How to Deinterlace MPEG-2 without loss of quality through reencode?

[Undead Sega]

Hi everyone, kinda new here, and very interested in these kind fo things, i just know this and that, but what really gets to me is deinterlacing.

i know how to deinterlace, dont get me wrong, but i have meny MPEG-2 sources, either froma DVD or ones i recorded myself at a certain quality and they all happent o be interlaced (50i most of the time) and want themt o be deinterlaced back into MPEG-2, but even when i set the bitrate to CBR and usually higher than the oringally bitrate of the source, i always see a loss in quality and this is something i want to try and avoid, cause i am always editing, and even when i convert them to a lossless avi source and even edit with them (deinterlace, cut, split etc.) i will still loose quality when encoding them backto MPEG-2.

i was wondering (up to my knowlege) wheather there is a way whatsoever? i am using TMPEGEnc to encode stuff and always have settings to the highest quality.

i would really appreciate it if anyone can help me on this.

thanks.

[Undead Sega]

anyone at all may i ask?

[microchip8]

Hi everyone, kinda new here, and very interested in these kind fo things, i just know this and that, but what really gets to me is deinterlacing.

i know how to deinterlace, dont get me wrong, but i have meny MPEG-2 sources, either froma DVD or ones i recorded myself at a certain quality and they all happent o be interlaced (50i most of the time) and want themt o be deinterlaced back into MPEG-2, but even when i set the bitrate to CBR and usually higher than the oringally bitrate of the source, i always see a loss in quality and this is something i want to try and avoid, cause i am always editing, and even when i convert them to a lossless avi source and even edit with them (deinterlace, cut, split etc.) i will still loose quality when encoding them backto MPEG-2.

i was wondering (up to my knowlege) wheather there is a way whatsoever? i am using TMPEGEnc to encode stuff and always have settings to the highest quality.

i would really appreciate it if anyone can help me on this.

thanks.

re-encoding will always degrade quality a bit, no matter how high your bitrate is set... also, deinterlacing will do the same as most deinterlacers are far from perfect

best thing is to just re-encode it interlaced or if you really want to deinterlace them, then use a motion compensated deinterlacer. Not sure which ones are available on Windows, but on Linux with MEncoder, there's mcdeint combined with yadif=1 or yadif=3 (yadif=3,mcdeint=0:0:10,framestep=2)

[Undead Sega]

i see then, so there is no way to literalyl retain the quality after doing manipulation on the actual file? for example, ripping from a miniDVD (recorded froma a camcorder) and then editing it and so on?

and i havent tried yadif yet, but i have tried TomsMoComp and MCBob, as well as NNEDI.

[Video Dude]

Instead of re-encoding let the player deinterlace. Software DVD players should deinterlace the mpeg-2 file automatically or use a player like VLC where you can select deinterlace options from the menu. You could even set FFDShow to be the default mpeg-2 decoder and let it deinterlace.

[Undead Sega]

well i need the MPEG-2 file to be deinterlace for editing and then back to MPEG-2 or DVD, and i want to do this without loss of quality (besides from the deinterlacing).

[Zarxrax]

Most video editing software is designed to edit interlaced video.

[Undead Sega]

Most video editing software is designed to edit interlaced video.

i am very aware of that, i have even edited myself on interlaced video, but as we all know, it isnt the best experience.

also, when editing, i go through alot, e.g. resizing and image stablization. this causes unfixable technical problems within the video and will look horrible without a doubt, thus why i need to retain the quality and have it deinterlaced using Motion Compensation most likely.

[cweb]

i am very aware of that, i have even edited myself on interlaced video, but as we all know, it isnt the best experience.

also, when editing, i go through alot, e.g. resizing and image stablization. this causes unfixable technical problems within the video and will look horrible without a doubt, thus why i need to retain the quality and have it deinterlaced using Motion Compensation most likely.
I find the best is to re-encode interlaced after editing using avisynth scripts. Then let the player deinterlace. Results are good enough for me.

[Undead Sega]

i dont think u quite understand, i need for the footage to be deinterlaced, otherwise an unfixable error will occur.

i will demostrate by saying, that when applying a certain filter or plugin, it 'must' at least zoom into the image by 5 pixels, and if this was done on an interlaced image, the deinterlacfing of an interlaced image will itself be destroyed, and it is most prefered to edit as well on a progressive video too.

my concern here is to find the way of havina source that itself is an MPEG-2 and manipulate and back to MPEG-2. OR manipulating the file itself without reencoding.

[scharfis_brain]

why do you need to zoom in by 5 pixels?

if you zoom, you have to tell the zooming filter to operate interlaced. then it won't destroy the image.

[cweb]

i dont think u quite understand, i need for the footage to be deinterlaced, otherwise an unfixable error will occur.

i will demostrate by saying, that when applying a certain filter or plugin, it 'must' at least zoom into the image by 5 pixels, and if this was done on an interlaced image, the deinterlacfing of an interlaced image will itself be destroyed, and it is most prefered to edit as well on a progressive video too.

my concern here is to find the way of havina source that itself is an MPEG-2 and manipulate and back to MPEG-2. OR manipulating the file itself without reencoding.
I think I'm understanding you.
I don't get this kind of error you are getting.
Are you sure you are seperating the fields properly as recommended to process filters for an interlaced clip?
I have to ask as perhaps that's why you are losing the interlace.. The way I do it I still can deinterlace afterwards on a PC or on a dvd player, with no problems.

[Undead Sega]

well i found a similar example here that is discussed:

http://forum.videohelp.com/topic343121.html

either way, i am knowlegable on how to deinterlace, i will plan to use yadif after some recommendations and looking at this:

http://guru.multimedia.cx/2006/06/

also, i read somewhere about a MPEG-2 been virtually lossless, maybe that is something im after, know anything about it?

[cweb]

also, i read somewhere about a MPEG-2 been virtually lossless, maybe that is something im after, know anything about it?
Increasing the bitrate is one way it can be done and perhaps using a custom matrix too IMHO..

[Undead Sega]

well because it is intended from a DVD back to DVD (after editing and manipulation), i have already taken it to the highest DVD bitrate (9800kbs) and it still looks very similar to bitrates like 8000kbp and so on.

[Undead Sega]

i also now kinda wonder how it goes for HDV, as that records as an MPEG-2, and that quality is an issue, thus when it comes to edit that material and then back to MPEG-2, there will bwe a decrease in quality and will literally lose detail on what the HDcam has captured.

if i didnt mention, i use TMPEGEnc, encoders like CCE and so on, can they do a better job?

[scharfis_brain]

yes they can.

[cweb]

yes they can.
Try hc encoder too.

[Undead Sega]

really? looks like i thougth wrong, because i heard around that they are on par as TMPEGEnc gives access to every bit of setting to an MPEG file that u want to set. can CCE and HC provide that as well?

also, what kind of image quality can they output compared to the original?

[scharfis_brain]

also, what kind of image quality can they output compared to the original?

As with any encoder: always worse.

[Undead Sega]

i see, well, isnt there a way where encoding an MPEG file where it will be bit by bit identical to the oringal? like also hearing about a 'lossless' MPEG-2?

i know that sounds silly, but i really need to find a way to encode something fro an MPEG 2 file and back without the loss in quality. abit like when compressing a DVD where its transocding.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

MPEG-2 is lossy by it's nature. It's impossible to re-encode in a lossless way!
"bit identical" is impossible if you edited/filtered the video. Even with a lossless video format!
And if you didn't edit/filter the video, there's no need to re-encode...

[cweb]

really? looks like i thougth wrong, because i heard around that they are on par as TMPEGEnc gives access to every bit of setting to an MPEG file that u want to set. can CCE and HC provide that as well?
HC can for sure.

[Undead Sega]

HC can for sure.

just like TMPEGEnc?

also, can it provide excellent quality MPEG-2 files better than TMPEGEnc itself and CCE perhaps?

also, how close would the results be compared to the oringal after encoding back to MPEG-2 at high quality settings (nevermind the filesize as i have a500GB hard drive anyways :D)

[scharfis_brain]

try yourself!

[Undead Sega]

will do dont worry, just wanting to make sure fo things but yet nto wanting to irratate you lot. i am appreciative of course!

:D

[cweb]

just like TMPEGEnc?

also, can it provide excellent quality MPEG-2 files better than TMPEGEnc itself and CCE perhaps?

also, how close would the results be compared to the oringal after encoding back to MPEG-2 at high quality settings (nevermind the filesize as i have a500GB hard drive anyways :D)
Quality is subjective.. what I think is good quality might not be the same to you..
Best thing is if you try them all and see what suits you best.

I like it better than TMPGenc.
Check out this thread for a test:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=131390

I use hcenc with a custom HVS Best Picture matrix, which helps improve quality too. Also hc uses smp now.

[Undead Sega]

i see then. well i will give HCEnc a try definately, but i also have been reading abit on Transcode, which is somewhat a similar process to encode.

i could be going in the wrong direction, but can it be possible to use transcode for this sort of needs?

[henryho_hk]

Another direction to approach the problem is tell ppls what are the filtering or editing you need and let us see if they can be performed in Avisynth in an interlaced manner.

[Undead Sega]

but when it is done thorugh AviSynth, it would have to be outputted to whatever file, thus if it was MPEG 2, again, there will be a degradion of quality.

[cweb]

but when it is done thorugh AviSynth, it would have to be outputted to whatever file, thus if it was MPEG 2, again, there will be a degradion of quality.
Not really, I never noticed any degradation.
I processed a lot of footage lately (hc encoder / avisynth using filters too) and produced mpeg2 files, both normal and archive (higher bitrate)... they look perfect to me and other people I've show it to..

[Undead Sega]

has anyone tried TMPEGXpress 4? i used it to make an MPEG 2 file, and it really does look great, especially when encoding from a lossless source, the results look astonishing.

the kinda conludes to me that TMPEGXpress4 has a new encoding that is fast and more effiecient, and looking at the results, comparing 2 identical frames from a lossless and a MP2 compressed, there is a very minor difference, of course when using a nice bitrate of CBR 9000kbps, although i might try using a higher bitrate at 9800kbps (as when i always encode high bitrates on TMPEGEnc Plus, the video will always choke on a DVD player).

sorry yet i havent tried HCEnc, will get at it. either way, has anyone tried TMPEGXpress4?