Haali Splitter 20 FPS Bug Status H.264 HW/Accel

[RaggedEdge]

Has there been any movement on the MKV 720P x264 20 FPS bug?

Is there any alternative MKV Splitter, or is Haali the only option for MKV?

It sure would be good to hear Haali's opinion on the bug - please give us all an update.

[Dark Shikari]

What bug is this? I have not heard of it.

[hekoheko]

This is the biggest bug there is!
Hope it gets fixed ASAP.


PS: Concerns only DXVA playback with NVIDIA and ATI cards.

[arfster]

There's a mkv splitter built into MPC, but it does exactly the same thing. Makes it more likely it's a bug with the PDVD decoder imo, and they don't support mkv - mail them asking for it!

[liquidator87]

There's a mkv splitter built into MPC, but it does exactly the same thing. Makes it more likely it's a bug with the PDVD decoder imo, and they don't support mkv - mail them asking for it!

Second that :) The B-frames are the problem, without them everything works well

[RaggedEdge]

There's a mkv splitter built into MPC, but it does exactly the same thing. Makes it more likely it's a bug with the PDVD decoder imo, and they don't support mkv - mail them asking for it!

I have asked Cyberlink to look into the MKV 20FPS bug, and they have agreed to forward the details to their developers, but nothings happened, suprise suprise!

I guess we are going to have to wait for someone to grab the parser from Haali's website, and use it to create a new MKV File Source DirectX Filter... any takers?

[madshi]

It's not the fault of MKV and not the fault of any MKV splitter. You can write 20 new MKV DirectShow filters and the problem will still be there. The problem has nothing to do with MKV. It's a problem between x264 encodes and h264 hardware accleration. You'd have the very same problem if you remuxed the problematic videos from MKV to MP4 or TS or in any other container.

[Trahald]

It's not the fault of MKV and not the fault of any MKV splitter. You can write 20 new MKV DirectShow filters and the problem will still be there. The problem has nothing to do with MKV. It's a problem between x264 encodes and h264 hardware accleration. You'd have the very same problem if you remuxed the problematic videos from MKV to MP4 or TS or in any other container.

If you are saying x264 is the issue, i would have to disagree. I have made 1080p x264 encodes and put them in mkv and works fine. (almost no cpu usage playback thru pdvd) .. and this is on a pc that goes 80% cpu playing xvids of a decent resolution.

Now i have found some h264/mkvs that didnt play (i force mpc to use pdvd for avc playback so i either get full gpu offload or failure)... i havent been able to figure out what the difference is between these files (its stuff i didnt make myself)... these files still fail the pdvd decoder even if i demux them. the only thing is.. again since i didnt make them, im not sure if they got butchered during mux because now even demuxed the raw file is too borked to work... or was it the original encode? my successful encode/muxes were done with newest mkvmerge and recent x264.

[adspence]

Not 100% sure this is the same thing, but I have a problem when running mkv's with the Cyberlink H264 codec. It drops frames, and not because there is a CPU issue (its only using around 20%). This is why I have to use CoreAVC instead, it works reliably.

[madshi]

If you are saying x264 is the issue, i would have to disagree. I have made 1080p x264 encodes and put them in mkv and works fine. (almost no cpu usage playback thru pdvd) .. and this is on a pc that goes 80% cpu playing xvids of a decent resolution.

Now i have found some h264/mkvs that didnt play (i force mpc to use pdvd for avc playback so i either get full gpu offload or failure)... i havent been able to figure out what the difference is between these files (its stuff i didnt make myself)... these files still fail the pdvd decoder even if i demux them. the only thing is.. again since i didnt make them, im not sure if they got butchered during mux because now even demuxed the raw file is too borked to work... or was it the original encode? my successful encode/muxes were done with newest mkvmerge and recent x264.
I'm not totally sure what exactly causes the problems. It's definitely not every x264 encoded video that fails. It's just some of them. Probably those that fail are using very special encoding settings or something like that. But you can try remuxing them into another container and they'll still not be accelerated. The point I was trying to make is simply that MKV has nothing to do with all this. It is *NOT* a Haali Splitter bug, as far as I can say. So it's no use bugging Haali with this.

[TheShadowRunner]

Clearly it is not a Haali splitter bug since i don't use it and experience the bug :/
My bet on the source of the 20fps bug goes on the way the pdvd codec communicates with the vmr9 renderer...

Maybe a petition for Cyberlink to correct the bug would help ^^

[Demone]

I for a moment thought it was not splitter fault but strange enought when remuxing those 20fps bug x264 into avi they work like a charme. Could it be a timecode problem ?

Then there is the black screen problem and some ppl say that changing the bframe setting of x264 encoder is the solution :mad:

[Sharktooth]

no... it's a bframes problem. since h.264 into avi needs a hack for bframes, that hack may as well (unwillingly?!?) fix the problem

[TheShadowRunner]

I'm not sure it's a bframe problem.
Please see the last answers to this thread:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1051356
Maybe a VMR9 deinterlacing bug..?

[Demone]

Its said that cl264dec.ax older versions dont produce black screen

I have a x264 clip that doesnt start with black frames like every movie and it freezes showing black upon play, but if I grab and move mplayerc window there is a forced refresh of the vmr surface and the first frame appears, just to tell you that it seems that after the first frame the graph freezes but the video stream informations are gained correctly, infact the player window is resized to actual video sizes........but doesnt play :confused:

[TheShadowRunner]

Demone, do you know if cl264dec.ax version 2.0.0.1904 is the latest one by any chance?

[Demone]

I think its the last one but check this page:
http://www.cyberlink.com/multi/download/patches_112_ENU.html

This is an interesting thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773218&page=100

[DrNein]

Encoding with x264 using certain options to produce non-standard (H.264/AVC) output is the main problem. Unfortunately, most of the files we are likely to encounter have been done wrong (presumably because, ironically, most people encoding are playing back with non-DxVA capable hardware and thus limiting output to 720 so that software decoders can manage).

I have not come across any which when demuxed did not still exhibit the framerate defect so the container is not usually an issue.

However, Matroska is also sometimes to blame since some older x264/MKV files which do not exhibit the framerate defect with older splitter versions (such as integrated into MPC) do so with later and the current Haali/Matroska splitter.

[TheShadowRunner]

DrNein, thanks for these details.
Is it possible for you to link me to one of those working 720p Matroska files that DO NOT have the 20fps bug when HA is enabled in the Cyberlink filter?
Or teach me how to create one?
I'm having a real tough time finding one that works at all, they either exhibit the 20fps bug or black-screen-on-play bug so far :(
720p/MKV/h264/24fps/VMR9 is apparently the bad combo for hardware acceleration with Cyberlink decoder.
I really hope there's a solution to this.
Thanks ;)

TSR
edit: from what I read in other threads; there is no such 20fps bug for 1080p MKV files, can anyone confirm this as well?

no... it's a bframes problem. since h.264 into avi needs a hack for bframes, that hack may as well (unwillingly?!?) fix the problem

Shark could you teach the way to remux a problematic MKV into AVI? I would like to check by myself if it definitely corrects the problem. No point in asking Cyberlink to correct the bug if it's not on their end. ^_^;
Thanks you.

[dwswager]

DrNein, thanks for these details.
Is it possible for you to link me to one of those working 720p Matroska files that DO NOT have the 20fps bug when HA is enabled in the Cyberlink filter?
Or teach me how to create one?
I'm having a real tough time finding one that works at all, they either exhibit the 20fps bug or black-screen-on-play bug so far :(
720p/MKV/h264/24fps/VMR9 is apparently the bad combo for hardware acceleration with Cyberlink decoder.
I really hope there's a solution to this.
Thanks ;)

TSR
edit: from what I read in other threads; there is no such 20fps bug for 1080p MKV files, can anyone confirm this as well?

Shark could you teach the way to remux a problematic MKV into AVI? I would like to check by myself if it definitely corrects the problem. No point in asking Cyberlink to correct the bug if it's not on their end. ^_^;
Thanks you.

Looking for a solution of some sort to playing my content. I have thus far been playing 480p AVC/AC-3 MKV files using FFDSHOW within Windows XP 2005 MCE interface. Unfortunately my HTPC does not have the HP to play 720p or 1080p AVC files with software only decoding. Hence, I went looking for video card acceleration. I can use PDVD to play MP4 AVC trailer from Nero site with accelleration, but PDVD chokes on all MKVs for me.

My computer is now encoding a series of test files with different x264 settings in both MP4 and MKV containers. My tools are MEGUI, x264, MKVMerge.

I'm looking for a solution to play SD and HD material. I'm not permanently married to MKV, though I would have preferred keeping AC-3 audio rather than using AAC. If I could find a solution that involved FFDSHOW to decode SD and PDVD to decode HD that would work, fine! I really thought that a autoplay HD DVD directory for both SD and HD material would be the solution, but if PDVD does not support B Frames then no go.

I do find it ironic that precisely the files that need acceleration for decode (high profile, high level) are the ones that the vendors chose not to support!:rolleyes:

BTW, I spoke with a guy using Vista that swears he can use PDVD to play MKVs correctly. He seemed to think it is the EVR render in Vista that makes it possible. Considering that EVR has been hacked into XP with .NET 3.0, I might try it.

[arfster]

BTW, I spoke with a guy using Vista that swears he can use PDVD to play MKVs correctly. He seemed to think it is the EVR render in Vista that makes it possible. Considering that EVR has been hacked into XP with .NET 3.0, I might try it.

Don't waste your time - the renderer issue is a generic hardware acceleration thing (ie you must use EVR for h264 acceleration in Vista). Nothing to do with this specific bug, and besides XP likely won't accelerate with EVR anyway.

[TheShadowRunner]

On XP, yeah, cl264dec.ax crashes when EVR is selected as renderer if hardware acceleration is enabled in Cyberlink's decoder.
It seems hardware acceleration is only available in XP when using VMR9.
And as you guys know, with VMR9 + HA we get the 20fps bug :/
Later,

TSR

[DrNein]

Sorry I don't have any files to link but the ones referred to showing a fault in the newer Matroska splitter (vs older) are about a year old "Xbox friendly" x264 recodes.

Sometimes people will refer to the x264 problem as being limited to 720p because 1080 MKV's work but those are often not x264 recodes but standard H.264/AVC (more importantly, professionally encoded).

DxVA in XP works with Overlay and VMR7 as well as VMR9. EVR did crash with my Nvidia card but not my ATI -it just cannot accelerate with EVR output.

I don't think it is so much about vendor support as DxVA works perfectly for pro/commercial AVC content (trailers, DVB, BD, HD DVD). Again, presuming x264 can be compliant, I think novice encoders are using combinations of settings that fail to meet the standard.

The irony is that they most often limit recodes to 720p not especially for file size consideration but to allow many systems to playback with a software-only decoder. Whereas, if the standard was followed then they would be playable by many more systems that are DxVA capable and with much greater efficiency -leaving more headroom for multi-tasking and at the same time using less power and possibly even being quieter in the process. General CPU decoding is so very inefficient compared to GPU.

[TheShadowRunner]

On XP, DxVa only works with VMR9 on my system.
Overlay and VMR7 make the cyberlink codec fall back to software mode. (as seen in task manager :p)
Later,

TSR

[DrNein]

Weird. What GPU and have you had it long enough to try several driver versions?

I have used VMR7 for ages specifically for the mirroring benefits for dual display versus VMR9 and the fact that the quality is better than Overlay.

[dwswager]

no... it's a bframes problem. since h.264 into avi needs a hack for bframes, that hack may as well (unwillingly?!?) fix the problem

I don't think it's the B-Frames. I encoded a HD file both with and without B-Frames, High Profile, Level 4.1. I then Muxed this into both MP4 and MKV containers.

My Setup is AMD X2 3700, Windows XP MCE 2005 Rollup2, 1 GB RAM, Gigabyte 8600GT w/ Forceware 163.71 WHQL. I have been playing 480p MKV files (DVD rips encoded to AVC w/ x264) with Haali Splitter and FFDSHOW under MCE Interface at about 50% CPU.

I disabled AVC decoding in FFDSHOW. Loaded PowerDVD Ultra. Used Windows Decoder Check utility to set prefered MPEG decoder to Cyberlink HD/BD Decoder. Rendered an MP4 with graphedit showing Cyberlink h.264/AVC Video Decoder and FFDSHOW Audio Decoder.

All files, both with and without B-Frames, in both containers played flawlessly in Graphedit and Windows Media Player with Hardware acceleration at CPU at about 15%.

Here is the issue. While the files (And other HD MP4s downloaded from the web) play in WMP, They do not play in PowerDVD or in the Windows MCE Interface using the Cyberlink (PowerDVD supplied) decoders. Both lock up at a black screen with 100% CPU utilization. I even unloaded the FFDSHOW audio and confirmed in graph edit that the Cyberlink Audio Decoder was being used and still no dice! :confused:

[DrNein]

The plot thickens! ;)

Disabling AVC decoding by ffdshow and using Windows XP Decoder Checkup Utility to set preferred MPEG-2 decoder do not seem relevant. ffdshow cannot be used by PowerDVD and Cyberlink HD/BD Decoder would not be used for an AVC file.

15% utilization of an X2 3700 with VP2 DxVA seems high for anything less than, say, 40 Mbps 1080p. Was that for the 480p recodes?

I understand that you are using MCE so WMP is presumably desirable but for testing purposes it may be better to use MPC for the easy codec management and being able to see exactly what filters are in use and most importantly confirm full frame rate.

[TheShadowRunner]

Weird. What GPU and have you had it long enough to try several driver versions?

I have used VMR7 for ages specifically for the mirroring benefits for dual display versus VMR9 and the fact that the quality is better than Overlay.

DrNein, you were right, Cyberlink DxVA works with Overlay, VMR7 and VMR9 on XP. Dunno why my first tests showed ha only working with VMR9. I have a Geforce8500GT, drivers are 163.71. (new beta 163.75 were released by nvidia a few days ago but i didn't install them yet).
Later,

TSR

[dwswager]

The plot thickens! ;)

Disabling AVC decoding by ffdshow and using Windows XP Decoder Checkup Utility to set preferred MPEG-2 decoder do not seem relevant. ffdshow cannot be used by PowerDVD and Cyberlink HD/BD Decoder would not be used for an AVC file.
Well, without disabling FFDSHOW AVC, it was the preferred decoder and while it works, it does not provide GPU acceleration.

15% utilization of an X2 3700 with VP2 DxVA seems high for anything less than, say, 40 Mbps 1080p. Was that for the 480p recodes?
This was 1080p 8Mbps encodes. CPU utilization bounced between about 2% to 20%. BTW, if you going all the way to 40Mbps, then you might as well use VC-1 which requires significantly less decoding power. AVC real advantage, like AAC is at lower bitrates where other codecs breakdown.

I understand that you are using MCE so WMP is presumably desirable but for testing purposes it may be better to use MPC for the easy codec management and being able to see exactly what filters are in use and most importantly confirm full frame rate.
I was using WMP because normally if I can get it to work in WMP, I can get it to work in MCE. However, in this instance, I could not. This makes me think it is more a PowerDVD issue both in the application and the decoders.

[TheShadowRunner]

Dumb question, does using mkv2vfr to remux a "problematic mkv exhibiting the 20fps bug with hardware acceleration" into AVI remove bframes ?
If no, we can deduce that bframes aren't the cause of the problem?
Let's try to pinpoint the exact source of the problem guys.
See you,

TSR

[TheShadowRunner]

well guys, it pays to search!!

I found the culprit : the cyberlink h.264 decoder.

With builds 2.0.0.1904 & 2.1.0.828 of cl264dec.ax i get the 20fps stuttering on MKV with hardware acceleration ON. (XP SP2/Nvidia 163.71/8500GT).

With build 1.99.0.1405, NO PROBLEMO. Solid 24fps on MKV ALL THE TIME with DXVA enabled!

So much for bframes and haali splitter problem haha..

It was Cyberlink all along!!
At least that's what happens on my system ^^
Hope it helps.
Later,

TSR

edit: arg i talked too fast. It corrects the problem on SOME .mkvs, not all.
Also, some mkvs still give a black screen (although vmr9 reports that the video decoding is being done..). But at least i've half a dozen files which used to exhibit the 20fps problem with other cl264dec builds that now work perfectly fine with the 1.99.0.1405 one. :D

[RaggedEdge]

well guys, it pays to search!!

I found the culprit : the cyberlink h.264 decoder.

With builds 2.0.0.1904 & 2.1.0.828 of cl264dec.ax i get the 20fps stuttering on MKV with hardware acceleration ON. (XP SP2/Nvidia 163.71/8500GT).

With build 1.99.0.1405, NO PROBLEMO. Solid 24fps on MKV ALL THE TIME with DXVA enabled!

So much for bframes and haali splitter problem haha..

It was Cyberlink all along!!
At least that's what happens on my system ^^
Hope it helps.
Later,

TSR

edit: arg i talked too fast. It corrects the problem on SOME .mkvs, not all.
Also, some mkvs still give a black screen (although vmr9 reports that the video decoding is being done..). But at least i've half a dozen files which used to exhibit the 20fps problem with other cl264dec builds that now work perfectly fine with the 1.99.0.1405 one. :D

I get the impression, Cyberlink could solve this issue once and for all, but have no will to do it.

The problem we have right now, is that Cyberlink are a monopoly - Intervideo and other H.264 software decoders don't seem to be offering any PureVideo2 HD accelerated alternative - it's a weird situation.

I've sent of numerious requests to Cyberlink for a resolution on the MKV 20 FPS bug, and I can only encourage you to do the same in the hope, they realize how many people would benefit with this bug fixed in their decoder.

[bob0r]

...

It was Cyberlink all along!!

...


I been telling that on doom9/irc/other places forever, why you think Haali never bothered? :helpful:

[Trahald]

That explains it... I get smooth playback but im using 1.99.0.1405 also.

[xW0Lf]

i have 1.99.0.1405 version of main codec file (one guy sent me to mail) but i have installed latest 7.3ultra with 2.*.* codec

how to use older codec, or i must find older version of whole package.. when i rename new and put older in same folder - and try to play x264/mkv i get error/memory dump

[arfster]

You folks with XP and Nero8 could maybe try its codec. It now works fine in third party apps, and supposedly supports h264acceleration. Can't test it myself cos I use Vista, and the codec doesn't support DXVA2.

[TheShadowRunner]

arfster, you're saying Nero8 comes with a directshow compatible h264 decoder that supports HA?
Later,

TSR

[arfster]

arfster, you're saying Nero8 comes with a directshow compatible h264 decoder that supports

Well, it's directshow, and it has a hardware acceleration tickbox, which only works with dxva1. Since I have Vista I can't test h264 as a result (Vista+h264 needs dxva2), but mpeg2 works fine. It certainly can decode h264 in software, and appears to be trying to make a dxva connection. Here are the pin properties out of Nero Video decoder, with it being fed some 1080p24 h264:


Major Type: Video - Sub Type: {70174349-D888-408A-BB1D-9E18075E5A5A} - Format: DXVA 1920x1088, 0 bits,
Aspect Ratio: 16x9,
Interlace format: Interleaved Bob Only
rcSrc=(0,0,1920,1080)
rcDst=(0,0,1920,1080)
CtrlFlags=00000000
Major Type: Video - Sub Type: {5CD11EE4-DAC9-4449-A017-440B36C0DE3D} - Format: DXVA 1920x1088, 0 bits,
Aspect Ratio: 16x9,
Interlace format: Interleaved Bob Only
rcSrc=(0,0,1920,1080)
rcDst=(0,0,1920,1080)
CtrlFlags=00000000
Major Type: Video - Sub Type: GUID_NULL - Format: DXVA 1920x1088, 0 bits,
Aspect Ratio: 16x9,
Interlace format: Interleaved Bob Only
rcSrc=(0,0,1920,1080)
rcDst=(0,0,1920,1080)
CtrlFlags=00000000
Major Type: Video - Sub Type: GUID_NULL - Format: DXVA 1920x1088, 0 bits,
Aspect Ratio: 16x9,
Interlace format: Interleaved Bob Only
rcSrc=(0,0,1920,1080)
rcDst=(0,0,1920,1080)
CtrlFlags=00000000
Major Type: Video - Sub Type: YV12 - Format: YV12 1920x1088, 12 bits,
Aspect Ratio: 16x9,
Interlace format: Interleaved Bob Only
rcSrc=(0,0,1920,1080)
rcDst=(0,0,1920,1080)
CtrlFlags=00000000
Major Type: Video - Sub Type: YUY2 - Format: YUY2 1920x1088, 16 bits,
Aspect Ratio: 16x9,
Interlace format: Interleaved Bob Only
rcSrc=(0,0,1920,1080)
rcDst=(0,0,1920,1080)
CtrlFlags=00000000
Major Type: Video - Sub Type: RGB32 - Format: RGB 1920x1088, 32 bits,
Aspect Ratio: 16x9,
Interlace format: Interleaved Bob Only
rcSrc=(0,0,1920,1080)
rcDst=(0,0,1920,1080)
CtrlFlags=00000000

[xW0Lf]

can we used nero codec alone... or we must install whole "bloatware" just to get hw.acc. to work..

i not want to download 900mb just to make my mkv/x264 work through my ati2600xt

[TheShadowRunner]

xWOLF, i couldn't do it. The single nevideo.ax file won't register without the rest of the bloated crap. I gave up for now. And it's 178megs.
Later,

TSR

[BetaBoy]

I been telling that on doom9/irc/other places forever, why you think Haali never bothered? :helpful:

hehe ;-)

[Demone]

I'm struggling with the 20fps and blank screen bug and as no one know know who's fault I tried Arcsoft MediaExtreme demo that has the h264 decoder with support for dxva1 and dxva2, but I cant make it to accelerate with my 2400xt, its strange I have problems building the graph and the only one I found working cant get into dxva, I think that the Arcsoft demuxer filter (the one that feeds the h264 dec.) breaks the hw acc.

@Arfster what's the registry setting under XP to add dxva sharpening ?

[xW0Lf]

betaboy, can we see coreavc soon in action with dxva enabled (and working without bugs with mkv/x264) and using new features from ati 2x00 and nvidia 8x00 cards? (to get <10% CPU load for 1080p) ???

tell that secret to us... :)

[Awhite]

There seems to be something strange going on with the profile levels of the h264 streams and H. Acceleration.

Original h264 stream was:
AVC - MPEG-4 AVC - High@L5.1

I changed that using the binreplace util (hexedit) , to:
AVC - MPEG-4 AVC - High@L4.1

(We also do this so we can get some L5.1 h264 files playback on ps3)

I remuxed the stream back to mkv along with the original ac3, and the file played just fine on PowerDVD with full Hardware Acceleration... no 20FPS bug/shuttering.



mkvextract tracks sample.mkv 1:video.h264 2:audio.ac3

binreplace video.h264 0167640033 0167640029

mkvmerge -o newvideo.mkv --default-duration 0:23.967fps -d 0 -A -S video.h264 -a 0 -D -S audio.ac3 --track-order 0:0,1:0



P.S I own an HD3850 ATi card.

[TheShadowRunner]

Interesting indeed Awhite, got to try a few things out..
Thanks for your post.
Later,

TSR

[shon3i]

@Awhite, is this work for both 720p and 1080p formats. Because i get black screen for 1080p videos?

[hekoheko]

YES!!!
720p works now judder free with full acceleration!
But 1080p still gives black screen...


With 2600XT.

[arfster]

Someone here figured out what exact options cause mkv issues:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12449406#post12449406
"I have done some more testing with x264 and found that if you want Hardware Acceleration on any H264/AVC HD stream encoded with x264 then the following fixes the 1080p(black screen) & 720p (slow down)

When encoding use the following.

1080p - Number of Reference frames must be equal to or less than 4
720p - Number of Reference frames must be be equal to or less than 8
Mixed Reference Frames must be false.
B Frames must equal 2
Adaptive B frames must be false"


Looks like the cyberlink decoder just doesn't like certain options with acceleration. Given older versions weren't quite so bothered, there's probably room for a software fix.

[Inventive Software]

How can Cyberlink get away with not supporting more options like this? Especially considering their earlier product versions seem to with no hassle whatsoever!

It's swayed me from getting Cyberlink's decoder in future, at least until they appeal more to their customers!

[BetaBoy]

Looks like the cyberlink decoder just doesn't like certain options with acceleration. Given older versions weren't quite so bothered, there's probably room for a software fix.

I doubt a software fix will do it as it 'seems' to be hardware limitations.