New codec AVS on CH-DVD, aka HD-DVD for China

[Golgot13]

Little post to have some info about AVS format use on CH-DVD standard.
CH-DVD is a new HD format which use HD DVD support disc (15GB or 30GB).
I saw that it's like H264 but with 30% less CPU used (block 8x8, 8x16, 16x8
and 16x16; no 4x4 or 4x* or *x4). But no more new than they eliminate lot of patent,
they change the algorithm !!!!

This codec AVS have the support of China and it use or will use on 3G and HD TV Broadcast.
It will use in Olympic Game 2008: strange because some friends who work in satellite broadcast
company said me they tested H264 broadcast system from and to China with China broadcast companies ???

CH-DVD don't use HDi (exit MS format) and AACS (local encryption with AES128bit).

[Valeron]

since lack of CABAC, 4x4 block size, less aggresive loop filter...etc, efficiency wise(if u r insane for the bitrates), not on par with AVC(in terms of PSNR...).
take a look into their RM encoder(reference encoder for AVS), it show less efficiency compare to AVC main profile in their comparison(though close enough they say...but for u insane guys it's never "close")
btw, their RM encoder is just a mod JM borrowed from JVT, they choose the tools they want, tweak the codes for their algo, modification mostly concentrate in the bitstream module(u know why)
so the comparison would be quite "fair", the "same" encoder shows that for SD resolution it's far inferior to AVC main profile(because lack of 4x4 block size i think), but in HD era it'll shine, very close in PSNR or even outperformance. but imo, it can't stand a chance after AVC got FRext.

last but not least, patent free is a good thing, right? maybe someone are not as insane as u and me, they don't care if they could screw over the last 0.x or 1db, for them it's not bad an option. another piece of news maybe, afaik they're working on a new X(eXtension) profile in order to match up to AVC high profile.

Mainconcept had show their AVS SDK in the IBC, maybe they've got more words for it.

[Golgot13]

Mainconcept had show their AVS SDK in the IBC, maybe they've got more words for it.

Yes you're right. I have the doc paper taken in MC IBC stand.

Do you know when the CH-DVD will be available in China?
Do you know if some player will available in Canton Fair ?
( may be I will go after Ceatec, Taitronic and HK electronics Fair)

Can you say more about AVS and CH-DVD?
It is or it will be with CH-DVD like SVCD with DVD?
No iHD, no AACS, there is weblink, ..., CH-DVD player can play HD DVD Title (bi standard player CH-DVD and HD-DVD),...

[Valeron]

Do you know when the CH-DVD will be available in China?
I'm not sure about this, yet many news sources said there''ll be some players out in Q1 2008. But some argue it may not come out forever....

Do you know if some player will available in Canton Fair ?
nor this... IMHO the Chinese manufacturer don't consider Canton Fair is a good place to show their "High-Tech Digital Entertainment Equipment". They need "exhibition" but not "booth". umm... probably they've got another consideration, the CH-DVD does not meant for foreigners?
I'm out of this business, so someone could come up to correct me if I'm wrong.

Can you say more about AVS and CH-DVD?
It is or it will be with CH-DVD like SVCD with DVD?
No iHD, no AACS, there is weblink, ..., CH-DVD player can play HD DVD Title (bi standard player CH-DVD and HD-DVD),...

for CH-DVD maybe I could just be a translator more than a commenter. few news about this stuff even Googled, just duplications. I've no idea if it's really patent-free like AVS. If so, that should be another great "invention", yes, in the customer's aspect. at least we should save more bucks(theoretically). But wait, let's try to reveal the inside of the story... what's CH-DVD compliant? U still NEED MPEG-2, AVC, VC-1 decoding ENABLED! U can't sell players with just AVS-Enabled! yep, they never talk about the codecs, they mean different physical format(the disc, the laser, different modulation method, non-iHD navigator, AES128 and no AACS...). but again, how can a player become HD DVD compliant? U still need it to include the features within the HD DVD specs, right? then...... those words r left for u smart guys.

AVS is more interesting than CH-DVD imo. The Jizhun(I'd like to translate it into "Main", aka...) profile is finalized and published last year, just the part i mentioned in the last post. If there's good implementation available, it could fit some applications. especially in HD resolution for many pp. moreover as i said before, if u r insane guys, u wanna to squeeze the compression ratio, u should keep ur eyes on the X Profile, it's probably designed to compete against AVC HP. though there's long time no news update for this profile, i'm sure it's under heavily development. its features and tools remain a mystery. looking forward to see how it still can bypass the patents commonly found in the other standards.

If there's news update about CH-DVD and AVS, i'll post here.

[diogen]

If they don't do 4x4, how can they play HD DVD?

Insiders on AVS mentioned that MPEG-2 license is $2.50 and VC-1 and AVC "a fraction" of it. What do they save then?

Diogen.

[Golgot13]

Yes, I know that Canton Fair is only for foreign export.
Do you think CH-DVD is like new SVCD (SVCD was a Chinese format to replace DVD in 1999-2000).
I think it's nice opportunity to HD-DVD format to decrease the price of HD DVD player
(same optical disc format, same video decoder chipset except AVS,...).
Nothing about audio format, there is AAC or HE-AAC on mandatory audio codec ?


Valeron thank you for your answer.

[foxyshadis]

It's patent-free in the same way my income is tax-free, I guess. Stick it to the man and rake it in while you can, go underground (or get bought out) when they put the heat on.

[Valeron]

This codec AVS have the support of China and it use or will use on 3G and HD TV Broadcast.
It will use in Olympic Game 2008: strange because some friends who work in satellite broadcast
company said me they tested H264 broadcast system from and to China with China broadcast companies ???
i'm sorry i missed this post. i'm here for some corrections.
AVS-M(aka the Mobile Profile, it's quite different to the Main Profile) is recommended for 3G, but not sure if someone will really use it. CNC is the one who steadily support AVS. They've tested AVS for their IPTV project for a long time. But not every ISP/telecomunication provider r interested in AVS. China Telecom initially focused their eyeballs on AVC. In the very beginning their labs show hardly any interesting to this domestic standard. But now, they've tested it and say "it's another option for their application(IPTV)" . CCTV, they're still broadcasting their HDTV in MPEG-2. No news to update to new generation codecs. China Mobile test both AVC baseline and AVS-M via GPRS/EDGE and CDMA1x, their result was quite good. But all these company haven't finally decided which one to be used in their system(except CNC maybe), all r on going test. So ur news sources is right, AVC system is an options for most of them nowadays.

Yes, I know that Canton Fair is only for foreign export.
Do you think CH-DVD is like new SVCD (SVCD was a Chinese format to replace DVD in 1999-2000).
I think CH-DVD is not a SVCD-alike toy.
SVCD can't be forward compatible with DVD, but CH-DVD is mandated to be compatible with HD DVD.
SVCD can only do half the DVD resolution, but CH-DVD can do everything the same as HD DVD, up to 1080p.
SVCD is only capable of 700M storage, in contrast to DVD, which is 4.7G single side single layer, but CH-DVD is identical to HD DVD in terms of storage capacity.


I think it's nice opportunity to HD-DVD format to decrease the price of HD DVD player
(same optical disc format, same video decoder chipset except AVS,...).
Nothing about audio format, there is AAC or HE-AAC on mandatory audio codec ?
Golgot, I've finally understood ur intentions for all these questions. Yes, I think Toshiba is smarter than Sony when playing this game. Chinese manufacturer r always doing a good job in cutting the prices of some "High Tech Toys" down dramatically. Who will bother PS3 or any other BD players when they can get a $99 HD DVD compliant(probably HDMI output supported is listed in the manual...) player while only several titles r BD-Only?
Audio codecs support is the same as video, it can do everything HD DVD can do, plus an alternative one:AVS-Audio.

[diogen]

It looks like China is playing the "format war" quite efficiently: whatever side wants to benefit from the "miracle" of Chineese manufacturing would have to play by their rules...

I don't think heat was ever applied to them.

Diogen.

[Valeron]

It looks like China is playing the "format war" quite efficiently: whatever side wants to benefit from the "miracle" of Chineese manufacturing would have to play by their rules...

I don't think heat was ever applied to them.

Diogen.

Anyway, consumers will benefit from it, right? it's no doubt a good news for most guys here on doom9.

[Inventive Software]

Essentially, AVS is a codec that's developed in-house in China to use on HD-DVD discs with low CPU usage. They're not actually HD-DVD discs because of the licensing that's so proliferent in Western society, but the disc technology's exactly the same.

This will prevail in China because nobody wants to be restricted like they would with HD-DVD and BluRay. Will be interesting to see a direct comparison with H.264 and VC-1. :)

[Golgot13]

I think CH-DVD is not a SVCD-alike toy.

Not sure, SVCD use new codec (MPEG2) from DVD on CD disc, because DVD patent and DVD replication
were expensive. CH-DVD use new support disc from HD-DVD but don't use AACS and HDi because patent
are expensive (?)


SVCD can't be forward compatible with DVD, but CH-DVD is mandated to be compatible with HD DVD.

Yes, but "why CH-DVD was introduce": In first time we will see CH-DVD player only,
which is compatible with HD-DVD disc but it can not play HDi and AACS (like in 2000 some SVCD player
only saw in Hong-Kong ). But in second time we will have CH-DVD player which can play HD-DVD Title
(like today DVD which can play SVCD and DVD in China).


SVCD can only do half the DVD resolution, but CH-DVD can do everything the same as HD DVD, up to 1080p.

Yes, but AVS is not more efficient than AVC, I hope it will be more efficent than VC1
(but not sure with MS team and PEP encoder)


SVCD is only capable of 700M storage, in contrast to DVD, which is 4.7G single side single layer, but CH-DVD is identical to HD DVD in terms of storage capacity.

Yes, but I see lot of VCD (not SVCD) when I go in Hong-Kong or Shenzen (especially in market). I'm sure chinese will use DVD disc
for CH-DVD, aka CH-DVD9 (?), like HD-DVD9 with HD-DVD format.



Yes, I think Toshiba is smarter than Sony when playing this game. Chinese manufacturer r always doing a good job in cutting the prices of some "High Tech Toys" down dramatically. Who will bother PS3 or any other BD players when they can get a $99 HD DVD compliant(probably HDMI output supported is listed in the manual...) player while only several titles r BD-Only?
Audio codecs support is the same as video, it can do everything HD DVD can do, plus an alternative one:AVS-Audio.

It is really a good idea from DVD Forum and Toshiba. But I'm not sure it will work.
Today, all HD DVD player (RCA, Venturer and Onkyo) use Toshiba motherboard....
And Shinco produced two year ago a BD player (old version of BD with 23GB per layer).
So I don't know what standard chinese companies will support. And about AVS-Audio:
I think HD DVD (and CH-DVD if it use same audio codec) is really enough (professional hardware
can not do better: 5.1 24bit at 192KHz)

[bond]

my prediction is that AVS wont go anywhere outside China.

from the technical and performance point of view i would like to first of all see an useable encoder. the last preview offered by the chinese company developing this was totally crap

[crypto]

my prediction is that AVS wont go anywhere outside China.

Could be, we will see AVS players at the end of this year, at least in Asia and Europe.

from the technical and performance point of view i would like to first of all see an useable encoder. the last preview offered by the chinese company developing this was totally crap
Did you see SD or HD samples? I saw Kung Fu Hustle SD on AVS SDK version 1.6 and it looked nice. In HD it will look great. AVS has everything other codecs like VC-1 claim: easy decoding and low CPU demand. There are solutions for IPTV, Sat TV, Cable TV, Mobile TV and Storage Media.

[Golgot13]

AVS has everything other codecs like VC-1 claim: easy decoding and low CPU demand.

I remember my old computer with PentiumII and MPEG2 video file, it was very hard.
But two year after and today, MPEG2 is the standard and there is lot of device (handheld, mobil, phone,...)
which can play it. I'm sure for H264 it will be same.

[bond]

Could be, we will see AVS players at the end of this year, at least in Asia and Europe.

Did you see SD or HD samples? I saw Kung Fu Hustle SD on AVS SDK version 1.6 and it looked nice. In HD it will look great. AVS has everything other codecs like VC-1 claim: easy decoding and low CPU demand. There are solutions for IPTV, Sat TV, Cable TV, Mobile TV and Storage Media. i hope you dont see this as an offense, but i will believe this when i am able to test it myself

there is simply too much marketing fud out there

[crypto]

I agree, seeing is believing.

BTW. SDK and codec can be found here: (registration is necessary) http://www.avs.org.cn/fruits/

[Valeron]

Not sure, SVCD use new codec (MPEG2) from DVD on CD disc, because DVD patent and DVD replication
were expensive. CH-DVD use new support disc from HD-DVD but don't use AACS and HDi because patent
are expensive (?)

Chinese need to escape from the patent "trap", imo.
I'm not sure about iHD and AACS but cause of the experience with mass DVD manufacturing, they should learn more to how to deal with the patents within their products. They know more than us how many they've paid for MPEG-LA, DVD-Forum, Thomson, DTS....etc

Here (http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=108&subsecID=900003&contentID=254366) it is a simple explanation.


Yes, but "why CH-DVD was introduce": In first time we will see CH-DVD player only,
which is compatible with HD-DVD disc but it can not play HDi and AACS (like in 2000 some SVCD player
only saw in Hong-Kong ). But in second time we will have CH-DVD player which can play HD-DVD Title
(like today DVD which can play SVCD and DVD in China).

Yes, maybe, but we still can seize an opportunity to get a cheap HD DVD player.


Yes, but AVS is not more efficient than AVC, I hope it will be more efficent than VC1
(but not sure with MS team and PEP encoder)

Tons of AVC implementations r there, I think if half the peple r considering a AVS project that would be ok.

Yes, but I see lot of VCD (not SVCD) when I go in Hong-Kong or Shenzen (especially in market). I'm sure chinese will use DVD disc
for CH-DVD, aka CH-DVD9 (?), like HD-DVD9 with HD-DVD format.

Exactly NO. CH-DVD will only fall into one physical format: HD DVD. Another correction here, DVD is widely accepted for years in China. At least I've watch DVD for 5~6 years and I see Only few contents in VCD is till available. I'm not familiar with HongKong and Shenzhen. Have u ever travel to Apliu Street? In there, u may see so many DVDs.


It is really a good idea from DVD Forum and Toshiba. But I'm not sure it will work.
Today, all HD DVD player (RCA, Venturer and Onkyo) use Toshiba motherboard....
And Shinco produced two year ago a BD player (old version of BD with 23GB per layer).
So I don't know what standard chinese companies will support. And about AVS-Audio:
I think HD DVD (and CH-DVD if it use same audio codec) is really enough (professional hardware
can not do better: 5.1 24bit at 192KHz)

They can produce BD player 2 years ago then they can produce CH-DVD without too much problem now. They may recalculate the cost for both format now. They employee AVS-Audio here is just for patent consideration, u r right. No better than 5.1 24bit@192kHz.

[Ryokurin]

If they don't do 4x4, how can they play HD DVD?

Insiders on AVS mentioned that MPEG-2 license is $2.50 and VC-1 and AVC "a fraction" of it. What do they save then?

Diogen.

I think where everyone is mixing it up is in the HD DVD part. its only compatible in the part that the machines could easily be modified to play them, not that it can play them as it is now. What I'm guessing is that the HD DVD camp is hoping is once AVS players start to get dirt cheap most of the companies making them will decide to add the necessary chips to play HD DVD disks and sell them in the US.

[Valeron]

For patent issues, I'd like to speak a little more here.

It's patent-free in the same way my income is tax-free, I guess. Stick it to the man and rake it in while you can, go underground (or get bought out) when they put the heat on.

It's even not an OK comparison. U pay tax to the government, they keep governing the society according to the laws, keep the oil price not going too high, sentence the asshole who rapes a girl to prison... all these make ur life fairly good and is NECESSARY.

I'm not meant to not to praise the scientists who invent the tools which make our lives more happy, they deserve some incoming for their innovative idea and working in labs for day and night, but do we have to pay that much? who the hell define the patent terms? Do the scientists talk to consumers directly "I need 2$ for per unit u buy to continue my work"? The guys who define the patent terms r MPEG-LA, 3C, 6C, Thomson...etc. This is just my personal opinion. U may figure the rule in ur aspect.

Here we go, see how does AVS escape from the patent "trap" and why they have to. Read carefully before comment. IMO AVS group invented a very efficiency way to develop open standard while protect the consumers.

AVS - a project towards to an open and cost-efficient Chinese national standard (http://www.avs.org.cn/reference/Talking%20at-ITU-T%20VICA%20workshop-Gao-20050722.pdf)

A New Approach for Developing Open Standards with a More Reasonable Patent Licensing Policy (http://www.avs.org.cn/reference/HuangLSSB-confirmed-final.pdf)

INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS POLICY
of the Audio Video Coding Standard Working Group of China (http://www.avs.org.cn/en/doc/AVS%20IPR%20Policy%20(Sep122004-Dual%20Languages).doc)

AVS - The Chinese Next-Generation Video Coding Standard(Technically Introduction) (http://www.avs.org.cn/reference/AVS%20NAB%20Paper%20Final03.pdf)

AVS Official Site In English (http://www.avs.org.cn/en/index.asp)

Hopefully all these info will help u understand AVS better.

[foxyshadis]

Those links point out that they're not patent free at all, they're a patent pool the same as MPEG-LA, although they're trying to push it as close to royalty-free as possible. They're just being stricter about patent discovery. Now I totally don't understand your earlier comments.

Of course some companies are quite greedy and want money for things they haven't seriously improved on in 15 years, but some survive only by selling their daily research for the fractions of a cent per unit allotted to them.

I guess it's just a sort of "baseline HD-DVD", using less patents, which is an interesting concept. It's still vulnerable to submarine patents, though, because they can hardly lock out old discs by removing some decoding feature from new players in the future.

My little metaphor wasn't meant to be that deep, btw.

[Inventive Software]

*groan* ;)

Again, encode / decode numbers in future would be nice, China! :)

[Golgot13]

I guess it's just a sort of "baseline HD-DVD"

No, CH-DVD support H264, MPEG2 and VC1 codecs.
I don't understand why there is AVS (may be it's like VC1 on HDDVD:
MS supported AOD/HDDVD if there is VC1 codec support... After BD support it too,
because some people thought VC1 was a famous codec but we know now).