in the mean time cheap VHS sneaked in, little by little, and eventually took over the customers.

Tbh, VHS won the consumers, not studios.

And what i see now is kind of artificial, fake "victory" of Blu-ray. Especially considering what Doom9 said about subsidies and production costs (wikipedia says different :confused:). I was very surprised by Toshiba's decision.
I mean, who gives a ... about WalMart and what was it, a NetFlix? I dont. :) I never even met them :D

Tbh, i hope now China or EU or Russia picks it up and rolls it out.

[Doom9]

I mean, look at betamax. It was Sony's, and it was winning at first. But its was expensive. And in the mean time cheap VHS sneaked in, little by little, and eventually took over the customers.But that's something else entirely - VHS wasn't pulled off the market and came back at a later time, and VHS didn't just have one hardware manufacturer (or did they at the time?).

And there's lots of people with a glued on blu visor who cannot even acknowledge that their format has any flaws (and keep in mind everybody can edit Wikipedia). But feel free to browse through the insider threads at AVS (and there's a late one just now (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=996975)) that also touches upon the subject of yields.

HD DVD making a comeback is as likely as the RIAA or MPAA pushing fair use legislation, or Sony actually working together with the rest of the industry for a common standard instead of trying to peddle their own "standard".

[Inventive Software]

I have to say, those who think HD-DVD is dead because Toshiba stopped making hardware and discs are completely wrong. Blu-Ray hasn't won anything, and can only call itself the "winner" if EVERYBODY stops making HD-DVD discs and releasing movies to HD-DVD. The fact all the major studios are sided with the Blu faction means nothing to the independent studios and home movie enthusiasts.

[communist]

I have to say, those who think HD-DVD is dead because Toshiba stopped making hardware and discs are completely wrong. Blu-Ray hasn't won anything, and can only call itself the "winner" if EVERYBODY stops making HD-DVD discs and releasing movies to HD-DVD. The fact all the major studios are sided with the Blu faction means nothing to the independent studios and home movie enthusiasts.
I dont get it. Why should company X say "Hey lets go with HD DVD, sure Toshiba is discontinuing it but we should still be able to sell it nicely..".
As for the indie studios - the masses dont care about them.
Home movie enthusiasts - a minority.

He's dead Jim..

[Hard Core Rikki]

This whole different formats issue just divided the market in 2 over arguments not benefiting the movie enthusiast (licencing fees, lockin measures, studios' benediction, etc... if these had it their way back in the VHS era, sure bee VCR's with recording capabilities wouldve been a sure goner).

heck, bigger storage space doesn't suddenly make bluray sexy, but Toshiba itself dropping support for hd-dvd is a sure message that the format seems to be in the early phases of euthanasia ;P
No wonder people would be expected to keep flocking to Bluray, PS3 in particular, as a futureproof BD player (bd-live)... :mad:

[andru123]

I will not be flocking. For the 2 days after announcement prices for HD-DVDs media fallen and prices of Blu-Rays went up. That means that my plans to buy a HD player postponed by probably 2 years or so it seems. Maybe even more. BluRay's are inherently expensive, i am not going to pay back for Sony's subsidies :) If somebody else will, it's his money :)
You right, consumers dont care much for independent studies. But they care even less for the big ones.
Just for the record i never had any format preference. It's just a media to me. I would buy a combi player and enjoyed them both.

[laserfan]

I have to say, those who think HD-DVD is dead because Toshiba stopped making hardware and discs are completely wrong.Not sure how you can say this with such confidence, though it ''tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd." ;)

I think I said earlier that I can't fathom how Toshiba could just "cut and run" from HD DVD. They should shop player designs and/or mfr rights to another company that might pick it up.

Certainly there is not the large market anymore for the clear Number 2 ("losing") format, but that doesn't mean some company(s) couldn't make a nice business out what's left (including for example low budget independent film makers).

[Rectal Prolapse]

I've been backing Blu-ray for quite a long time - only now do I think it is safe to say I support Blu-ray.

The major reason why I despise HD-DVD (aside from the technical superiority of the Blu-ray specifications) are the constant HD-DVD fanboy FUD arguments that keep getting repeated on virtually every forum I frequent (AVSForum, Doom9, ArsTechnica, slysoft, etc.). The insane amount of bias and editorializing without referring to the technical facts really turned me off.

I love doom9, AVS, etc, but to even talk about the technical merits of one against the other would be drowned by personal attacks (I'm just talking in general here). And then you would see ridiculous arguments about how space and bandwidth aren't important, and really, we should all just accept 720p x264 re-encodes that fit on a DVD-R for a 3 hour movie is the best quality in the world. Ugh - it's like watching a movie fan argue that Gone With the Wind looks fine on VHS tape!

And: Why is it that nobody understands that blu-ray burners (of high quality I may add - just go look at cdrlabs.com for the reviews on BD burners compared to the very poor quality HD-DVD burners out there) have been around since the beginning of the format and are widely available. The media has been of good quality as well. It is a complete joke that HD-DVD-R media has been available since the beginning, but no desktop burners can be had ANYWHERE! Ugh!

People, PLEASE, if you're gonna argue, at least apply some amount of critical thinking? Ok?

Sorry about the rant. I had to get it off my chest. The persecution of people that want the best possible PQ and AQ must stop.

On that note, I will quote the sig from above:

"Don't believe everything you read. In fact, don't believe ANYTHING you read! Do the research; think for yourself..."

PLEASE don't take anything the Microsoft engineers say as fact. USE your brain!

[Doom9]

The insane amount of bias and editorializing without referring to the technical facts really turned me off.Then I suggest you get outta here before you get my boot up your ass. Any and all reasons I ever voiced against Blu-ray are facts and I'm mostly seeing technically invalid arguments by people with no clue in favor of Blu-ray. The sheer amount of incompetent people out there who thin they're qualified to make a statement makes your head spin.

Besides the technical side, I have firsthand experience with plenty of titles from both format to underline the technical argument that size and bandwith are very much secondary to other technical aspects in video processing (starting with the quality of the master, over preprocessing and parameters during encoding). A well done HD DVD can kick a badly done MPEG-2 BD-25 title off the earth, and there are many BD-50 AVC titles that make a considerable number of VC-1 HD-30 titles look like crap.

And as far as the recorder arguments go.. first of all that's not the point of discussion here, but I'll humor you anyway by repeating myself (which I hate): it is more expensive to buy a dual layer blank than buying the movie. With today's reliability of harddisks, and the prevalence of NAS devices, you're much better off storing data on harddisks than on disks. And both CD and DVD broke through completely independently of the recordable angle. And as I said.. relevance.. nobody brought up recorders here because HD DVD recording has largely been, and will remain after Toshiba calling it quits, a non issue. You cannot even take HD DVD seriously as a storage format for your own content..

P.S. I own more than 40 Blu-ray titles (more in the mail somewhere), a Blu-ray recorder (6x, dual layer capable), and a BD-ROM drive.

[laserfan]

Ahem, if I might change the subject for just a moment: at least LG/Goldstar has come-out as still supporting the HD DVD format. Big company.

I dunno Rectal why you include Doom9 in your "fanboy" rant--compared at least to AVS Forum it seems the membership here has a ROM higher maturity level, if not IQ, than elsewhere! :p

[Rectal Prolapse]

laserfan: the response to my post does speak for itself, doesn't it? :(

doom9: Keep in mind that tools like tsremux and tsmuxer are quite handy for remuxing your own versions of Blu-ray, broadcast, and even HD-DVD movies for use in BD-Rs. It's quite convenient actually. And the BD-Rs work in the majority of BD standalone players too. It's nice that you don't need something like Scenarist HDMV to do this (or the equivalent HD-DVD version, Scenarist ACA which is now no longer supported).

Unfortunately, I've read an account on the Slysoft forum that HD-DVD-Rs have major issues playing in the HD-DVD standalones. :( However, not many people are doing this so it isn't known how widespread the problem is.

[Rectal Prolapse]

That's correct but you must've missed the point about Blu-ray production being heavily subsidized.. even though we're nearing 2 years, failure rates and cost are still high - but Sony eats up that cost, for now.

That may have been true a year ago. It appears to be different now, if you wish to believe the CinRAM (that's the right name I hope?) press releases on blu-ray yields (>80% for BD50).

Are you referring to Blu-ray dual layers? I think it may have been mentioned that BD50s cost less than a $1.00 to produce, but I don't know when this happened. I read it in one of the insider threads on AVS. HD30s are a bit cheaper I think, maybe on the order of tens of cents.

My understanding is that millions of BD25s have been manufactured (PS3 games mostly), so it can't be too bad.

[Rectal Prolapse]

Hmm, seems I misremembered. Just shy of 80%, not >80%.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-02-2007/0004674217&EDATE=

50 million BD50s? That doesn't sound right - that's way too many considering actually demand!

[zeroprobe]

doom9 have a read of this lengthy article. You might realise HD-DVD is not really the "consumers" choice after all.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/02/21/lessons-from-the-death-of-hd-dvd/


You should buy yourself a PS3 if you have not already. You might like it :)

[Sharktooth]

the article is pretty much full of BS.
even the consoles graph and the "words" do not match...
you gotta read carefully before linking that crap.
the guy seems to be an anti-M$ guy (even more than me!) and the article is very biased.
he forgot to say tha $ony has even worse practices than M$ when it comes to "controlling" something (rootkits... anyone?). in this case the movie business... and i dont think a codec or a format could make M$ in the same position of $ony...
infact, for example, even when $ony loose the VHS vs Betamax war they continued to grow and assimilate the movie industry "market" ... a recent act was the MGM acquisition...
in other words, he's looking at the finger but not at the moon...

[communist]

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/02/21/lessons-from-the-death-of-hd-dvd/

What a load of rubbish..

Backers were fed talking points that insisted that HD-DVD discs were cheaper to create, that the Chinese would pump out ultra cheap players to support Microsoft, and that HD-DVD’s DRM was somehow easier to get around than Blu-Ray. This was all false.
On HD DVD you 'bypass' AACS and then what? Disc decrypted - thats all you need to do to get to the video/audio streams. No BD+ whatever (regardless of how good it actually is).
This wasn’t a simple physical format war like the old VHS and Betamax rivalry; also at stake were the future of video codecs and embedded interactivity development.
What?! Give me a break, AVC/MPEG2/VC-1 are mandatory on HD DVD AND Blu-Ray. In the end the studios/authoring house decides which codec to choose. Given the enormous space on either disc type even properly encoded MPEG2 would work (not the kind of stuff seen on first Blu-Ray discs).
WinCE helped to destroy Palm
Palm destroyed Palm not WinCE.

[2Bdecided]

And the BD-Rs work in the majority of BD standalone players too.Can I clarify something here. I think I've read that AACS is mandatory for BluRay. Therefore compliant players won't play authored content unless it's AACS protected. I assume "consumer" authoring apps won't have this (and so won't exist).

Doesn't this make BD-R a useless format for my HD camcorder footage? BD-9 apparently works, but extra capacity would be "nice"!

What's the real situation?

Cheers,
David.

[Doom9]

doom9 have a read of this lengthy article. You might realise HD-DVD is not really the "consumers" choice after all.Unfortunately the Blu camp is still in full FUD mode.. instead of finally becoming realistic or simply have a drink to celebrate their victory (and be quiet in the meantime).

How can anybody honestly claim that HD DVD was Microsoft's format when they really didn't go out of their way to push it?

The whole site seems to be dedicated to Microsoft hate - just look at the images and the articles they link to (Microsoft's Plot to kill Quicktime, PS3 and the Death of Microsoft’s Xbox 360, Why Microsoft’s Copy-Killing Has Reached a Dead End, The Xbox Success Myth,

As far as VC-1 adoption goes, the author obviously never heard about Microsoft's effort in the broadcasting area.. VC-1 /WMV9 based IPTV solutions have been around long before we saw high def media an they will be kept around. Millions of PCs have the codec to play VC-1 already installed.

The paragraph reality distortion is is really that, but just in the inverse way:

It had already failed to successfully use WinCE in any other embedded market, from smartphones to music players to handheld computers, and had similarly failed to establish Windows Media as a download format against the ISO’s AAC and H.264, widely popularized by Apple’s iTunes.Look at the number of CE based smartphones, look at the number of PlayForSure devices - sure there are more phones with Symbian and a ton of iPods (that mostly play MP3 files), but neither WindowsMobile nor WMA are anything but a force to be reckoned with. In the online music area, even AAC will be scaled back as DRM free MP3 stores finally gain traction. And unlike the movie industry, in the computing industry the pie is sliced into different pieces - even on the OS market Microsoft is not the only player but has to share the pie with Apple, and various *nix flavors.

This is also a big strike against VC-1; despite being written into the Blu-Ray standard along with the ISO’s H.264,Umm.. about 1/3rd of all Blu-ray discs uses VC-1. Next please...
most Blu-Ray developers are moving toward H.264source please? Has warner given any indication of moving from VC-1? Has Universal given any indication they'd use AVC in the future? If not, those ratios are likely to go up as the MPEG-2 ratio goes down when more VC-1 (Warner, Universal, Paramount?) and AVC (Sony, Disney, Fox, Paramount?) titles are being released.

which not only allows them to master HD discs, but also deliver mobile and downloadable versions using the same codec for playback on devices such as the PSP and iPod.It takes the same amount of effort to include a second version encoded in MPEG-2, VC-1 or AVC (roughly, some encoders might be easier to handle and in that area MPEG-2, having being around the longest, probably has an advantage, followed by VC-1, and AVC being the late comer is likely not to have the most userfriendly tools yet).

Building support for HD-DVD into Windows Vista did almost nothing to shore up support for the format, and tying it to the Xbox 360 similarly did little to push things toward the outcome Microsoft wanted.umm.. last time I checked you still needed PowerDVD or Co to play any high def disc format in Vista, and the Xbox 360 add-on worked just as well on PCs.

The death of HD-DVD is another lethal wound for Microsoft’s dying empire.I'm sure next time around he'll tell us when Microsoft is going to die. I mean, come on

That whole site seems to be a glorious "Microsoft is Evil, Sony is good" incarnation. There's a fitting analogy to picture this, but I'm afraid it would require at least an NC-17 rating for this site to spell it out.

Did you just post that to get a raise out of FUD hating folks or do you seriously believe what's in the article? If it's the latter, you might better want to be very quiet about spreading that kind of crap as my boot still has plenty of kicking left in it.

@edit: wait, the site is also pro Apple against Microsoft? Talk about hate..

[Rectal Prolapse]

Can I clarify something here. I think I've read that AACS is mandatory for BluRay. Therefore compliant players won't play authored content unless it's AACS protected. I assume "consumer" authoring apps won't have this (and so won't exist).

That's odd - everyone I know who has burnt BD-Rs has no trouble playing content on their standalones and PS3s.

AACS is ONLY mandatory for BD-ROMs (ie. pressed media). NOT BD-Rs.

How can anybody honestly claim that HD DVD was Microsoft's format when they really didn't go out of their way to push it?

As far as I know, Microsoft has been there since before HD-DVD pushing their WMV9 codec (now called VC1) on AVS. I know - I was there when Microsoft employees were first convincing people to get on board with WMV9 with their WMV9 DVDs of such titles like Coral Reef Adventure, Amazon, etc.

Later, again on AVS (targeting the enthusiast home theater crowd), amirm, benwagonneer (who used to frequent doom9 I believe), etc. are evangelizing the VC1 codec as well as HDi and of course HD-DVD itself. How do you think the Insider's thread was born? It BEGAN with Microsoft employee insiders.

Microsoft has been pushing HD-DVD and the codecs HEAVILY. All you need to do is look at the 4 large Insiders threads. Count the posts made by amirm (the Microsoft VP) - they vastly outnumber the posts by all other insiders combined.

Please, I beg you, just look at them. Any reasonable person who looks in there should find it obvious that Microsoft DID try to push the format. It will only take a few moments of your time.

IMHO, Microsoft has done a very good job pushing the format. In fact, I was convinced for quite a while (a year or so) that HD-DVD was the way to go from a programming perspective (full disclosure: I despise Java! I'm a C++ junkie all the way! :) ).

Saying Microsoft didn't push the format is plain wrong IMHO - and is easily verified by looking in the threads I've mentioned. You can also see posts by the aforementioned Microsoft employees in many many other threads - just do a search for posts by amirm. Should be easy to do - easily verifiable!

If anything, what Microsoft did to push the format is a text-book example of HOW to push an agenda. They targeted well (programmers and HT geeks), allowed the audience to feel part of the Microsoft/HD-DVD team, forwarded concerns of the audience to related third parties (ie. report problems to the XBOX group, Toshiba). Very well executed - it forced the BDA to do similar things - the Fifth Element Remaster probably would never have happened if it weren't for Microsoft's splendid example of audience collaboration.

HD-DVD failed for many reasons - lack of promotion is NOT one of them! (Although to be fair, Microsoft didn't try as hard to get the Home Theater Forum members on-board - they concentrated mainly on AVS)

Microsoft, unfortunately, could not make any inroads into the broadcasting area - as far as I know, no broadcaster is willing to consider it (I believe the lack of true 1080i is the issue). It's a technical issue with the VC1 codec - I believe drmpeg is the one to ask to confirm this, as he works in this area. I could be wrong - I don't want to bother him as he is quite busy.

[Rectal Prolapse]

BTW, I think that roughlydrafted.com article is written by a pro-Apple guy. EDIT: Oh you mentioned that doom9! I find it amusing. But hey, if pro-HD-DVD people can bash Blu-ray and vice-versa, why not? :)

It is amusing - and some of his points were correct (the Microsoft promotion portion is spot on IMHO - although laid out too heavy for my taste hehe).

I've been on AVS for several years - so I've seen the Microsoft promotion since the beginning. Kudos to Microsoft for working hard to get people onboard the HD-DVD bandwagon - it certainly humbled the BDA.

[Rectal Prolapse]

Broadcast insider explains why VC-1 was rejected for the broadcasting space:

As for why VC-1 was not chosen for broadcast, the main technical reason is poor support of interlace. Everyone knew that interlace was added to VC-1 at the last minute (to get it though the SMPTE standardization process), whereas interlace is an integral part of the H.264 standard. Another concern was available room for encoder tweaking in the future. H.264 has many more avenues to pursue than VC-1, and some have even said that VC-1 encoder tweaking may have already peaked (while H.264 is expected to be good for 10 years, just like MPEG-2).

Then there are the political reasons. Aside from the obvious issue of just staying away from anything Microsoft, there was also the issue of future versions of WMV9 (WMV10,11,12......) competing against VC-1.

[Doom9]

Well, I know people who have VC-1 based IPTV at home and while quality isn't that great, the service works mostly fine.

And I would not confuse online activity in a single online forum with the kind of commitment we've seen from Sony & Co.
Having its hands in iHD and VC-1 Microsoft has an obvious interest in HD DVD but it is not tied to the format as VC-1 has other uses, and so has iHD. Releasing the Xbox360 with a HD DVD drive instead of the add-on and swallowing the cost of the extra price, paying off studios to go exclusive, getting studios to release combos a DVD price and scrap the DVD SKU - that would've been commitment. Sure it cost a pretty penny, but Sony is still bleeding through the nose and the investment is in the billions.

I'm also missing the regular press releases toting this and that milestone. The BDA had a very visible PR arm that easily outdid the HD DVD PG, and I'd expect quite a bit more from Microsoft if they were really at the helm.. (see the PR campaigns when a new Windows launches).

And, Sony Playstation fanboy and Apple fanboy = a lot of hate for Microsoft.

[Rectal Prolapse]

Can you explain IPTV w/VC-1? Sounds neat - is it the same as XBOX Live's Online movie service? Are cable companies offering it or is it a restricted market kind of thing (like, only in Seattle, or something similar?).

Releasing the Xbox360 with a HD DVD drive instead of the add-on and swallowing the cost of the extra price, paying off studios to go exclusive, getting studios to release combos a DVD price and scrap the DVD SKU - that would've been commitment.

There was a rumor that Microsoft was going to unveil an HD-DVD-equipped XBOX 360 - but they canned it at the last minute after the Warner announcement. I guess Microsoft WAS committed but backed out.

[Rectal Prolapse]

Oh I forgot to mention - Microsoft had around 10 or 20 minutes devoted to HD-DVD in their CES 2008 presentation. All that was cut at the last minute - I read that it was going to be a very big promotion of HD-DVD.

The timing of the Warner announcement was a big blow.

[Doom9]

Can you explain IPTV w/VC-1?It's actually a Telco that offers the service over their DSL network, as they try to make inroads into the TV market. They are thus in competition with the cable companies who use analog and DVB-C (but at least the largest cable company here added streaming video as well.. I do not know which technology they use though). At least another two Telco also offers Microsoft based TV streams to their own customers for free, but those require a PC as well (and isn't really made for long time fullscreen watching - unlike the first service I mentioned where you get a dedicated settop box, and they use about 5mbit for a single channel).

here was a rumor that Microsoft was going to unveil an HD-DVD-equipped XBOX 360 Those are just that.. rumors. Microsoft sold millions of devices since HD DVD came to market and they've shown to change the SKUs considerably over time.. so adding an HD DVD drive in Summer 06 would have been possible if Microsoft was truly serious about using the Trojan horse approach which worked quite well for Sony.

[Sharktooth]

actually M$ gained from the failure of HD-DVD...
now they will sell BD units to Xbox360 customers... even those which already bought the HD-DVD unit...

[Rectal Prolapse]

Thanks for the explanation, doom9.

[andru123]

I just wonder: who is going to buy the blu rays now or in the coming year - two?
I mean yeah, ok, the features would be nice to see, but is it really worth 400$ + 30-50$ per disk? (Note that it's in euros in EU). I'd rather have a new PC with a shiney proc. :rolleyes: Or am i that poor?

[Rectal Prolapse]

Everything seems more expensive in the EU. :(

Blu-rays are still cheap in North America - easily under $30 US, and for the older titles they are in the $20s. It's on par with the prices of DVDs within the first 2 years of DVD production. If you factor in inflation - Blu-rays and HD-DVDs are DIRT CHEAP even compared to DVD back in those days! Amazing!

Strangely, in the retail stores here, the Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs were priced almost exactly the same. Why weren't HD-DVD discs priced lower, if they are supposed to be cheaper to make? :(

[Shinigami-Sama]

Strangely, in the retail stores here, the Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs were priced almost exactly the same. Why weren't HD-DVD discs priced lower, if they are supposed to be cheaper to make? :(

you missed the part of Sony's Subsidies didn't you?

also I have yet to see any around my parts of Canada as well

[Rectal Prolapse]

Well, as far as I know both sides did subsidies - I read that Star Trek Season 1 was subsidized by Toshiba (at least the mastering costs). But hey, who cares, as long as the consumer can see the benefits?

[Doom9]

The strong dollar versus strong Euro doesn't help the comparison though, but discs are definitely way too expensive around here. I hope Regionfree will become a must now since at this point it really makes no sense to shop for discs anywhere but the US unless you like dubbed crap (and you hardly get any dubbed stuff in lossless anyway).
If you want to go blu for cheap, get the $110 LiteOn Blu-ray reader (it also only reads CD s and DVDs) and buy the discs at Amazon & Co.

[Rectal Prolapse]

Oh, there's a new LiteOn BD reader? Damn. I'll have to look out for that.

Anyways - yeah - I know quite a few people living in the EU that are importing Blu-ray discs from the United States. It's crazy how expensive electronics and media are over there.

[RealGreatIdea]

I can't really see why anyone would knock Blu-ray...it is def. better than any of its alternatives!

[Sharktooth]

IMHO blu-ray is going to die unless the equipments and the discs become cheaper.
also there's still the fact you cant backup your discs...

[Shinigami-Sama]

I can't really see why anyone would knock Blu-ray...it is def. better than any of its alternatives!

lol wut?
have you been paying attention at all to whats been going on?

[Rectal Prolapse]

I have to admit - the PQ of the Buena Vista and Sony BD releases are really damn good. And the audio quality is amazing too.

Differences in quality on either side are, from what I can see and hear, down to how much effort the studios want to put in.

[Doom9]

You certainly mean those early Sony 25GB MPEG-2 discs ;)

[Rectal Prolapse]

Don't forget those recent Universal HD-DVD releases that got low scores on hidefdigest. :)

(Like I said - studio effort...) ;)

[Undead Sega]

HD DVD is just the best :D

[Sharktooth]

... WAS just the best :(

[Undead Sega]

and IS still the best.

[Guest]

The thread has degenerated to useless chat. In lieu of strikes, let's just close it.