VMR9 + Catalyst 7.7, different colors than 7.6

[raynor]

*BUMP*

So, are all the nVidia owners happy with their
color levels (i.e. has nVidia fixed it) or is it still a problem ?

sorry for bumping this, but I really have to know
for making a decision which graphics card to buy (see above)

Thanks again,
raynor


:thanks:

[Comatose]

I'm on WinXP, with a 8800GTS (G80, 320MB), using latest drivers.
I didn't have a chance to try EVR on Vista, but in any case...
On WinXP, it's still not working properly. All renderers, including Overlay Mixer, aren't extending the luma range.

Haali's Video Renderer, on the other hand, is doing it properly :)

[wozio]

On WinXP, it's still not working properly. All renderers, including Overlay Mixer, aren't extending the luma range.

It a matter of taste if it is correct or not. You can always expand it manually via driver settings, just bump up comtrast and lower brightness for video and that's it. This is even better so you can calibrate your display to preserve BTB and WTW information. In case of automatic expansion there is no such possibility.

[kurkosdr]

*BUMP*

Same problem here (Catalyst 8.453, 24 March 2008). It seems most NVIDIA and ATI drivers for vista have this problem, and it's Microsoft's fault. They recommend using the RGB 16-235 range, instead of the RGB 0-255. This is fine when using TV-out (composite) to send picture to your analog TV, but if you are using a DVI monitor, you must use the whole range.

The RGB 16-235 is not the "correct"/"original" picture. YUV pictures do not have below-black and above-white information (if they do, it's just compression artifacts). So this means that "YUV black" should be converted to RGB0 and "YUV white" to RGB255. If it gets converted to dark grey (RGB16) and bright grey (RGB235) it's wrong, as you get grey where you should have black and so on.

Quick FIx:
-If you are using VLC (latest version), go to Tools --> Preferences --> Video and uncheck the "Use hardware YUV--> RGB convertions". This should fix the issue for VLC only. In fact, the Videolan team put this option there to solve specifically this problem (in the previous versions, it was hidden deep inside the advanced menu), so use it.

-Other people claim (http://www.xpmediacentre.com.au/community/video-audio-cards-vista/33458-ati-catalyst-8-11-drivers-now-available.html) that ATI fixed the issue in their latest drivers, but I mysteriously don't get any of the last 4 monitor options on my laptop display (i only get "attributes" and "avivo color") so I can't confirm. I 've searched all corners of CCC, no other option found.

Anyway, as long as I stick to VLC for everything, I am happy. The only trade-off is that I can't use any other DVD player, like PowerDVD, so I can't enjoy the advanced de-interlacing filter of PowerDVD, I am stuck with the sub-par of VLC (blend, that is). Anyway, most DVD's are progressive now, so it's a small trade-off.

Test pattern:
Here is a test pattern to see what are you getting (download (http://rapidshare.com/files/287376219/BlackLevel.zip.html)). Play it with the player of your choice, then hit printscreen on your keyboard and paste on ms paint. Select the color picker tool and click on the backround of the test pattern (between the boxes). The go to colors -> edit colors -> define custom colors. The "Lum" must be 0. If it's 15, you are getting the wrong range. When you click on the top left box (monitors don't show this box), the "Lum" should be 1. When you click on the bottom right box, the "Lum" must be 240.

PS: Don't tell me to upgrade drivers. This is the latest my laptop vendor offers, lazy hp...
PS2: Adjusting the brightness and contrast via CCC will just mess up things. If you want to view a youtube video of play a game, you 'll have to re-adjust every time. Adjusting brightness and contrast via your player will do nothing. The drivers will still convert RGB0 to RGB16, and now you have a black crush problem to take care of, too. Only the 2 above fixes work for all people, for now.

[burfadel]

I'm not sure if HP actually add anything to the drivers, Catalyst Maker and 9.9 would probably work well together :) if you have anything older than a X2xx mobile chip, you'd have to stick to 9.3 and catalyst maker :)

[dukey]

In a nut shell, VRM9 simply renders colour spaces incorrectly. Overlay and all the previous generation of MS video renderers don't have this problem. VRM9 just creates a DX9 surface, the drivers shouldn't be having to correct this.

[madshi]

The RGB 16-235 is not the "correct"/"original" picture. YUV pictures do not have below-black and above-white information (if they do, it's just compression artifacts). So this means that "YUV black" should be converted to RGB0 and "YUV white" to RGB255.
That is all incorrect information.

DVDs, NTSC broadcasts, PAL broadcasts, HD DVDs and Blu-Rays are all encoded in 8bit YCbCr and they all can in theory contain BTB and WTW information. Most of them don't, but in theory they can. But anyway, that doesn't really matter at all. What matters is only which RGB format your monitor/display wants. Some want video levels (16-235), some want computer levels (0-255). Some are adjustable to either standard. Most TVs and home cinema projectors want video levels (16-235). Most computer monitors and business projectors want computer levels (0-255).

Neither video levels nor computer levels are right or wrong. The crucial thing is that the PC must send out the levels the display expects. Otherwise the image quality will suffer a lot. So there are 2 steps to a correct configuration:

(1) Find out which levels your display wants (can be either video or computer levels).
(2) Make sure your computer outputs these levels.

[kurkosdr]

Neither video levels nor computer levels are right or wrong. The crucial thing is that the PC must send out the levels the display expects. Otherwise the image quality will suffer a lot.
Yes but having RGB 16-235 levels for video and RGB 0-255 for everything else (photo viewer, youtube, web etc) is a bonehead decision nevertheless.

-Say you monitor requires RGB 16-235 levels. This means DVDs will look fine, while everything else, from youtube videos, jpeg photos, webpages, and even the desktop itself will look bad.

-Now say you have a computer monitor, like most of the people who use pcs. Computer monitors require RGB 0-255 levels. This means everything will look fine (youtube videos, jpeg photos etc) except DVD's which will look flat and with washed out colors.

Anyone will tell you that the way to set the levels is through the graphics card drivers, so they will get universally set for all software, not the YUV converter. The YUV converter should export proper RGB 0-255 signal. Then it's up to the driver to either leave at is it, or compress it to RGB 16-235.

Also, keep in mind that, even if you do manage to set up your card to export in RGB 16-235 (so photos and web won't look bad on your RGB 16-235 monitor), then the video will get compressed to RGB 16-235 by the YUV converter, and then further compressed to RGB 32- 220 by the graphics card driver! So you will still get the washed out colors even if you have an RGB 16-235 monitor!

The only solution to this (apart from moving to windows 7) is disabling the YUV conversions (don't try messing with the renderers, you might lose video hardware acceleration)

[madshi]

Yes but having RGB 16-235 levels for video and RGB 0-255 for everything else (photo viewer, youtube, web etc) is a bonehead decision nevertheless.

-Say you monitor requires RGB 16-235 levels. This means DVDs will look fine, while everything else, from youtube videos, jpeg photos, webpages, and even the desktop itself will look bad.

-Now say you have a computer monitor, like most of the people who use pcs. Computer monitors require RGB 0-255 levels. This means everything will look fine (youtube videos, jpeg photos etc) except DVD's which will look flat and with washed out colors.

Anyone will tell you that the way to set the levels is through the graphics card drivers, so they will get universally set for all software, not the YUV converter. The YUV converter should export proper RGB 0-255 signal. Then it's up to the driver to either leave at is it, or compress it to RGB 16-235.
If we're talking about displaying all this on a computer monitor, then yes, of course you should setup video playback for RGB 0-255 output. But look, some of us are using their PCs as HTPCs (home theater PCs). I have a dedicated PC built using only passive components (no fan at all) in a special case which looks like a normal Hifi component and all it ever does it playing back Blu-Rays, HD DVDs and HD broadcasts. So I sure want my HTPC to behave like any normal consumer electronics device does by default, which is outputting video as RGB 16-235, which is also what the majority of TVs (not computer monitors) expect by default. Personally, I don't care about youtube videos, web pages, jpeg photos or anything else because that's just not what I'm using my HTPC for.

*You* want PC-levels. And for you it's the correct choice. *I* want video levels. And for me video levels are the correct choice. So what I'm saying is that neither of this is "right" or "wrong". It all depends on what the PC is used for and which monitor/display/TV it's connected to.

[kurkosdr]

*I* want video levels.
And what you are getting is video levels for DVDs and PC-levels for JPEG photos and webpages. So you don't get what you want. That's bad

You really don't use your HTPC to view photos and youtube videos? Strange..

As I say above, the best choice would be to allow us set the levels from the Catalyst, so all our software would output in the correct levels each one of us wants.

This would be better both for you and me.

Probably seven has this feature.

[madshi]

And what you are getting is video levels for DVDs
Correct.

and PC-levels for JPEG photos and webpages
I get no levels for JPEG photos and webpages at all, because I don't show JPEG photos or webpages with my HTPC.

So you don't get what you want. That's bad
I get *exactly* what I want. That's good

You really don't use your HTPC to view photos and youtube videos? Strange..
You really use your HTPC to view photos and youtube videos? Strange..

--------

Let me ask you something: It seems your preferred solution with current Catalyst drivers is to setup everything to PC-levels. Correct? But what do you do if you have a beamer or TV which only works correctly with video levels? Are you aware that in this situation your setup would not only screw up video playback quality, but photo and youtube playback quality, as well?

As I say above, the best choice would be to allow us set the levels from the Catalyst, so all our software would output in the correct levels each one of us wants.

This would be better both for you and me.
I'd have no problem with that. My point was all along that neither PC levels nor video levels are wrong, and that the user should be able to choose.

However, the video should *NOT* be rendered in PC levels - and then converted by the driver (e.g. Catalyst) to video levels. Because if you did that, BTB and WTW information would be clipped. Which is bad. Also stretching 8bit video between video <-> PC levels harms image quality. Video should be rendered directly to the correct output levels.

[kurkosdr]

However, the video should *NOT* be rendered in PC levels - and then converted by the driver (e.g. Catalyst) to video levels. Because if you did that, BTB and WTW information would be clipped. Which is bad. Also stretching 8bit video between video <-> PC levels harms image quality. Video should be rendered directly to the correct output levels.

I admit you have a point there. The best solution would be the media player to have an option to set what levels you want (RGB 15-235 or RGB 0-255). Now, the only way to get that option is changing some obscure key in the registery. And not always
Neither PowerDVD nor WMP offer you a choice to set what levels you want. And this is software we 've paid money for!
Currently, only VLC has this kind of switch.

Also note that many monitors switch themselves in "PC levels" mode if they detect an RGB 0-255 signal on the input. Notably Samsung tv's. So, if you have one of this monitors, you are basically in the same fate as we PC monitor users, washed out colors.

So, I strongly believe we need that kind of switch in all media players.

[madshi]

I admit you have a point there. The best solution would be the media player to have an option to set what levels you want (RGB 15-235 or RGB 0-255). Now, the only way to get that option is changing some obscure key in the registery. And not always
Neither PowerDVD nor WMP offer you a choice to set what levels you want. And this is software we 've paid money for!
Currently, only VLC has this kind of switch.

Also note that many monitors switch themselves in "PC levels" mode if they detect an RGB 0-255 signal on the input. Notably Samsung tv's. So, if you have one of this monitors, you are basically in the same fate as we PC monitor users, washed out colors.

So, I strongly believe we need that kind of switch in all media players.
MPC HC allows you to choose the levels, too, at least when using EVR. The levels depend on the media player, the renderer and the graphics driver. So it's a very complex thing. Personally, I've given up hope that GPU companies will ever get this right.