invisible 32 kB gap from PGCedit

[meRobs]

I have begun using VobBlanker and PGCedit after ripping with DVDFab.

When I set the 32 kB min gap between IFO and BUP in VobBlanker the gap is 'visible', for example, a previously non-existent VIDEO_TS.VOB becomes 74 kB. Even though it is always much larger than 32 kB (?), at least I can see it. Unfortunately, I would then use DVDshrink to compress and this kills these files/padding (unreferenced material). So I rely on PGCedit!

I use PGCedit to tidy up navigation, say, and then burn via ISO (ImgBurn) with the 32 kG gap set. In this case it would show "pad was 16 for VIDEO_TS.IFO". However, every attempt to see the extra padding fails, all files are as they were - some still small or zero!

So, my question: does PGCedit merely leave the files unchanged but place these files in the ISO so that when on a disc there are empty gaps between the files (rather than padding the files larger as VobBlanker would do)?

Thanks
(Despite my confusion, these Apps are superb!)

[blutach]

Welcome to Doom9.

If you have already run the VobBlanker routine, the 32k gap option in PgcEdit is meaningless - the gaps are already more than 32k and in fact are spaced correctly so the IFO and BUP are opposite each other on the disc (this is the preferred way to do things IMO).

If you haven't used the VobBlanker routine (and there is not 32k between the IFO and BUP), PgcEdit will change the various start sectors in the IFOs and place the files in the ISO accordingly with appropriate padding. This can be verified using ISOBuster.

Regards

[r0lZ]

In one word, the answer is yes.

But note that you don't need to use PgcEdit to create those "invisible gaps". You can use ImgBurn v2.x to burn directly the VIDEO_TS folder. It has exactly the same option than PgcEdit, and if it is on, it uses exactly the same method. IMO, PgcEdit's burn function is now outdated, and I will not improve it or maintain it any more.

[meRobs]

Thanks guys (hope I got this right: Les and rIOZ?).

Let me recap:
* VobBlanker will pad the VOBs to avoid the gap problem,
* DVDshrink will then NOT remove the gaps (???) when it compresses,
* adjustment can then be made in PGCedit (change navigation, etc, such as jump to Movie on DVD insert),
* finally, I can directly burn the VIDEO_TS folder with ImgBurn,
* if there are insufficient gaps between IFO and BUP pairs, ImgBurn will shift pointers to give the required min gap.

Is this correct
Thanks
Robin

[blutach]

I would do the VobBlanker step as the last one before burning. While DVD Shrink does not remove unreferenced material, it may reduce their size. VobBlanker calculates the sizes of the files needed on your finished DVD project.

And if you do this, neither PgcEdit nor ImgBurn will have 32k gaps to include.

Regards

[meRobs]

rOIZ: thanks for your comment on the direct use ImgBurn. Are you also saying that ImgBurn is also out dated?

Les, does your latest comment mean I cannot be as efficient as I would like?

Since VobBlanker is required before compression and I would often like to use PGCedit to modify navigation, etc, I had chosen to use it just before the burn, relying on its ability to set min gaps. (2 birds with one stone.)

To use VobBlanker after DVDshrink, to set min gaps that PGCedit would also do, means opening this App twice!

Do you prefer to apply VobBlanker twice (are there other advantages in doing this)?
Robin

[blutach]

Not at all. Just re-author your commands in PgcEdit, blank unwanted stuff in VobBlanker, transcode your project in DVD Shrink or whatever and open it again in VobBlanker. From the menu, select Adjust Sectors - In Input Folder (takes about 1 second to do) and on you go to ImgBurn (www.imgburn.com).

ImgBurn is anything but outdated. PgcEdit's burn function is not being updated as ImgBurn does everything we need.

Regards

[meRobs]

Thanks Les, that clears that up!

I was getting confused because PGCedit and VobBlanker seem to have many shared features, especially, blanking. And in some cases PGCedit seems better because of its helpul warnings and it can indirectly delete files (changes pre- and post-Cmds to kill referencing a PGC, which can then be deleted, via fixVTS). This is cleaner (no VTS_*_1.VOB file) but more time consuming than in VobBlanker (leaves bigger VOBs, but still insignificant for a DVD).

Now I think I will do all the blanking in VobBlanker, and Adjusting the Sectors, as you suggest. In any case, now that I use DVDFab Decrypter, which can set initial play to start at the Movie, I need PGCedit only in difficult cases.

I may change my mind once I get my head around both these two great Apps you guys and Gals have created.
Thanks
Robin

[r0lZ]

VobBlanker is handy to blank at the cell level, and it can replace a still menu background by a BMP image, strip streams, cut cells to add chapters, etc...

But PgcEdit is better to kill playback, especially if you need to kill a menu with buttons. Another difference is that you can blank from the trace mode, so that you can easily find the cells to blank. Also, it can kill and blank a whole title or menu domain in one click and instantly, without having to copy the files. It can also remove angles, and whole titlesets easily. Other edits are possible with PgcEdit, such as jumping directly to the main menu upon DVD insert.

So, which program to use depends of your needs. Usually, I begin by modifying the navigation and removing useless stuff with PgcEdit, and I use then VobBlanker if I need to change menu backgrounds, cut cells or strip streams. Shrink is the last app I use, but I reload always the DVD in PgcEdit, as Shrink has a bug that PgcEdit detects and fix when loading the DVD. Finally, I burn with ImgBurn, sufficient to create the gaps. However, if you want to use a less good burner app, such as Nero, you have to create the padding sectors with VobBlanker, as they will be taken into account by all burning apps anyway.

BTW, ImgBurn v2 is certainly not outdated, and LUK! is still very active to develop new features. But ImgBurn v1, that was used by PgcEdit to burn the ISO is now outdated, as it cannot burn the DVD-Video files directly, and cannot create the gaps.

[setarip_old]

@r0lZ

Hi!Shrink has a bug that PgcEdit detects and fix when loading the DVDWhat is the nature of this bug?

[r0lZ]

Well, there are two bugs in Shrink.

When there are several VOB IDs in a Title PGC, the number of VOB IDs stored in the VTS_C_ADT table by Shrink is always 1. This is not very important, but it is better to fix that number anyway. This bug is automatically fixed by PgcEdit.

Also, when Shrink builds a compilation of more than 49 titles in re-author mode, the first-play PGC is completely messed up, and the DVD is totally unplayable. To fix it, you have to remake the authoring manually, or automatically with the DVDShrink plugin.

[setarip_old]

@r0lZ


Thanks for the insight ;>}

[meRobs]

Thanks r0IZ. Now I am swinging back towards PGCedit!?

It seems that VobBlanker works with the VOBs and is easy to use since its interface clearly offers to blank entire Titles, any PGC and any Cell (also trim). It can blank cells in a Menu if no buttons. It can also Adjust Sectors.
But IFO commands are left untouched!!?

On the othe hand, PGCedit works with IFO files. Yet, it seems to be able to blank at least as much as VobBlanker (?), but is more complicated. It can blank an entire VOB set (Title), blank out a single Cell from a Title (PGC editor), can blank a menu (need to redirect buttons) or even delete a menu. Using Trace, parts of a menu may be blanked (transition clip, warning, an unused sub-menu, etc). However, I find it confusing - never sure whether to rely on the warnings and whether I need to use FixVTS or VobBlanker to tidy up, etc.

When bits are blanked in PGCedit, am I right in assuming the blanked out bits will still be there, taking up space, and the replacement blanks are 10 kB additions to the VOB? Or will the original, replaced sections of VOB be removed leaving only the 10 kB blanks when opened again in VobBlanker and processed or treated with FixVTS??

Is it also true that bits are UNreferenced only if 'deleted' and that such unreferenced bits will be removed automatically by FixVTS or VobBlanker -- no need to seek them out first?

Please help to clear up ALL these points
Thanks.
Robin

[r0lZ]

VobBlanker has an option to kill playback of the PGCs it blanks (called something like "copy post to pre"). Note that it is still possible that the navigation gets corrupted in some rare cases, either when the killing is made with VobBlanker or PgcEdit, but the method used by PgcEdit is somewhat more sophisticated and should work better in those difficult cases.

When PgcEdit blanks a whole menu domain, it can remove the VOB file completely, or replace it by a tiny VOB cell. For the Title domains, a VOB cell is always necessary.

Similarly, PgcEdit can convert a menu PGC to a dummy, using no cells at all. When a single Title PGC or a single Menu or Title cell is blanked, it is always replaced by a tiny cell, that is added at the end of the current VOB file. The original cells are not automatically removed. If you blank later another PGC or cell in the same domain, the same VOB cell will be reused (unless you use the option to create a new cell, available only in the PGC editor). Therefore, normally, PgcEdit adds never more than 10KB per domain. (VobBlanker creates a new cell per blanked cell.)

The VOB cells that have been blanked are unreferenced (unless they are used by another PGC.) You can easily remove them with FixVTS or VobBlanker. FixVTS is faster if you use the "in place" option, but there is no backup. Both are equally good to do that job.

You can even use FixVTS or VobBlanker to remove the cells of the angles stripped by PgcEdit (despite the warning about interleaved cells issued by VobBlanker.)

[meRobs]

This is a heavy topic for a novice like me, but, I'm getting there thanks to r01Z and Les.

To summarise the comments by r01Z in my words:
1) we must consider separately: (a) whole Menu or Title Domains (VOBs?), (b) Menu or Title PGCs and (c) Menu or Title Cells.

2) each of the above may be blanked in PGCedit, which means the original material is still present and is replaced by a 10 kB cell at the end of its VOB. Kll Playback may also be added to skip the Play of even this brief cell (10 kB is < 1/10 sec).

3) a Full Menu Domain is special: its VOB may be completely deleted in PGCedit

4) a Menu PGC is also a special case: it can be converted to a dummy (no cell just IFO entries), but still present.

5) all material (PGC or Cell) that has been blanked by PGCedit is unreferenced and will automatically be deleted by fixVTS (unless needed by another PGC).

6) when PGCs or Cells are blanked in VobBlanker, the original material is deleted, since the App has immediate access to the VOBs, and 10kB cells remain, one for each blanking. The IFO commands point to the blanks instead.

r01Z, one last question: when I first used Kill Playback there were warning popups that I deleted (don't show again) and I would like to see them. but, I can't recover them. Do I need to re-install PGCedit?

Thanks VERY VERY much
This is becoming very interesting and PGCedit is more powerful than I first thought!
Great job.
Regards
Robin

[kumi]

r0lZ thought of everything:

Options | User Interface | Restore all hidden dialog boxes ?

[meRobs]

kumi: I had tried that but it didn't seem to work at that time. It does now though?! Maybe I was put off by the fact that the check (tick) doesn't remain!
Thanks

[r0lZ]

(10 kB is < 1/10 sec)Not exactly. There is only one black frame in the 10KB VOB cells, that's right. However, the duration of a cell must be at least 12 frames long, so the same frame is played during approximatively 0.5 second. Furthermore, since the cell is usually not seamless with the previous or next one, an additional pause is often needed. The playback of those tiny cells is therefore relatively long. Hence the usefulness of Kill Playback.

Kumi is right. It's the way to reset all hidden dialogs.
However, there is another way: If you use the "Display hidden dialog boxes during current session?" option, you will see the hidden dialogs, with the "Hide this dialog" checkbox ticked. Just untick the checkbox of the dialogs you want to permanently unhide.
Note that the dialog displayed by PgcEdit when you blank a domain, PGC or cell might be different in different circumstances.

[blutach]

Please also remember that VobBlanker makes backup files that can be used to restore your whole project. And a cell blanked (or a PGC marked as a dummy) in PgcEdit is not removed from the VOB - you need VobBlanker or FixVTS for that. PgcEdit only marks the cell for blanking. The exception is when you blank an entire domain with Ctrl-Delete.

And finally, the "1" in r0lZ is a lower case L :)

Regards

[blutach]

@r0lZ

Hi!What is the nature of this bug?

When there are several VOB IDs in a Title PGC, the number of VOB IDs stored in the VTS_C_ADT table by Shrink is always 1. This is not very important, but it is better to fix that number anyway. This bug is automatically fixed by PgcEdit.The problem with the C_ADT table is is only in re-author mode, IIRC.

Regards

[meRobs]

Thanks Les and r0lZ (sorry about the 1).

Sorry to stress these issues, but, I am close to a reasonable understanding!

So, can someone please confirm that all 6 statements I made previously are essentially correct, except for the 0.5 sec/10kB.

And confirm that all items blanked in PGCedit will automatically be deleted from their VOBs by fixVTS and that VobBlanker will do the same merely by opening and closing, or maybe just 'Adjust Sectors'. Or, do I need to Process?
Thanks again
Robin

[blutach]

You certainly need to process in VobBlanker to remove unreferenced material (items you marked to blank in PgcEdit). However, if PgcEdit has blanked a whole titleset, there's no need for VobBlanker.

The Adjust Sectors is a final touch, as I explained earlier.

Other than that, I reckon your statements 1-6 are pretty much on the right track. What you need to do now is experiment a bit and see what happens. You will note that blanking whole titlesets (either menu or titles domains using Ctrl-Delete) in PgcEdit saves heaps while blanking a single cell or PGC saves nothing until you have run FixVTS or VobBlanker. Play around and see what you can do - you can't break anything and the backup system is so good, you can restore right back to the original rip.

http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/gl2.gif

Regards

[r0lZ]

The problem with the C_ADT table is is only in re-author mode, IIRC.
That's right. Sorry for the confusion.

[meRobs]

Thanks a lot Les. I will do a lot of experimenting and I hope to find more reasons for using VobBlanker since its interface is more intuitive.

But, my FINAL query -- back to the original point of this Thread: setting 32 kB min gaps in VobBlanker gives padding in the VOBs that are even larger, but, they are visible and give me confidence.

However, the same feature in ImgBurn causes gaps between files and are invisible to me. So, can I really rely on ImgBurn to give the gaps when burning VIDEO_TS folders??

Regards
Robin

[jinjin_jp]

ImgBurn surely creates 32KB gap.

It can be confirmed by reading IFO files, but a little complicated to tell.
The easy method which I usually use is DVDDecrypter, though it needs burned disc or mounted ISO.
1)Burn DVD or createand mount ISO.
2)Start DVDDecryper.
3)Start "program debug mode" by click F6 key.
4)Re-select drive which is of dis or mounted ISO, if not start.
5)Sector of each file is shown in log.

Regards.

[r0lZ]

Jinjin is right. You can also examine the starting sectors with tools like IsoHunt.

Anyway, in this forum, I have never seen somebody complaining about ImgBurn. Don't worry. It's an excellent program, and it does what it says, including the gaps. I have verified myself, as I have helped LUK! when he was writing that part of his code, and the similar technique to place the layer break of DLs correctly.

[meRobs]

Thanks Jinjin and r0lZ.
I have just checked that this is so. I removed a VIDEO_TS.VOB file from a VIDEO_TS folder and burned the folder to DVD+R and to an ISO file, both with ImgBurn. In each case, in DVDdecrypter there was a gap of 16 sectors (LBAs). I also tried a disc with a 20 kB VOB: its ISO had a 6 sector gap.
Great, I can now trust it!!
Great Forum and Regards
Robin

[blutach]

Great, I can now trust it!!
You don't come from Missouri, do you? You really can trust the work of someone like LUK! (and r0lZ and jsoto and jeanl and jdobbs and all the other fine programmers who are here at Doom9).

Regards

[meRobs]

Australia, not Missouri! Being a Physicist, I trust 'things', but, only after testing.

Keep up the good work.
Regards
Robin