HDDVD/Bluray to x264 bitrate savings?

[onesloth]

Firstly, my understanding is that most HDDVDs are encoded in VC-1 or h.264 (not mpeg-2). Is this true of Blurays as well?

If that is the case, can reencoding these AVC sources with x264, to a nearly transparent quality (without resolution reduction), result in significantly smaller file sizes?

[Blue_MiSfit]

Absoltely. I've done it with several of my HD-DVDs. I re-encode using x264 to a DVD9 filesize (along with a DDP track re-encoded to AC3 using eAC3to and Nero).

I'm honestly quite impressed

~MiSfit

[ACrowley]

When you get Quantizers around Slice P ~ 20 its 100% Ok and Transparent enough, imho
Sometimes a 9 mbps Bitrate for 1080p is enough, sometime its need over 11mbps... it depends on the Source

[Dark Shikari]

When you get Quantizers around Slice P ~ 20 its 100% Ok and Transparent enough, imho
Sometimes a 9 mbps Bitrate for 1080p is enough, sometime its need over 11mbps... it depends on the SourceIt also depends on whether you intend to retain grain or not.

[onesloth]

It also depends on whether you intend to retain grain or not.
Sure. I don't really mind the way x264 cleans up the grain. I mean... I love film grain and all but it's just not worth it. Guess it's not really transparent then but the grain loss doesn't look like detail loss to my eyes.

Sometimes a 9 mbps Bitrate for 1080p is enough, sometime its need over 11mbps... it depends on the Source

What kind of bitrates are most AVC HDDVDs?

[Sagekilla]

Sure. I don't really mind the way x264 cleans up the grain. I mean... I love film grain and all but it's just not worth it. Guess it's not really transparent then but the grain loss doesn't look like detail loss to my eyes.



What kind of bitrates are most AVC HDDVDs?

I don't personally know, but I can tell you HD DVD's have a maximum transfer for video @ 29.4 mbps whereas Blu-ray has a 40 mbps limit.

[ACrowley]

It also depends on whether you intend to retain grain or not.

ofcourse..as i say it depends all on the Source
Blackhawkdown Bluray/300 HDDVD ...= lot of grain.
So we need higher Bitrates.
I suggest to use the Prestige (Matrix is used in Bluray Titles like Prestige/Xmen3) Quantizer Matrix
It preserves Grain perfectly

#Prestige CQM

INTRA4X4_LUMA =
6,7,10,16,
7,7,11,17,
10,11,12,20,
12,13,20,16

INTRA4X4_CHROMAU =
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16

INTRA4X4_CHROMAV =
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16

INTER4X4_LUMA =
10,13,28,41,
13,14,32,84,
28,32,41,111,
41,46,111,16

INTER4X4_CHROMAU =
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16

INTER4X4_CHROMAV =
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16,
16,16,16,16

INTRA8X8_LUMA =
9,9,10,10,11,16,21,29,
9,9,10,10,11,16,21,29,
10,10,10,10,11,16,22,31,
10,10,10,11,11,17,23,33,
11,11,11,11,11,19,25,36,
12,12,13,13,14,20,27,40,
15,15,16,16,21,27,31,45,
20,20,21,22,36,40,45,16

INTER8X8_LUMA =
12,13,15,18,20,70,163,255,
13,13,16,18,20,72,170,255,
15,16,17,19,21,81,190,255,
18,18,19,21,23,96,228,255,
20,20,21,23,25,120,255,255,
33,34,36,39,45,32,255,255,
64,66,71,80,164,255,255,255,
151,155,169,192,255,255,255,10

HDDVD AVC Bitarte :
Example : Transformers HDDVD AVC is max @ 30Mbps

[Dark Shikari]

ofcourse..as i say it depends all on the Source
Blackhawkdown Bluray/300 HDDVD ...= lot of grain.
So we need higher Bitrates.
I suggest to use the Prestige (Matrix is used in Bluray Titles like Prestige/Xmen3) Quantizer Matrix
It preserves Grain perfectlyPrestige is a great way to completely screw up x264's efficiency :p

[Sagekilla]

Prestige is a great way to completely screw up x264's efficiency :p

Indeed, something I learned the hard way. Custom matrices seem to be a very good way to screw up x264 in crf mode as well.

[onesloth]

Prestige is a great way to completely screw up x264's efficiency :p
Yeah, when I've tried some of Sharktooth's CQMs for blocking, in crf mode, I get better, more effecient, results by just using a lower crf without the CQM.

If I use the CQMs in crf mode and then do a second encode with 2-pass, matching the crf encode's file size, without any CQM, but with AQ (even really strong like 0.5 & 5), I get better results with the AQ encode.

[ACrowley]

Prestige is a great way to completely screw up x264's efficiency :p

Most people i know are using Prestige Matrix for AVC HDDVD/BluRay encodes...

Im very satisfied with the Results.
I used it on all my 2pass VBR 1080p x264 encodes with Quantizers around 18 -22 and AQ 0,3

[Dark Shikari]

Most people i know are using Prestige Matrix for AVC HDDVD/BluRay encodes...

Im very satisfied with the Results. Grain preserving is great.
I use it on all my 2pass VBR 1080p x264 encodes with Quantizers Slice P around 18 -22 and AQ 0,3You can retain grain using anything as long as you throw enough bitrate at it ;)

[Tack]

Prestige is a great way to completely screw up x264's efficiency :p
Could you elaborate a bit on this? I use Prestige myself because it was my preference on self-administered blind tests (at fixed bitrates of course).

[tyee]

Hey guys, a general question, I will start to backup my HD-DVDs but right now I'm not sure what to include in the avs file. I have my DirectshowSource line with the .grf file, but are any of you removing the telecine flags that make it 29.97 on the HD-DVD disk? I haven't seen anyone say how they are doing it with VC1 sources. A few have said they leave it as 29.97fps and that works but plays back on a PS3 as 1080i, not 1080p.

With a HD-DVD AVC source I hear it's not possible to get 23.976fps, at least no one has made a tool for that yet. I must be missing something, if lots of you guys have been doing this?

[Sagekilla]

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I use Prestige myself because it was my preference on self-administered blind tests (at fixed bitrates of course).

See this thread: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=124755&highlight=Prestige&page=2

Scroll down til you see the comparison of Prestige vs other matrices (including default flat) and you'll see prestige produces an odd line structure. I've done testing myself and found that using constant rate factor, prestige ends up sucking up a ton of bits, throws out ugly artifacts, and visual quality isn't that much better.

[Dark Shikari]

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I use Prestige myself because it was my preference on self-administered blind tests (at fixed bitrates of course).Are you sure its not the deadzones producing the improvement, rather than Prestige itself? :p

[ACrowley]

Hey guys, a general question, I will start to backup my HD-DVDs but right now I'm not sure what to include in the avs file. I have my DirectshowSource line with the .grf file, but are any of you removing the telecine flags that make it 29.97 on the HD-DVD disk? I haven't seen anyone say how they are doing it with VC1 sources. A few have said they leave it as 29.97fps and that works but plays back on a PS3 as 1080i, not 1080p.

With a HD-DVD AVC source I hear it's not possible to get 23.976fps, at least no one has made a tool for that yet. I must be missing something, if lots of you guys have been doing this?

Set in your avs AssumeFPS(=23.976).. thats all :)

For VC1 and H264 HDDVD Sources

Itsa PulldownFlag . For VC1 you can remove the Pulldown Flag with VC1conv

[Sagekilla]

You should use Assumefps(ntsc_film) or Assumefps(24000,1001) actually. Those are the correct forms to use for film rate.

[tyee]

@ACrowley and Sagekilla

So I don't need to use an ivtc filter like TIVTC.dll?

[ACrowley]

@ACrowley and Sagekilla

So I don't need to use an ivtc filter like TIVTC.dll?

NO ! It can cause Frameskips/Judder/ and its not smooth

1. demux Video with Evodemux
Note the "calculated Framecount" Value

2. grf :
Filesource(async)SonicHDDemuxer-SonicCinemasterVideoDecoder4.3

3. AVS
Directshowsource("c:video.grf,audio=false,fps=23.976-,framecount=xxxxxx)

4. encode

Note:
-You need the Framecount Value because the Decoder cant determinate the correct Framecount.
-FPS=23.976 is the same as AssumeFPS
-You cant seek the AVS with SonicDecoder
When you need seeking you can :

1. remux the EVO propertly to mkv with h264tsto ( it will do all Steps autom)
grf : HaalimediaSplitter-WMVideoDecoderDMO #for H264 -ffdshowVideoDecoder

2. Demux the VC1 and use VC1conv to remove the Pulldown

For Bluray Video :

Its simple. The Video is already 23.976. You can encode directly from the m2ts

Greets
-Crow

[tyee]

@ACrowley

Thanks for the info, much appreciated. I'll give it a try!

[Roppy]

@ ACrowley

"For Bluray Video :

Its simple. The Video is already 23.976. You can encode directly from the m2ts"


But.. what's the graphedit looks like when it's a m2ts?
and which sonic codec should be installed? Sonic 4.2 or 4.3?
Each time i used the sonic 4.3 it simply can't encode anything.

thanks

[Roppy]

i'm working on supermans return. BR disc... and well.. if i encode the first 5000 frames it'S ok, from 5000 to 10000 its encoding "snow" (like the hbo logo)

I'm going crazy! eheh
Any codec to install? any threads talking about all the filter/codec we need to install to successfully achieve a blu-ray disc? (except for audio, i can encode my audio without problem)