Strange subtitle behavior with DVD RB

[Calimari]

I wonder if somebody has had this problem with DVD RB.

The movie I processed with DVD RB stops showing the subtitles when chapter 12 starts. I have this problem in my standalone and on the pc with Cyberlink PowerDVD. To see the subtitles again, I have to use the remote and scroll through the subtitle languages until I reach "off". After that, the first selected subtitle track shows up again. Another way to show them again is skipping back to the beginning of chapter 12. Chapter 12 is the chapter where the layer break is in (see attached screenshot). DVD RB doesn't remove the layer break. IfoEdit shows that the layer break is in cell 21 (also visible in PgcEdit as the seamless joint flag is not set). So, to check if the problem is layer break related, I did a full DVD9 backup of the original files with 3 tools: DVD Shrink, CloneDVD and DVD RB. No further editing was done, all audio and subtitle tracks were left in. Both transcoders remove the layer break, the STC discontinuity flag remains. Their results play fine. The result of DVD RB gives me problems with the subs. But when I use the (layer-stripped) ouput of Shrink or CloneDVD as the source for DVD RB, the problem occurs again. Also, the result of DVD Shrink with the "remove layer break" option unchecked, plays fine, so I don't think the problem is layer break related.
I compared the ID's of the subtitle tracks of the backup to those of the original disc, and I can't find any differences.
I don't know if this is important, but the first subtitle that "disappears" is one that has to be shown on top of the screen.
Oh, I use DVD PRO 1.26.5 and I'm a registered user.


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[blutach]

Hi Calimari. Long time, no see.

Check in DVDSubEdit the timing of the output from DVDRB from chapter 12. I can not imagine the mux is bad, especially since you can see the subs after pressing previous on the remote but this is a real good check.

Is this problem with a physical disk playing? If so, it may be media/burn related - test by playing the output files (not a burned disk) on a good software player.

Finally, does this happen with more than one DVD?

Hope you have a great festive season.

Regards

[Calimari]

Hi blutach, thanks for the nice words :)

Now, I'm pretty sure that my problem is not media/burn related, because:
1 - the problem also occurs when playing from HDD in PowerDVD
2 - I burn on good TY media and wasted a spindle on determining optimal writing conditions (don't tell my wife!). Also, I did tests with DVD-RW and I got the same problem.
3 - this movie is the only one that gives me problems
4 - I found something weird when following your DVDSubEdit suggestion :)

So, I found something strange in DVDSubEdit. You were right, from chapter 12, there is something strange going on with the subs.

The first subpic of chapter 12, in the original files, has these specs:

Subpic# = 340 (19 in stream)
StreamID = 0x24
LBA = 50971
V/CID = 1/20
PTS = 346040258
Duration = 1.880s
TimeCode: 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,440
DCSQT: 0
Set Color: e2=12 e1=13 p=14 b=15
Set Transparency: e2=15 e1=15 p=15 b=0
Set Display Area: sx=102 ex=617 sy=42 ey=68
Set field indexes
Start
End of commands
DCSQT: 1 -- Delay 1.880s
Stop

The same subpic of the DVD RB backup has these specs:

Subpic# = 340 (19 in stream)
StreamID = 0x24
LBA = 50944
V/CID = 1/19
PTS = 346040258
Duration = 1.880s
TimeCode: 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,440
DCSQT: 0
Set Color: e2=12 e1=13 p=14 b=15
Set Transparency: e2=15 e1=15 p=15 b=0
Set Display Area: sx=102 ex=617 sy=42 ey=68
Set field indexes
Start
End of commands
DCSQT: 1 -- Delay 1.880s
Stop

As you can see, the time code of the subs is identical, but the V/CID is wrong. I guess this means that the player is searching the subtitle in the wrong cell? VOB/Cell ID 1/19 is the last one of chapter 11.
I've checked the previous sub (the last good one), and this time both V/Cell ID's match.

Thanks blutach for pointing me in the right direction, I finally located the problem!
I guess this is something that jdobbs should know about?

[blutach]

No, probably what has happened is that DVDRB has eliminated a tiny unreferenced cell (eg 1/1) and changed all the VCIDs and LBAs (although your PgcEdit screenshot shows it as 1/20 - I guess that's the original). Check the cell tables.

The commands and PTS are OK (this is the timing of the sub at around 1 hour and 4 mins) and you can probably see the subtitle displayed against the frame in DVDSE. Ignore the time code - I guess you only opened the VOB and not the full domain.

The question is - if you can see the sub displayed on the frame in the DVDRB output, then it's there and is correct. Something else is causing the issue.

Regards

[Calimari]

The screenshot of PgcEdit was indeed taken from the original files. But that doesn't matter. PgcEdit gives me the same cell table when I open the DVDRB backup, with exactly the same VOB/Cell ID's. Chapter 12 starts in 1/20, in both cases.

Now, this time I opened the fulll domain in DVDSE, first the original and then the DVD RB backup. Everything matches, except V/CID (and LBA). Yes, I can see the subtitle displayed on the frame in DVDSE, but it's on the wrong frame. In the second screenshot you can actually see V/CID 1/19 in the background, exactly as the subtitle info mentions. So in DVDSE also, the sub is displayed wrong. It should show up over cell 1/20. (The blue square is mine).


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[blutach]

Right. Certainly looks like something is amiss. Perhaps the mux is not right. Do one more test. Demux the DVDRB output and remux it with muxman. See how that goes.

Sorry, I can't be of more help. This is one for jdobbs.

Regards

[Calimari]

Perhaps the mux is not right. Do one more test. Demux the DVDRB output and remux it with muxman. See how that goes.


The subs are shown correct in that case. But demuxing/remuxing gives a totally different celltable (only one chapter as I didn't insert chapter data in Muxman), so I guess Muxman uses the timecode of the subs. You were right, it seems like DVD RB didn't mux the streams correctly. It assigned V/CID 1/19 to sub 742, while it should have been 1/20.



Sorry, I can't be of more help. This is one for jdobbs.


I guess this is the point where he has to take over. I wanna thank you for bringing me this far. Your help is appreciated.

[blutach]

Demux with a celltimes.txt using PGCDemux. Use the celltimes.txt as input to muxman for the remux. That should create chapters.

Regards

[Calimari]

Hm...
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[blutach]

Hmm indeed. Were there any dropped frames?

Regards

[Calimari]

No, I guess I would have seen a warning in that case?

Here's the log:

[General]
Total Number of PGCs in Titles=1
Total Number of PGCs in Menus=17
Total Number of VobIDs in Titles=3
Total Number of VobIDs in Menus=9
Total Number of Cells in Titles=35
Total Number of Cells in Menus=14
Demuxing Mode=by PGC
Demuxing Domain=Titles
Total Number of Frames=206455
Selected PGC=1
Number of Cells in Selected PGC=35
Selected VOBID=None
Number of Cells in Selected VOB=None
[Demux]
Number of Video Packs=3071554
Number of Audio Packs=327691
Number of Subs Packs=40394
Number of Nav Packs=16964
Number of Pad Packs=0
Number of Unkn Packs=0
[Audio Streams]
Audio_1=0x80
Audio_2=0x81
Audio_3=None
Audio_4=None
Audio_5=None
Audio_6=None
Audio_7=None
Audio_8=None
[Audio Delays]
Audio_1=0
Audio_2=0
[Subs Streams]
Subs_01=0x20
Subs_02=0x21
Subs_03=0x22
Subs_04=0x23
Subs_05=0x24
Subs_06=0x25
Subs_07=0x26
Subs_08=0x27
Subs_09=0x28
Subs_10=0x29
Subs_11=0x2A
Subs_12=0x2B
Subs_13=0x2C
Subs_14=0x2D
Subs_15=0x2E
Subs_16=0x2F

I only selected one audiostream and one subtitle stream to mux.
I didn't get this message when muxing without chapter info.
I'll try again and do a full mux.

[Calimari]

Here are the celltimes:

476
1031
2989
8013
12804
22381
27346
32157
38604
39860
43637
48010
48086
52152
56052
65065
74476
84504
96102
96941
103418
110680
120292
128128
138787
139227
143656
149561
157896
168164
177176
188062
194257
206443
206455


I did get a warning about chapter 35 being very short, I'll try again and skip chapter 35.

[Calimari]

That didn't work. I get the same error.

[blutach]

Try muxing in the lot, just like DVDRB would do.

Short chapters are not a problem.

Regards

[Calimari]

In the lot?

[Calimari]

Nevermind, I used IfoEdit to mux the streams. Everything works fine now, except the subs being green (no CLUT).
But the subtitles show up where they are supposed to. I hope jdobbs takes a closer look at this issue.

[Calimari]

Well, I'm still stuck here. I can't make a decent backup of this movie with DVD-RB. I realise this is probably a rare case, but it would be nice if jdobbs would take a close look at it.

In the meantime, merry Christmas to you all.

[jdobbs]

I'll look at it... but I'm a very definitely confused. Since subtitles are passed through unedited by DVD-RB (except for the LBA of course) -- I'm not sure how a change in the VOBID/CELLID is even possible. I have to believe something else has changed it... but I'll look to be sure.

[Calimari]

Thank you, I appreciate that.

I've doublechecked and let DVD-RB do the same movie again. But the same problem occured. The rip is made with AnyDVD and the original files play fine from HDD. If you want me to do some additional test, please let me know.

[blutach]

Have you tried the rip with something else?

Regards

[Calimari]

Have you tried the rip with something else?


I did now. I tried some recent and also some obsolete rippers (the disc isn't heavily protected). All files play fine from HDD and show the subtitles correctly. But, then I used each rip to process with DVD-RB (DVD9 to save time). Every backup has the same subtitle problem when played from HDD (PowerDVD)

Since subtitles are passed through unedited by DVD-RB (except for the LBA of course) -- I'm not sure how a change in the VOBID/CELLID is even possible. I have to believe something else has changed it...

Well, then I have some weird news. I did a little test. As mentioned before, I used a fresh -unedited- rip to process with DVD-RB, using DVD9 format. The ripper doesn't matter, I tried several. First I compared the IFO's of original and backup in IfoEdit. The VTS_C_ADT's doesn't show any changes, so the VOB and Cell ID's are identical.
Then, I used VSRip to extract the subtitles to idx/sub format. I've attached the idx's of the original rip and the DVD-RB backup (saved as txt files). If you open them in notepad to compare, you'll see something very strange. The first subtitle already has the wrong Vob/Cell ID (00:00:19:040). Further, it seems like DVD-RB (or whatever) moves every first subtitle of a Vob/Cell ID to the previous Vob/Cell ID. Except with Vob/Cell ID's 1/11, 1/14, 2/1 and 2/6. In 2/13 it even moves the first two subtitles (notice the very short interval).



Now, I first noticed the subtitle problem while watching the movie with Dutch subtitles selected. So I only ripped this stream. However, the timestamps you see in the idx files are those of all streams. I discovered that, if the first subtitle of a Vob/Cell ID is one that has to be showed (the Dutch ones in my case) AND it is moved during the backup, the problem occurs and the player doesn't show the subtitles anymore in that whole Vob/Cell ID. I used DVDSubEdit to browse to the first subtitle of each Vob/Cell ID (using the timestamps of the idx files). I selected the Dutch stream in DVDSubEdit so only those are shown. The first one that showed up was the first subtitle of Vob/Cell ID 1/11. But since this one isn't moved (see above), it shows up correctly during playback. Same thing with 1/14. Then it happens, I reach Vob/Cell ID 1/20. The first subtitle of it is moved to 1/19. This is where the player stops showing the subtitles (the Dutch ones in this case).

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So I'm pretty sure that something went seriously wrong during the rebuild stage of DVD-RB (or wathever engine it's using).

[Calimari]

I did that same idx-test with another movie, same procedure. Everything went fine this time. So DVD-RB has problems with that one specific movie.

[Calimari]

I have another movie which shows something strange with the subtitles. This time, the subs aren't shifted between Vob/Cell ID's, but every timestamp is raised by 80 millisecs. It's not noticeable when watching the movie, but it doesn't seem right to me. It's obvious that something seriously goes wrong when DVD-RB extracts the subs and remuxes the streams. I assume both is done during the rebuilding stage?

The attached textfiles are the idx files from the original and the DVD-RB backup.

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[jdobbs]

That isn't unusual at all. It simply means the timing for the movie has been shifted. It can happen in the remux for good reasons.

You've found a single specific movie that has an anomaly that probably isn't related to DVD-RB at all -- as I've said, I'll definitely look at it -- but a single instance on a single movie isn't a high priority. Looking for other non-existent problems or continuing to bring this thread to the top of the queue isn't going to help..

It's obvious that something seriously goes wrong...

I disagree. If it were serious you wouldn't be able to say:

It's not noticeable when watching the movie...

[Calimari]

You've found a single specific movie that has an anomaly that probably isn't related to DVD-RB at all

I feel a little offended by that statement. I see something wrong with the subtitles in a DVD-RB backup. I post it, and another forum member gives me some help to locate the problem. One week later, you say you find it hard to believe that something is wrong with DVD-RB because it only passes through the subtitles and that something else is causing the problem. I send you a PM with some additional info, but you don't answer. Today, after another annoying post of me, you repeat your statement by saying that DVD-RB probably has nothing to do with it, even before you examined the case because it isn't high priority. So, to convince you that I'm not imagining things, I did a few more tests. I took the first movie (the one with the wrong V/C ID's) and I made a backup with another version, free version 0.98.2. Then I installed both versions, pro and free, on another machine (fresh XP install) and started all over. In all 4 backups, the subtitles were wrong (wrong V/C ID's). I also tried different rip methods and used nothing but DVD-RB to make the backup. So, if this fails on 2 different machines, and the problem is not DVD-RB related, tell me, what is causing it then? I agree, this is probably a very exceptional case, but it's there, DVD-RB fails to make a proper backup of that particular movie. I don't know what is causing the problem, I'm not the expert that you are. What I do know for sure, is that the problem is DVD-RB related.

Looking for other non-existent problems or continuing to bring this thread to the top of the queue isn't going to help..


I'm not looking for non-existent problems. It's just, after a failed backup, I wanna verify my next backups to see if something went wrong or not. That's how I saw the changed timestamps. If you say that's a normal thing, I don't have a problem with accepting that. I only posted that because I thought this info could be useful in the search to solve the V/C problem. My intention was not to bring this thread on top again. You don't respond to a PM, so when I think something is relevant, I post it here. I'm sorry if you hate to see this thread on top again, but that's what happens when people add something to it.


I disagree. If it were serious you wouldn't be able to say:

I probably didn't make myself clear there. I meant the problem with the wrong V/C ID's, which IS noticeable and very annoying. If the subtitles stop to show up in the middle of the movie, in my eyes, that's a failed backup, thus a bug in the tool that made it.

One last thing, I have the impression that you're annoyed by my thread. My intention was not to shoot down your software, but to bring up and help to solve a possible problem. I always liked DVD-RB, it's a fine program, that's why I purchased it in first place. This is the first time I'm having problems with it. I'm not an expert on your level, so if I post something irrelevant, just inform me about it and I'll accept. But I don't accept reactions à la -that's impossible, you're imagining things, I'm sure everything is fine- when I'm sure there is a problem.
You don't want me to bring this up again, so I won't do that. If you do plan to examine this case, as you said before, thank you for that. If you need more info or more tests, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards.

[jdobbs]

I said I'd look at it, and I will. If there is anything that is proven in these forums it is that I always do what I say I will and I take bug reports seriously. If it is a bug -- I will fix it.

The problem is that I have to give priorities to anything I work. One issue on one specific disc can't be a priority. When I say it probably isn't DVD-RB, I mean it -- I am saying that there is very possibly something anomalous in the disc... it happens. I've seen other discs (K-19 is a good example) that had authoring errors in the original. They may not surface in within-the-compressed domain programs like DVD Shrink because they don't really reauthor -- they just change some flags, remove some information and rewrite...

I certainly wasn't trying to offend you.

[Calimari]

I certainly wasn't trying to offend you.
Neither was I. I apologise if I left that impression.
I realise this is a one in a million case, and it doesn't have the highest priority. And I never had doubts about your devotion to these forums, I've read many interesting posts from you in the past.

Now that things have been said...
You have a good point there. Comparing DVD-RB to programs like DVD Shrink isn't very reliable, as they don't reauthor -demux and remux- like DVD-RB does. And that's probably where the problem appears, in this case. I'll do some further research on my side, and concentrate more on the original disc and the demux-remux aspect. Maybe extracting the streams of the main movie and remuxing them to replace the original vob's before I let DVD-RB handle the disc brings something up. Anyway, I hope you don't mind me to post some more info if I have (or think I have) found something.

[blutach]

What I find interesting is post 16 - the remux with IfoEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/IfoEdit) made things OK.

Regards

[Calimari]

Yes, but that was extracted from the DVD-RB backup, en remuxed to a new dvd, which played fine. Now, I'm gonna demux the main movie, remux new vob's and insert them in the original dvd, then process with DVD-RB.

[blutach]

Sorry to revive this thread, but I'd like to say that I experienced the same issue today on an albeit, heavily edited, DVD.

Some subpics changed their VCID to the earlier one (PTS was OK), just like post 3, so the first subpic at the start of a cell was not displayed. Now, the subpics reappeared when the next subpic came along that was coded in the correct VCID, but I guess I'm just confirming the problem. It's definitely there but difficult to spot as it occurs intermittantly and you wouldn't even notice it unless you have the subpics turned on.

Regards

[Calimari]

Nice to see that someone else has experienced this bug. (Blutach, I didn't expect anything else from a DV-guru like you, what took you so long :))

You're absolutely right, this bug is a real pain in the ass, as it can stay underground almost unnoticed, because:
1) only users who have their subtitles on will notice it
2) not all players suffer from it (PowerDVD and my standalone do, MPC doesn't)
3) it happens rather occasionally, on a few movies (btw, my tests were done with un-edited rips)

So I guess that the chances of running into this are very low. But, it arises now and then, as you noticed.

I have to add the following: Blutach, you've also noticed that the V/CID of the problematic sub was changed, just like in the example I used (Transformers) However, in another movie were I had the same subtitle problem, the V/CID was NOT changed. At that point, the confusion in my head was total :) Could this mean that the changed V/CID is an indicator but not the reason of the problem?

[blutach]

What was changed in the other movie you had problems with?

Regards

[Calimari]

What was changed in the other movie you had problems with?


It had the same problem with subtitles, they just disappeared at a certain chapter. I had a look at the subtitle info with DVDSubEdit but this time the V/CID of the first "disappeared" subtitle wasn't changed (like it happened in Transformers) So, an unchanged V/CID is not a proof that the subs are ok in this case. I couldn't find anything strange in DVDSubEdit so the only way to discover the problem was watching the movie. I always had the Dutch subtitles selected, I don't know if it also happens with other subtitle languages.