My First BD-R (4.7), Stuttered Video, no Audio

[BassPig]

My wife bought a Sony BDP-S301 yesterday and naturally, wanting to see if I could output some of the HDV content we produced this year on a mini-BD disc using 4.7GB DVD-R media, I set to work on trying to create a 'test' DVD to play, containing 18 minutes of hi-def source material.

I mastered several projects in Premiere Pro CS3 at HD resolution, so it was just a matter of selecting a project and selecting 18 minutes of hi-def footage and exporting to Adobe Media Encoder, using the Blu-print preset at 24FPS, 35mb/S, 1920x1080, NTSC. I exported the audio as 16/48 LPCM.

I had some issues with Adobe Encore, which I Googled and found solutions for. Eventually, I ended up with a BD image folder, containing my project.

I fired up Nero and burned them as a DVD-ROM, UDF 1.2 file format.

Hot off the burner, I inserted this DVD into the Sony BD player and to my utter shock and surprise---it recognized the disc and began to play! Only problem was that the video stutters badly and there's no audio.

I went back to the 00000.m2ts file that was in the burn folder and played it in Media Player Classic. The file plays smoothly... but there's no audio. The bitrate is shown as 35mb/S by MPC.

The 00000.m2ts is a few kilobits larger than the SUM of the size of the LPCM file and that m2v file that were used as assets in Encore to make this burn folder. That suggests to me that the audio IS in there, but for some reason, is not being played.

Pressing the Display button twice on the Sony S301 revealed interesting clues: The bitrate displayed was around 10.16-10.8mb/S---far below the 35 that the file is encoded at.
What I think is happening is that the S301 is seeing this disc as red laser DVD media and spinning it at regular DVD speeds--thereby limiting frame rate to about 8-10fps. The player can read the m2ts transport stream, but it isn't spinning the disc fast enough (or the disc sector density isn't high enough) to to play at full frame rate.

I have heard in the recent past about successful efforts at making BD-Rs that play in Playstation III units, but what wasn't clear was whether that was 4.7GB media or not.

Is it possible to make a 'mini-BD" disc that plays properly, or am I dreaming of the HD-DVD mini that is talked about in the Mac community?

[v_o_r_t_e_x]

Hi there

I'm also trying to create "valid" High-Def Movies.

So far I figured out that there are manly three different possibilities:
- BD-R (BD-RE)
MPEG2, VC1 or H264 content
- BD9 (DVD with a Blu-Ray structure)
MPEG2, VC1 or H264 content
- DVD+-R (DVD+-RW) (with AVCHD structure)
H264 content only

Since Blu Ray burners are quite expensive, DVD is my choice.
So I have two options: BD9 or AVCHD DVDs

The problem with HD content on DVDs is the speed. You already mentioned
that 30mbit videos will not be played smoothly.
For the AVCHD DVD it is specified that the video must not exceed 18mbit /s.

So far I know two tool which allow to create AVCHD DVDs:
- Nero Vision
- Ulead DVD Movie Factory 6 plus & HD Pack

I managed to create a working (on the PS3) AVCHD disk with
Nero Vision. It's very simple.

What I do not know (maybe someone can help me) is the difference
between the BD9 and the AVCHD structure.
For example Adobe Encore CS3 can only create real blu ray
discs. But if you burn this content to a DVD, Blu Ray players
will not implicitly play it.
To be more precise:
What is the difference between:
- BD9 DVD containing H264 video and AC3 sound
- AVCHD DVD containing H264 video and AC3 sound

vortex

[BassPig]

So you would concur that the limiting factor is the TPI density of the media, given a 1X rotational speed?

But a DVD9 with a BD-R structure would suffer the same 10.08mb/S limitation, would it not?

This all suggests that BD-R structured DVD5/9 discs would have to be limited to 10.08mb/S in order to achieve proper playback.

I read an article that mentioned that the DVD5 would have to be spun at 3X speed to achieve adequate data rates. My guess is the player spins all discs at 1X, so 35mb/S encode rates aren't practical for DVD-R media with BD-R structure.

'Been looking at the price of dual layer BD-R drives, and they are still hovering around the $995 mark. Set top players have plummeted in price of late... Costco had this particular Sony for $479 up till about Thanksgiving, then they dropped it to $379, and this week they had a 4-day special with an instant -$100 rebate at the register, so ours ended up costing $279.

[PaulKroll]

"3x DVD" (HD DVD on a DVD9) specifically runs the DVD at triple speed to get the right bitrate.

But "BD9 (wikipedia entry) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#BD9_.2F_Mini-Blu-ray_Disc)" is the same thing, on Blu-ray, so in theory, you shouldn't be seeing stuttering because of lack of bitrate. Unless the player isn't doing that, or if the true rate is actually 35 Mbs AND the PCM track, that'd probably be enough to cause trouble even if it was running at triple-speed.

The easiest way to know if this is a bitrate issue might be trying a lower bitrate... either bring it down to 10Mbps, set res to 720p, or cut back to 25-30Mbps and see how that one works.

[BassPig]

The reason that I suspect the Sony player is running at 1X rotational speed is because the Display function that shows current bitrate is showing maximum rates around 10.4. Since the video is encoded VBR with an avg b/r of 35 and the audio is LPCM, this does not surprise me.

But I also must draw attention to the fact that this test disc is NOT a BD9. I am using plain old 4.7 DVD-R media from TDK here. Is it possible that BD players have a special mode that triggers when DVD-9 (dual layer) recordables are inserted having BDMV disc structure, causing them to spin the disc at 3X rates? Perhaps this 'mini BD' format only works with dual layer DVD-R and not single layer?

As an interesting note, a day after I burned this disc, which, minutes after the writing, would not play at normal speed at all, and played NO audio, now plays with normal speed AND audio for 4 seconds, before slowing down. I assume it's the player buffering up the disc, though it is interesting to note that the readability of the disc seemed to improve drastically after 24 hours... perhaps the disc needed to 'cure' for a day?

[EiGuscheMa]

The reason that I suspect the Sony player is running at 1X rotational speed is because the Display function that shows current bitrate is showing maximum rates around 10.4. Since the video is encoded VBR with an avg b/r of 35 and the audio is LPCM, this does not surprise me.

My Sony S300 does exactly the same.

I think the drive is just speed limited, but there is no way to change that.

So burning to real BD-R and BD-RE now is the way to go for me. :)

Even 35 Mbps will play fine from BD-RE: the limit is 40 Mbps.

[BassPig]

Thanks for the input. I think I'm going to spring for a BD burner this month. I'm looking at the new Sony BWU-200S. They claim 4X burn speeds and dual layer capability. I did read an article that claimed the burn speeds are only possible with the bundled software, so generic applications will take two hours to burn a 25GB disc. I am skeptical of this assertion by the author of the article however.
Anyone using the BWU-200S and can relate the experience with it?
Can Nero even drive such a burner? Will I need a whole new suite of apps?

It DOES look like the BDMV structure that Encore wrote is valid--and just the disc's low density that limits the 1X rotational bandwidth severely. My disc is a 4.37GB media, not a dual layer, so that might also be a factor.

But I'm starting to see some realistic prices for the BWU-200S and am considering taking the plunge. I need to start developing a reliable BD workflow, as the higher end clients are going to be expecting it. First step is to see if I can even produce playable discs, then move on to menu featured discs and so on.

Any input on the burner and speed issues that may or may not exist, would be greatly appreciated.