PAL to NTSC in Procoder 2-- How to Eliminate PAL Speedup?

[zyzzle77]

I'm trying to do a conversion of a 100 minute 25 fps PAL DVD into NTSC using Procoder 2. I want to eliminate the 4% PAL speedup in both the video and audio domain. I want the video length to be extended to 104 minutes, and the audio to sych perfectly, also extended to 104 minutes...

This is what I have done: Use the Wizard to select the source, selected DVD, "highest quality" and under "Advanced settings" under Frame Rate selected "23.976p --> NTSC (3-2 Pulldown)"

My final encode claims to be anamorphic NTSC 720x480, but the runtime is still only 100 minutes! Audio and video are still sped-up.

Is there any way to do a proper conversion using Procoder? Should my settings be changed? If not, which program will do a proper conversion with excellent quality comparable to Procoder's claimed quality? I'm trying to learn, and would appreciate any help or tips on using Procoder that you guys can provide on how elimiate 4% PAL speedup in doing a PAL->NTSC conversion.

[manono]

Hi-

How are you getting the video into Procoder? Are you using an AviSynth script to frameserve? If so, what's the script? Are you expecting Procoder to slow the audio for you? Don't. Extract it and slow it yourself. Bring it back into the video when authoring for DVD.

I think all you had Procoder do was resize and add duplicate frames to bring the framerate up to 29.97fps. That keeps it the same length and, worse, introduces a slight stutter during certain kinds of movement.
Is there any way to do a proper conversion using Procoder?
Yes, but probably not the way you're trying to do it.

[scharfis_brain]

ProCoder actually is able to do speedup & slowdown...

but I never use it, cause I do not trust procoders abilities to filter and resize correctly...

[manono]

Hi-
ProCoder actually is able to do speedup & slowdown...

Using a wizard as he's doing? And without frameserving with an AviSynth script? I don't use it either, for some of the same reasons as you, but I fooled around with it a year or so ago and did some PAL2NTSC conversions. But not using the wizard.

[scharfis_brain]

I don't know anymore for sure.
but even without the wizard:
1) select a NTSC-source (23.976p)
2) tell it in the encoding properties, to encode PAL 25p
3) it will do a speedup, unless you tell it otherwise in the programs options.

[FrozenDog]

I recently did three PAL->NTSC conversions using ProCoder3. I don't know what changes were made from previous versions, but ProCoder2 should work the same. Here's what I did:

Rip PGC(movie only) to single vob.
Demux video with DGIndex.
Add demuxed m2v in ProCoder(main program not wizard) and select 'no audio stream'.
For target choose 'MPEG2 - DVD - NTSC (mastering quality)' which is 2-pass VBR.
Adjust Min Bitrate to 2500 kbps.
Adjust Max Bitrate if needed (I use 8000 kbps).
Adjust Video Bitrate based on movie length and media size.
Select 'Don't Use Audio'.
Hit 'Convert' and let ProCoder do its magic.

Leave audio as is and only adjust for any delay with delaycut. The resultant m2v multiplexed with the unmolested ac3 will synch perfectly.

I use Scenarist, but I'm sure other authoring programs will work as well. All three conversions look fantastic on my 50 inch Sammy.

[manono]

Leave audio as is and only adjust for any delay with delaycut. The resultant m2v multiplexed with the unmolested ac3 will synch perfectly.
Then you didn't do what zyzzle77 wants to do, which is to slow both the audio and video by 4% to get rid of the PAL speedup. And if true, then I seriously question:
All three conversions look fantastic on my 50 inch Sammy.
Do you have a small 10 second sample you'd like to show the world?

[zyzzle77]

Thanks for your responses. Actually, I do have AviSynth installed, but I did not need it to import the .VOB files into Procoder. I just selected the VTS_01_1.VOB file and Procoder recognized the full complement of VOBs directly. I'm fine with slowing down the audio 4% manually if need be, then re-muxing the audio stream back into the (4% slowed down video stream) while authoring. Can anyone suggest a good AviSynth script which would accomplish both of these tasks?

I've just read on this forum and others that Procoder offers excellent PAL --> NTSC conversion, and wanted to know if it does proper conversion, without speedup. From your responses, it looks like not. It seems like for its expensive cost, it should be able to slow both video & audio down when doing the conversion, using the Wizard, with no fuss.

@manono
Thanks for your insights...

[scharfis_brain]

From your responses, it looks like not.
You haven't read my post carefully enough.
You need to disable the speedup in the Options/Preferences of ProCoder.

[zyzzle77]

@scharfis_brain

I reread your posting. It seems you've given directions on how to convert NTSC --> PAL. I'm trying to do the opposite (a PAL source converted to an NTSC FILM (23.976p) target at 29.97 fps with 3:2 pulldown.

OK, I adjusted under "Transcoding settings" the option "Enable Source Playback Speed Adjustment" to be UNCHECKED, whereas before it WAS checked. Will this now eliminate the speedup?

Also, will this setting affect the Wizard, or only the main program?

[scharfis_brain]

Also, will this setting affect the Wizard, or only the main program?

I guess it is for both. But I cannot say for sure.

Give it a try!

[manono]

Can anyone suggest a good AviSynth script which would accomplish both of these tasks?
Since you understand AviSynth, here's how I did it:

Make the D2V project file in DGIndex using Honor Pulldown Flags as the field operation. That will give you a 25fps D2V and the original audio. Use a script something like this:

LoadPlugin("C:\Path\To\DGDecode.dll")
MPEG2Source("C:\Path\To\Movie.d2v")
LanczosResize(720,480)
AssumeFPS(23.976)
ConvertToYUY2()# does Procoder need this? I think I used that in the script.

Here are a couple of pics I made last year, but they were for a conversion keeping the original framerate of 25fps. You'll want to change the framerate box:

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t308/Tommydan1/DVDPics/Procoder1.jpg http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t308/Tommydan1/DVDPics/Procoder2.jpg

I trust wizards about as far as I can throw them. I'm not saying it won't work, but that I wouldn't ever use one. And you surely don't need one. Maybe you can do it with M2Vs or VOBs as the source, but I much prefer frameserving using AviSynth. Set your Stream Format and Stream Type as in the pic on the left. The framerate should be 23.976fps. I applied pulldown afterwards using DGPulldown. I suppose you can do it in the encoder. It looks as if I did a CQ encode for the test but you'll probably want to do a 2-pass VBR encode. The pic on the right looks OK to me, but I'll bow to any Procoder experts that want to comment on or criticize those settings. I just did it to see if I could. Everyone was all the time saying that Procoder did the best conversion, but when they put up samples, I always found duplicate frames caused by the use of some crummy wizard by someone that didn't know what he was doing.

I would keep the audio away from Procoder entirely. Open the AC3 in BeSweet and use the Preset to create WAV files (6 Mono WAV files if need be) set for 25000->23976. Then take those slowed down WAV files and reencode for AC3. Use Aften and one of the GUIs for freeware, but if you have Soft Encode or some other commercial AC3 encoder, use that.

I applied standard pulldown to the resulting MPV, and also changed the celltimes.txt given to me by PGCDemux (which I always use to demux my movies from the DVDs). If you have subs, you'll also have to change their timings. That's easy enough. Ask if you don't know how. Then, when all the converted pieces are assembled, open Muxman, add in the M2V, the AC3, the edited celltimes.txt (in File->Import Chapters), and the converted SUP file for the subtitles. Author and you're done. If you want menus, maybe use DVDAuthorGUI (freeware) or some other authoring program. Converting the menus yourself is pretty tricky and not for the faint of heart.

[FrozenDog]

Hi manono, my apologies you're absolutely right. My method does not address any 4% PAL speedup issue whatsoever. I was merely trying to share my limited experience with converting PAL to NTSC using ProCoder. I also tried Avisynth+CCE but only resized @25fps and pulldowned 25->29.97, again leaving the audio untouched. CCE looked good but I actually liked ProCoder's output better.

I went ahead and reprocessed a short clip using the same method described earlier. There are three parts which include the original PAL source files (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CWGCM40P), ProCoder's output file (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PEO54V6Z)and a Scenarist muxed vob (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KRRQNZB9). I also converted Outland (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082869/) but its an older movie and probably not the best transfer but I upped a vob chunk (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UY7MNZVR)anyway.

I'm sure your method and others are much more accurate in dealing with this type of conversion. I found this one to be the simplest and easiest for me and I am satisfied with the results.

Cheers

[manono]

Hi FrozenDog-

Your source is interlaced, so it's apples and oranges as far as a comparison to what zyzzle77 wants to do, since his source is a progressive movie which can be slowed to 23.976fps, while yours can't. Did you really run this thing through CCE and later through DGPulldown set for 25->29.97fps? And you didn't deinterlace it beforehand? If so, then I'd say no wonder you preferred the Procoder output. Procoder added blended fields to go from interlaced 25fps to interlaced 29.97fps. It's not the way I'd do it, but I can't criticize because there is no real good way to convert interlaced PAL to interlaced NTSC.

Thanks for the samples.

[FrozenDog]

Thanks manono for your input.

Your source is interlaced...
Yeah, bad example - Concerts are typically interlaced. I'm still trying to understand this PAL format.

...there is no real good way to convert interlaced PAL to interlaced NTSC.

In that case, I'll stick with the quick and dirty method.


I think I'll redo "Outland" @4% slowdown and see how it looks and sounds.