Matrix selection in DVD-RB Pro 1.26.6

[Sharc]

2 question I have about the matrix options:

1) The 5 bitrate dependent matrices (high / med-high / medium / low / very low) cover now the entire range of bitrates from very low to very high. What is now left to the "Main Feature Matrix"? I assume it is relegated to the definition of the matrix which is used for the Redistribution pass. Correct?

2) If I tick under "Matrix for Extras" => "Same as Main Feature": Will the Matrix be used which is ticked under "Main Feature Matrix", or will the 5 bitrate dependent matrices kick in - according to the bitrate of the Extras?

I hope my questions are understandable.....
Thanks.

[blutach]

My understanding is that (as it was for when there were only 2 choices) that main feature covered everything except for when the BR for a segment was found to be "in range", at which time, the matrix chosen for the range would be substituted.

So, now that the whole gamut is covered, main feature/extras may become a bit redundant. You could, of course, say for 3000-3500 (for example), "same as main feature".

Regards

[jdobbs]

1) The "Main Feature Matrix" is the default when any of the others aren't used. For example, if you only set the "Very Low" matrix -- all others would default to the "Main Feature" matrix.

2) If you select a matrix for the "Extras" it will be used for all extras regardless of what you have selected in the others. If not -- it will go through the same sequence of the 5 bitrate selections.

[blutach]

@jdobbs - there is no way in the GUI to unset the matrix for extras - do you mean have it set to "same as main feature"?

Regards

[jdobbs]

Yes. If you set it to "Same as Main Feature" it will go through the same matrix selection process as the main feature (all the selected matrices). It worked that way in the past as well.

The reason there is an "Extras" matrix independent of the others is so you can decide to use an especially "blurring" matrix and a low bitrate (e.g. "33% reduction") to save a lot of space for the feature.

[Sharc]

Thanks for clarification.
I got little confused initally because the bitrates in the redistribution.txt apparently do not reflect the space (bitrate) gained through Extras reduction (14.3% in my case). The .ecl however does and the matrix allocation is accordingly consistent.

[tom942]

Now that we've got the new division of bitrates, could be a good idea to set these matrices?.

1. 4000+ --> FOX1

2. <4000 --> FOX2 or MPEG_STD

3. <3500 --> CCE's default matrix

4 <3000 --> AVAMAT 6, QLB or other

5 <2000 --> AVAMAT 7 or other

Any suggestions?.

Regards :).

[Sharc]

Yes, why not. Your choice looks reasonable.

Added:
In my experience the selection of the "right" matrix for "natural" movies of say 2 hours duration / 2 language tracks is normally not too critical, and the differences might be minor or even hardly noticeable. We have to keep in mind that for backups one is re-encoding already mpeg encoded material. Means it has alredy been pre-processed (filtered etc.) and some components of the original film have alredy been removed.

You can nicely experiment with Rockas Matrix Editor btw.

[chompy]

Now that we've got the new division of bitrates, could be a good idea to set these matrices?.

1. 4000+ --> FOX1

2. <4000 --> FOX2 or MPEG_STD

3. <3500 --> CCE's default matrix

4 <3000 --> AVAMAT 6, QLB or other

5 <2000 --> AVAMAT 7 or other

Any suggestions?.

Regards :).

I use the corresponding matrices of Rockas Matrix Editor:

1. 4000+ --> 1-High_High(4000+)

2. <4000 --> 3-High_Low(3500-4000)

3. <3500 --> 5-Medium_Medium(2800-3500)

4 <3000 --> 7-Low_High(1800-2500)

5 <2000 --> 8-Low_Low(1800-)

Are they outdated or do they are still good options??

Greetings

[Sharc]

The set of Rockas' matrices are still a valid choice. Some matrices appear under different names, but are basically identical.

Rockas 1 is basically the same as FOX1 or FHE (FOX Home Entertainment)
Rockas 2 is sometimes referred to as FOX2
Rockas 3 is sometimes referred to as FOX3
Rockas 4 is the Standard Mpeg Matrix
Rockas 5 is the CCE Default Standard Matrix
Rockas 6 is equivalent to the Sony_127_medium matrix
Rockas 7 is CCE's Very Low Bitrate Matrix
Rockas 8 is CCE's Ultra Low Bitrate Matrix.

I personally find that Rockas 6 is more suited for higher bitrates and should be higher up in the list, I would put it before Rockas 5.

For DVD-RB (<3000) I prefer the CCE Default matrix or Avamat 6 aka AUTO_Q1, for DVD-RB (<2000) I prefer Avamat 7 aka AUTO-Q2.

[tom942]

I agree with Sharc.

Maybe a good general selection could be:

1. 4000+ ---> FOX1 (FHE)

2. <4000 ---> Manono's MPEG_STD_1 (It's a substitute of CCE's MPEG matrix)

08 08 08 09 11 13 14 17
08 08 09 11 13 13 14 17
08 08 11 12 13 14 17 94
09 11 13 13 14 17 17 94
11 11 13 13 14 17 94 94
13 13 14 16 17 20 94 94
13 13 14 17 94 94 94 94
13 14 17 94 94 94 94 94
12 12 13 14 15 16 22 26
12 13 14 15 16 22 26 32
13 14 15 16 22 26 32 41
14 15 16 22 26 32 41 53
15 16 22 26 32 41 53 94
16 22 26 32 41 53 70 94
22 26 32 41 53 70 94 94
26 32 41 53 94 94 94 94

3. <3500 ---> Manono's MPEG_STD_2 (it's Sony_127_Medium matrix)

08 12 13 14 15 16 19 22
12 13 14 15 16 19 22 26
13 14 15 16 19 22 26 32
14 15 16 19 22 26 32 41
15 16 19 22 26 32 41 53
16 19 22 26 32 41 53 70
19 22 26 32 41 53 70 94
22 26 32 41 53 70 94 127
12 12 13 14 15 16 19 22
12 13 14 15 16 19 22 26
13 14 15 16 19 22 26 32
14 15 16 19 22 26 32 41
15 16 19 22 26 32 41 53
16 19 22 26 32 41 53 70
19 22 26 32 41 53 70 94
22 26 32 41 53 70 94 127

4. <3000 ---> AVAMAT 6 or CCE's default matrix (a bit sharper to my eyes)

5. <2000 ---> AVAMAT 7 or Manono's AVAMAT 7 version (also a bit sharper to my eyes)

08 12 16 20 24 28 32 36
12 16 20 24 28 32 36 42
16 20 24 28 32 36 42 48
20 24 28 32 36 42 48 54
24 28 32 36 42 48 54 62
28 32 36 42 48 54 62 70
32 36 42 48 54 62 70 80
36 42 48 54 62 70 80 92
16 20 24 28 34 40 46 52
20 24 28 34 40 46 52 58
24 28 34 40 46 52 58 64
28 34 40 46 52 58 64 70
34 40 46 52 58 64 70 78
40 46 52 58 64 70 78 86
46 52 58 64 70 78 86 99
52 58 64 70 78 86 99 99

I call them this way because Manono send them to me in a PM.
Both are really good matrices because they give a sharp image.

I copy them here if someone find them useful.

Regards :).

[Sharc]

Thanks tom & manono. Interesting alternatives.

[blutach]

I have a little bug, I think.

After prepare, I edit and change the BR for a segment from 3995 to 4010. This obviously crosses a "matrix border", but the matrix is not changed in the ECL - it is still the <4000 one. I have to change it manually.

Regards

[Sharc]

I reported this some time ago. Jdobbs confirmed that the matrices are not updated after manual bitrate changes by means of the DVD-RB Editor. Not sure if he is going to change this.

[blutach]

:( I hope he does. It would really round off the Viewer/Editor function (searches for a "beg jdobbs" emoticon).

Perhaps eventually, for HC users, Hank will implement GOP matrix encoding, anyway.

Regards

[cyspur]

I have a little bug, I think.

After prepare, I edit and change the BR for a segment from 3995 to 4010. This obviously crosses a "matrix border", but the matrix is not changed in the ECL - it is still the <4000 one. I have to change it manually.

Regards

@blutach

do you use the rme to edit the br for a segment? Thx m8

[blutach]

No. I just use the new "multi-region" feature in 1.26.6. If I want to edit it further, I'll edit the ECL manually.

@jdobbs - will this little bug be fixed in the next version?

Regards

[jdobbs]

Ugghh... it's not as easy as it looks. But I'll see if I can get it into the next release.

BTW. It isn't really a "bug" -- it's just a "feature" that probably should have been implemented. ;)

[blutach]

Thanks for looking at it and of course, it's just a tiny enhancement in reality.

Regards

[m1ckran]

This might be a silly question. If so, please pardon my ignorance but here goes:

Now that we can select several matrices, how does redistribution fit into the jigsaw? Is it now obsolete?

Regards
Michael

[jdobbs]

Two completely different things. The REDISTRIBUTION tells the encoder what bitrate to use. The matrix is then selected to optimize the picture based upon that bitrate.

[m1ckran]

I see. So they are complementary. In my confusion, I though that redistribution automatically used the default matrix and ignored any user-settings.

Thanks, jdobbs, for clearing that up.

:thanks:

[tom942]

I have updated my post #11 to add a new matrix.

Regards.

[murimurimuri]

So.. I have different matrices for high, med, low bitrates (like those posted in this thread) and have 'encoder default' selected for the main feature matrix. If I enable redistribution, as far as I understand it will use 'encoder default' or CCE's default matrix for the redistribution pass. Would there still be any benefit to keeping these custom matrices or will it just create problems with the Q value?

If it's best to only have the one matrix with redistribution, what's a good choice? I'm not into changing settings on a per DVD basis, I'd rather just have one general option to suit more or less everything. Having said that, would it make the most sense to have matrices for say action, drama and animation and use the appropriate matrix based on the title?

Suggestions? Any help is much appreciated.

[jdobbs]

Leave it at "Encoder Default". The default matrix is designed gives good results across the spectrum of disc types.

[Sworm]

Yes. If you set it to "Same as Main Feature" it will go through the same matrix selection process as the main feature (all the selected matrices). It worked that way in the past as well.

The reason there is an "Extras" matrix independent of the others is so you can decide to use an especially "blurring" matrix and a low bitrate (e.g. "33% reduction") to save a lot of space for the feature.

If i understand....
For example i have a video with
HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 4.456/400/2.747 Kbs

The overall bitrate is 2.747.

The "Main Feature matrix" must be setted with a matrix that will work on the "High Bitrate" (eg Fox 1) or a matrix that work on the overall/typical bitrate?(2.747kbs)

I don't have understand this .....

I want to set in this mode , my matrix options:
Main Feature matrix = (I'm not sure) 6-medium_low(2500-3200) ???
High Bitrate Matrix (4000+) = 1-High_High(4000+)
Med High Bitrate Matrix (<4000) = 3-high_low(3500-4000)
Medium Bitrate Matrix (<3500) = 5-medium_medium(2800-3500)
Low Bitrate Matrix (<3000) = 6-medium_low(2500-3200)
Very low Bitrate Matrix (<2000) = bdvd (1500-2500) or Very_Low
Matrix For Extras = Very_Low

Anybody can suggest me if my choise of the matrix is ok?
Repeat i don't have understand what is the correct matrix for the "Main Feature Matrix" .....

Thanks in advance

P.S.
I have already searched but i do not found nothing for my problem.