AI Scanner and PathPlayer capabilities

[setarip_old]

has anyone as yet confirmed specific DVDs that could ONLY be processed by these specialized capabilities of AnyDVDHD and/or DVFABHDDecrypter, as opposed to the "standard" functions of these two programs?

If so, please provide the Title(s) and Region #(s) of the DVDs...

[SamuriHL]

Any of the latest New Line titles with that horrifying XProtect protection or whatever you want to call it can not be done by AnyDVD without the AI Scanner. The reason for this is that the old heuristics engine is no longer being updated. So, any new protections that were released after the AI Scanner was released will not work without it. That's a different approach than that used by DVDFab HD Decrypter.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

Hi!

Then, has the AI Scanner part of the program required modification/updating regarding "New Line" releases" subsequent to "Blade-House of Chthon"?

What I'm trying to determine is whether "AI Scanner" and/or "PathPlayer" actually represent self-adapting "artificial intelligence", or have to be continuously updated - just the like other ripping programs out there...

[SamuriHL]

As far as I know, it had to be tweaked slightly for Rush Hour 3, but, I can't confirm that right now. I'd have to go look at some posts to find out. I know they're constantly tweaking and refining it, so, at the moment it's still the continuously updating model. Just not as much as the old heuristics engine. Since it's new I think there have been some growing pains but it's getting better and better. At the moment I don't think they're quite at the point of not needing refinements still, but, there was a few weeks where the AI Scanner code wasn't touched at all. I'll check on the Rush Hour 3 thing and verify that there were changes made for that. I might be mistaken there.

[SamuriHL]

It seems I was indeed mistaken about Rush Hour 3. It appears to have handled it quite well. Here's the changelist for AnyDVD:

http://www.slysoft.com/download/changes_anydvd.txt

That should give you an idea of what kinds of issues have been found. I'll be honest...I've not done much with DVDs recently. I've been doing only HD DVD and Blu-ray for the past few months.

[setarip_old]

Thanks for the changelist. The following items, culled from the two most recent dates listed in it appear to indicate that the "regular" portion (Not the AI Scanner - those I've highlighted in red) does, in fact, continue to be updated:AnyDVD History

6.3.0.3 2007 12 21

- New (DVD): Support for new copy protection found on some adult titles
- New (DVD): AnyDVD ripper can now handle discs, which have menu files bigger than 1GB (which is against the specification).
- New (DVD): Improved performance of the AI scanner.
- Fix (DVD): PS18 error with some discs, e.g. "The Forgotten", R1, US
- Fix (DVD): AI Scanner accidently removed a title set from "8 Below", R2, Japan


6.3.0.0 2007 11 30
- New (DVD): Some discs are mastered incorrectly and have invalid file sizes. AnyDVD now corrects the file sizes in the VIDEO_TS directory.
- New (DVD): Added support for new copy protection as found on "This is England" (R2, UK)
- Fix (DVD): CSS decryption problems with some protected discs on region code mismatch
- Fix (DVD): Although CloneDVD2 worked with "Hairspray" (US), AnyDVD ripper aborted with a "VobSet 1" error. This is fixed now.If I'm interpreting this changelog correctly, it would appear that the "regular" ripper continues to be relied upon - and continues to require updating, in the same manner as the other "non-AI/PathPlayer" ripping programs...

[SamuriHL]

I'm not sure I follow you exactly. You're saying based on highlights of changes to the AI Scanner that the "regular" ripper is still being worked on?? How do you make that jump in logic? They're only working on improving the AI Scanner. The heuristics engine is still there but doesn't get any updates. That would be the "regular ripper" that you're referring to IMO. The things you've highlighted were simply bugs in the AI Scanner that have now been fixed. (The 8 below bug was particularly nasty and it took many versions to fix from what I read.) But anyway, I take it as the AI Scanner technology is continuously being improved and as bugs are found they're being fixed, not that they're continuing to rely on the "regular" ripper. Perhaps I misunderstood what you're saying?

[setarip_old]

You're saying based on highlights of changes to the AI Scanner that the "regular" ripper is still being worked on?? How do you make that jump in logic?The red highlighted line items refer specifically to the "AI Scanner" and so are presumably applicable to the "AI Scanner" portion of the program. The other line items DO NOT refer specifically to the "AI Scanner" and, therefore, are presumably referring to the "regular" ripping portion of the program. Otherwise, I don't believe it would be necessary for the publishers to identify some line items as being (specifically) applicable to the "AI Scanner" portion. There must be a reason they make the distinction...

[SamuriHL]

No, I disagree with your conclusion, although I see how you drew that conclusion. The AnyDVD Ripper code has nothing to do with the protection removal code in AnyDVD, and a lot of the changes that are not highlighted in your post above are specific to the ripper. This is NOT the same thing as the heuristics engine. The ripper is code based on CloneDVD that is used to rip the movie. The AI Scanner is the mechanism for removing the protection. When they say things like "support for more copy protection..." that's referring to the AI Scanner even though it doesn't specifically state that. If there is a BUG with the scanner, or in some cases a performance enhancement to increase the speed at which it scans the disc, they'll refer to the AI Scanner specifically. Anyway, my point is that even though they may not specifically mention the AI Scanner, any tweaks for new copy protection happen there. This has been confirmed by Slysoft that they are not working on the heuristics engine anymore and are focusing strictly on the AI Scanner since it was introduced.

[SamuriHL]

One thing I want to make very clear...while I AM saying they are focusing just on the AI Scanner for protection removal on DVDs, I am NOT suggesting that it's perfect by any means. It has bugs, flaws, and growing pains. It's definitely improving with each new revision. However, it's not yet the end all, be all of copy protection removal. It's getting there, but, it has a ways to go I think.

[setarip_old]

Thanks for providing your perspective regarding AnyDVD. As I said in Post#3 here, what I'm trying to determine is whether "AI Scanner" and/or "PathPlayer" actually represent self-adapting "artificial intelligence", or have to be continuously updated - just the like other ripping programs out there.

From what you've indicated regarding "AI Scanner", it seems that it doesn't presently offer any greater capability than the other continously updated "conventional" rippers.

It would still be interesting to hear from anyone who has firsthand knowledge of DVDFab HD Decrypter's "PathPlayer" function successfully processing a DVD that the most current "conventional" rippers aren't able to process...

[SamuriHL]

Yea, I would have to agree with your assessment that currently from a user's stand point it has improved things, but, is not quite the "R4M" gold standard if you will. I think they're getting there with each new revision. What I can say is that it seems to be better for Slysoft, or at least it appears that way. By this I mean that they have excellent logging now that detail what the problem is and can provide fixes faster. Also what I think they're finding isn't so much that the AI Scanner technology isn't working, rather, there are simply bugs to be worked out. I think we should revisit this question in a couple of months to see how they've faired with the current bug fixes in place.

As for PathPlayer, I really can't comment on that one as I don't use it all that often. I, too, would be interested in seeing someone's first hand knowledge of how well it works and whether it needs to be constantly updated, as well.

[wildchild77]

Yea, I would have to agree with your assessment that currently from a user's stand point it has improved things, but, is not quite the "R4M" gold standard

We can only hope for another great program like Ripit4Me :sly::) to show up this time as open source or on BitTorrent from an anonymous programmer. Maybe even a tool / plug-in could be developed to handle the corrupt IFO's R4Me can not deal with.

[SamuriHL]

I'm not sure how much time and effort people are going to put into more DVD tools. It's always possible as DVD is still the number 1 format, but, I know I haven't bought a DVD in months. I've been focused strictly on building my HD library...both HD DVD and Blu-ray. I think the big challenges lie there.

Nonetheless, another open source tool to handle DVD protection would be nice. Maybe they'll simply give up on DVD protection like they've *FINALLY* now all done for music. (Yes, even Sony announced today that they're dropping DRM for online music. The world really is coming to an end! :D) If that ever happens, none of these tools will be necessary.

[layer3maniac]

I just now tried to use DVDFab HD Decrypter to rip "I Know Who Killed Me" (R1) - it failed and automatically went to "PathPlayer", results pending...

[layer3maniac]

Error while reading! Please choose what to do?

Retry Abort Ignore Ignore All

[setarip_old]

@layer3maniac

I could be wrong but, unless our friends at SONY have just come up with a brand new iteration of their "ARccOS" protection (I'd really be surprised if this proves to be the case, as it's been QUITE a while), I'd sooner speculate that your DVD is either dirty or physically damaged...

[layer3maniac]

That was my initial impression as well, but DVDFab HD Decrypter reports it as "copy protection".

[setarip_old]

I'd take that choice of words with a grain of salt - After all, the program's "job" is to remove copy protection ;>}

If, after cleaning the DVD, it still exhibits this problematic behavior, just return it to the place of purchase in exchange for a new replacement...

[layer3maniac]

Well, this is odd. I was reluctant to think it was a bad disc because it plays fine in my stand-alone and appears spic & span.

After the "copy protection" screen in DVDFab HD Decrypter I cleaned it and tried it again. Both times it went to 98%, then automatically switched to Path Player which promptly took a dive at 3%.

I just successfully ripped it using RI4M. :shrug:

[setarip_old]

I just successfully ripped it using RI4M.Makes life interesting, doesn't it? ;>}

[SamuriHL]

@setarip_old

6.3.0.7 2008 01 10
- Happy new year!
- New: Autoplay is no longer triggered, if settings are changed or AnyDVD is
disabled / enabled.
- New (DVD): AI Scanner has now different settings, "Disabled", Automatic" or
"Enabled"
- New (DVD): Added warn message, if logging is enabled.
- New (DVD): Added support for new protection, e.g., "Mr. Woodcock", R1, US
- New (DVD): Added support for new copy protection, e.g. "Paheli", R2,
Germany
- New (DVD): Added support for new copy protection, e.g. "Whisper", R2,
Germany

It would seem that the AI Scanner is not yet flawless and still is being tweaked for new protections. Not being involved with Slysoft, I have no idea what changes were required for those protections, but, they are changes. So, it would seem the goal of having AnyDVD not need to have updates to handle new protections isn't there yet. I'm sure things will improve over time, but, for now, we have the same situation where updates are required.

[setarip_old]

we have the same situation where updates are required.That's pretty much what I was speculating, when I initially questioned the "new technology" of both DVDFabHDDecrypter's "PathPlayer" and AnyDVD's "AI Scanner" a couple of months back, when the concepts were first announced.

Perhaps someone can come up with a different concept in ripping DVDs, at least 1:1 copies - e.g. Remove CSS and then do a pure sector copy, without even looking at .IFOs...

[SamuriHL]

Can't we already do that with AnyDVD and CloneCD?

[setarip_old]

I don't know. Can either one, alone, do what I proposed?

[SamuriHL]

No, certainly not. CloneCD can't remove CSS, and AnyDVD doesn't do 1:1. But together I think they would work fine for what you're proposing. I could be wrong, however, which is why I asked the question.

[blutach]

ISO Mode.

Regards

[Wombler]

@setarip_old

It would seem that the AI Scanner is not yet flawless and still is being tweaked for new protections. Not being involved with Slysoft, I have no idea what changes were required for those protections, but, they are changes. So, it would seem the goal of having AnyDVD not need to have updates to handle new protections isn't there yet. I'm sure things will improve over time, but, for now, we have the same situation where updates are required.

Was the primary goal not to make updates easier with the additional benefit of potentially reducing their frequency?

Perhaps that's why they're able to include so many updates in a single release without having to issue multiple individual fixes over a longer period.


Wombler

[setarip_old]

@Wombler

Hi!Was the primary goal not to make updates easier with the additional benefit of potentially reducing their frequency?No, not according to the publisher.

As quoted at PC Mag online:"The AI Scanner in AnyDVD is a new, pro-active copy protection circumvention method," said Giancarlo Bettini, SlySoft's chief executive, in a statement. "It allows the user to make safety backups of his DVD movies even if the newest anti-piracy technology is used. It is our belief that the AI Scanner will even work on protections yet to be released, so we see this as a future-proof technology. This is indeed a hard nut to crack for the copy protection industry."

[SamuriHL]

I gotta go with setarip_old on this one, Wombler. I think the intent was to get something as close to the "r4m gold standard" as possible. Look at how well that works on protections that came out after the last release. Yes, there are now protections that it can't handle but that didn't happen until 4-5 months after the last r4m update. So I think the INTENT is to get it to a state where it no longer HAS to be updated for new protections. It's a difficult goal to achieve and I'm sure they'll continue working towards it. I have to believe, though, that the AI scanner has made making the updates a LOT easier on the Slysoft development team. I really don't know, but, it would seem like a good bet. I think it's mostly tweaking the scanner at this point when issues are found. That's simply my opinion, of course.

[Wombler]

I gotta go with setarip_old on this one, Wombler. I think the intent was to get something as close to the "r4m gold standard" as possible. Look at how well that works on protections that came out after the last release. Yes, there are now protections that it can't handle but that didn't happen until 4-5 months after the last r4m update. So I think the INTENT is to get it to a state where it no longer HAS to be updated for new protections. It's a difficult goal to achieve and I'm sure they'll continue working towards it. I have to believe, though, that the AI scanner has made making the updates a LOT easier on the Slysoft development team. I really don't know, but, it would seem like a good bet. I think it's mostly tweaking the scanner at this point when issues are found. That's simply my opinion, of course.

I must admit it has amazed me just how long it has taken other companies to get close to the standard set by RipIt4Me.

It shows how exceptionally good that software was and the longer it's still effective the more my admiration for it increases.

Still there's been some great work going on recently and hopefully it won't be too long before we have tools as invincible as RipIt4Me was at the time.


Wombler

[SamuriHL]

I must admit it has amazed me just how long it has taken other companies to get close to the standard set by RipIt4Me.


That's exactly the point and why I think setarip_old created this thread. I think he wanted to see how close they've come in "reproducing" the results of r4m's longevity. I can't speak for pathplayer, but, AnyDVD's AI Scanner is not quite there. Yet. Again, I think it's a lofty goal that will require some more tweaking before we get there.


It shows how exceptionally good that software was and the longer it's still effective the more my admiration for it increases.


Exactly. That's why we call it the "gold standard". There's only one protection type that I'm aware of that can make it fail. That's simply amazing considering we're rapidly approaching the year mark for when it was killed. So yes, it's natural that other software is going to be held up against r4m to see how it compares.


Still there's been some great work going on recently and hopefully it won't be too long before we have tools as invincible as RipIt4Me was at the time.

Wombler

This thread is not aimed at diminishing the work that's been done on AnyDVD or DVDFab HD Decrypter. I think it was setarip_old's intention to more get a "state of the union" if you will. Sort of a check point to see where we're at now that both technologies have been on the open market for a few months. It was a question of "did they actually achieve the goal of having a future proof ripper, or did we fall short?" We're not trying to take ANYTHING away from the accomplishments of either software, as they both absolutely rock, but, the unfortunate fact is that no, we're not quite there...yet. The key here is that both software packages are still evolving and improving, so, they may yet achieve their goal with each tweak and revision. They're learning, and while it's not "AI" just yet, I think eventually they can both get there. Slysoft never ceases to amaze me with what they accomplish. The people they have working for them are truly skilled at what they do. I can't speak for Fengtao and crew but I see the great number of people using DVDFab HD Decrypter and have to think that it's also an amazing product written by people who are also talented. When you have those kinds of people working on this problem, eventually it's going to get to where we'd like them to be.