Archos 605 AVC Level

[Ranguvar]

Does anyone know what kind of options the Archos 605 supports in its AVC playback (with plugin)?

http://www.archos.com/products/gen_5/archos_605wifi/index.html

[Ranguvar]

Bump.

[HowlerX]

Seeing as you're a patient man, send me your Archos 605 and I'll encode a bunch of test clips and test them out and I'll let you know what worked. PM me for address.

Seriously though have you tried contacting Archos? Seeing as they specifically tout podcasts for their H.264 plugin, I wont expect much. It'll probably play anything Quicktime can play minus high-def Quicktime trailers. No idea if it supports b-frames or CABAC or any other advanced features.

Good luck finding out.

[Chainmax]

This IS the AVC forum and x264 HAS an Archos profile, so the question is perfectly suitable here. Besides, how many of the questions you asked in this forum did you check with the original manufacturer of the product you were asking about (like, say, the MPEG group about MPEG4 part 10)? I'm guessing 0.

[J_Darnley]

Since when does x264 have any kind of preset profiles? MeGUI has an Archos 605 preset which produces the following in the cmd line section:
--pass 2 --bitrate 1000 --stats ".stats" --level 4 --no-cabac --subme 6 --analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4 --vbv-maxrate 5000 --me umh --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "output" "input"

[Chainmax]

I meant MeGUI's Archos profile, of course :o.

[HowlerX]

This IS the AVC forum and x264 HAS an Archos profile, so the question is perfectly suitable here.

Yeah... I never said the dude's question was not "suitable" for this forum.

My post also mirrored the guy's frustration of Archos' complete lack of information regarding their H.264 plugin. I even took some guesses regarding what it supports and checking the little info on their website, I'm probably right. I'm guessing the Archos will support the same format and size H.264 video as a 5th gen iPod will. So that most probably means no B-frames and no CABAC support.

Also my post was actually more helpful than yours. :p

And yes, I've actually contacted manufacturers in the past. Typing a quick e-mail is so easy, why shouldn't I do it? One or two times I actually got a human response for my troubles. Intel and Asus both answered a question regarding their products when I emailed them and I ended up buying their product. Who woulda thought?

And MPEG4 Part 10 (MPEG committee) is a standard not a manufacturer as far as I can tell...

Happy holidays... and junk.

[Ranguvar]

Okay, I got my Archos anyways (thanks for the replies)...

I shall commence testing to see if I can get anything better than MeGUI's profile to work.

[Ranguvar]

Okay. After a LOT of testing, I've come up with a better CLI.

I used a DVD resolution clip, at ABR 2048kb/s.

At said bitrate and resolution, enabling either CABAC or BVOPs will cause stuttering. Of the two CABAC seems to be less intensive. Even 1 BVOP will cause large amounts of stuttering. You can, however, make it 2 max reference frames, and enable Mixed Reference frames while still being playable.

At 1024kb/s ABR, I was able to enable CABAC as well as the 2 refs and mixed refs comfortably. Adding a BVOP caused stuttering. I assume if you downscale the resolution to ~QVGA, you may be able to add it.

Accepting that BVOPs would not be possible, I next decided to see how far I could take CABAC. At 1400kb/s with 320kb/s CBR MP3 stereo audio, there was very noticeable stuttering. Taking away the extra reference did not improve it at all, really.

So there you have it. At high bitrates, just modify MeGUI's profile to have 2 reference frames and mixed refs. At very low bitrates, you can also enable CABAC.

No worries, it's still better than its MPEG-4 ASP, even though that one allows everything except Q-Pel and GMC, and more than 3 BVOPs.

If anyone wants me to test more, just ask :)

--pass 2 --bitrate 2048 --stats ".stats" --level 4 --ref 2 --mixed-refs --no-cabac --subme 6 --analyse p8x8,b8x8,i4x4 --vbv-maxrate 5000 --me umh --threads auto --thread-input --progress --no-psnr --no-ssim --output "output" "input"

Update, that profile above worked flawlessly with a ~1800kb/s 2-pass VBR AVC, 224kb/s VBR AAC-LC video, for 8min straight, as long as the video was :)

[Slammin']

I talked to a techie today before purchasing a new Archos product and thought I'd share this information.

This is for all Archos H264 decoder functions for all generation products :

Profile : 3.0
I-Frames : i4x4
P/B Frames : i4x4,p8x8
B-Frames : No
CABAC : No
Mixed Refs : Yes
Max Refs : 2

Mp3 and AAC audio are supported.

That being said, after many x264 encodes (some successful, some not so successful) I've noticed that the above information is NOT concrete. I've successfully encoded files that play using CABAC, higher profile levels, and max refs set to 3. B-Frames cause stuttering or make the media completely unreadable. The submotion estimation 1-7 seems to work, I haven't tried anything higher. CRF, CQP, and ABR all seem to playback fine.

Another interesting thing I found was I could encode H264 with AC3 5.1 playback with the Cinema plugin installed if I saved the file in AVI format using Virtualdub.

What an interesting idea... instead of selling you standalone units that are outdated within a few years, why not sell you a hard drive (that with a software update) can play any new codec....

[flebber]

So has anyone found a player that does support b-frames. I am searching around for a player. The archos immediately looks the best but as stated above the website product info is subpar.

I will be giving the cowon 02 a further search as this brief review from sheds some hope http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/10/cowon_o2_handson_will_play_your_most_rebellious_media_files-2.html

off a guys post here http://www.cowonamerica.com/forums/showthread.php?p=41623#post41623 this format was playable before he did a firmware upgrade.

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 8 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 23mn 2s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 1 663 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 1 650 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 13.1 Mbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 24.160 fps
Minimum frame rate : 17.982 fps
Maximum frame rate : 29.970 fps
Original frame rate : 23.976 fps
Resolution : 24 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.075
Stream size : 274 MiB (90%)
Writing library : x264 core 66 r1093M 1df50b9
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=8 / deblock=1:1:1 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=9 / psy_rd=0.5:0.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=32 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=16 / b_pyramid=1 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=0 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=1650 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=0
Encoded date : UTC 2009-01-29 21:02:12
Tagged date : UTC 2009-01-29 21:04:43

[Dark Shikari]

so has anyone found a player that does support b-frames.How about a PSP? ;)

[Chengbin]

The Archos 605/5 does support CABAC, b, ref frames.

The 605 had a firmware update that massively upgraded its abililty to decode H.264 files.

The 605 and 5 have the same decoding capabilities right now.

After extensive testing and playing with the settings (thank you Dark Shikari), this is the settings I use to encode all of my videos for my Archos 5. It is basically the maximum setting it can use. The maximum bitrate playable on this profile is about 2000Kbps. Short form, it supports up to L4.1 (I didn't try 5.1), 4 b-frames, 6 ref-frames, P8x8,B8x8,I4x4,I8x8, and b-pyramid. NO HIGH PROFILE

cabac=1 / ref=6 / deblock=1:-1:-1 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=tesa / subme=9 / psy_rd=1.0:1.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=32 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-4 / threads=6 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=4 / b_pyramid=1 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=796 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=25000 / vbv_bufsize=14000 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:1.00

@flebber

There is NO WAY, not in the near future, that the Cowon can play that video. 720p, high profile, 16 b-frames? No. Cowon doesn't support 720p and high profile.

[Sagekilla]

Well it's good it only supports 4 B-frames since (except for anime) it's pointless to use anything higher than that. Same for refs. Hopefully that should deter people from trying to do something idiotic like using --bframes 16 --ref 16..

[SacredCultivator]

Hmm's really as I use 5ref frames mainly cuase most profiles use it =X

Does it make much of a difference between 4 and 5? (In regards to encoding time / along with 'quality difference'?)
{But then again, I don't use Archos 605 AVC =X}

[Sagekilla]

Reference frames? Beyond 4 or so, it's -usually- not a huge difference in quality or size. Unless you're encoding anime, anything over 4 is mostly useless.

[SacredCultivator]

Hehe never touched Anime, so I guess I'll drop it from 5 to 4 and try that.

[Slammin']

[QUOTE=Chengbin;1247700]The Archos 605/5 does support CABAC, b, ref frames.

That's interesting I own a 404 and a TV+ and neither of them like b frames. It makes the devices stutter during playback. I talked to a
techie before I purchased the TV+ and was told that there were no differences in decoding as long as I had the latest firmware.

The 605 had a firmware update that massively upgraded its abililty to decode H.264 files.

I noticed that the TV+ does a much better job decoding.

The 605 and 5 have the same decoding capabilities right now.

The techie said that they're all the same with the plug-in.

After extensive testing and playing with the settings (thank you Dark Shikari), this is the settings I use to encode all of my videos for my Archos 5. It is basically the maximum setting it can use. The maximum bitrate playable on this profile is about 2000Kbps. Short form, it supports up to L4.1 (I didn't try 5.1), 4 b-frames, 6 ref-frames, P8x8,B8x8,I4x4,I8x8, and b-pyramid. NO HIGH PROFILE

cabac=1 / ref=6 / deblock=1:-1:-1 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=tesa / subme=9 / psy_rd=1.0:1.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=32 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-4 / threads=6 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=4 / b_pyramid=1 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=796 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=25000 / vbv_bufsize=14000 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:1.00

<saving for future experimentation>