Assuming Bitrate from Loseless filesize - silly or not so?

[DarkT]

I know that the more motion/details, the more bitrate something needs, also the highter the resolution - I suppose.

Now, let's say there's a series which runs on resolution X, each time the loseless(lagarith) file size is 7GB.

The bitrate for it from trial and error is ~1400.

Now, let's say that there's anotehr series, it has same resolution (X) and it has the same Run-time, the difference is though - let's say, that the Lagarith Loseless filesize from this other series is 3.5GB - basically, 50% less...

Would that warrant the assumption that there's need for not 1400bitrate but 700? or atleast SOME sort of reduction in bitrate?



I was told it's unrelated... Being new to all of this I'm doubting that htis is unrelated... What do you guys say?

[Zarxrax]

The lossless codec and the lossy codec probably use totally different compression methods that are unrelated. So just because a lossless codec can compress one source better, the lossy codec wont necessarily be able to compress it better. However, I would guess that there should be some amount of correlation, so yea, I'd say there is a pretty good chance that there would be some reduction in bitrate.

Why are you wanting to use a bitrate based encoding method though? Why not use a method where you can specify the filesize, or a quality based method?

[DarkT]

Why? Because I'm a noob - naturally :).

Besides, Quality-based encoding - or so I've heared, isn't better - what I've heared was:

if you do quality based encoding, check the size, and derive the bitrate from it, take that biotrate and do a bitrate-based 2 passes, it'll be of better quality.

And since I always overkill with my bitrate(IU encode my anime at 1400 bitrate) - I figure, I'll get better results so-or-so...

Also, with bitrate I can specify filesize :), well, not exactly, but I can know what the filesize would be... And besides, Filesize isn't a concern - I mean, be a file 150mb or 200mb, no difference - people should get over their CDS and buy dvdS, and change their 20gb hdd to 250gb hdds :) - and change their internet from 56k to broadband - we're in the 21st centur for X-sakes :).

HOWEVER, if I can reduce a file from 1.2gb to ~700mb... WELL, that IS an interesting reduction :) (I have a dvd of an anime which is 96 minutes long).

And besides, The whole "size doesn't matter much" is my excuse for my lack of knwoeldge about how to determine good bitrate :), so I always just go with 1400 :) - I'm noobish like that :(.

[twolfe18]

well, if your encoding anime, and your not a complete noob, you should be able to use a bitrate MUCH LOWER than 1400! i would say that you could go as low as 300 to 500 and still maintain a very good quality. if you want to do this though, you should look into good noise reduction (for anime, msmooth looks good) and use x264 for compression. it can take a while to learn everything you need to know to make this happen though. good luck!

[DarkT]

i would say that you could go as low as 300 to 500 and still maintain a very good quality.

Lol, I wonder who's the noob now... That's prepostorous - you'd need to seriously kill details to do that sort of thing... I suppose some animes would take it better then others, but that sort of rate isn't any good at all... Why on EARTH would you want to denoise to such a level that you can put it on 500?!!?! It makes no sense what-so-ever... I'll start using RMVB the moment I do that...

So basically I disagree :).

[Alain2]

It depends on the anime and the frame size you resize to, but 500 is not a stupid video bitrate at all if you properly clean and remove noise; I make all my encode between 500 and 800 (animation or film).

[DarkT]

Then their quality isn't worth much /me belives :).

I've seen ove 300 animes, size... Matters :).

Unless yo umake your anime fuzzy looking - which sux :).

The devil is in the details... 800 bitrate is somewhat aceptable for some stuff though, I suppose - but 500?600? COME ON! Gimme a break... Only on 1 or 2 occasions I saw, I think it was by [GG], a REALLY small sized anime which was SOMEWHAT ok... the episodes were like 125mb per wach... But that's the exception of the rule...

I suppose that *for me* - fuzzy unsharp stuff = auto fail, and we all know that the more details/sharper = more bitrate... So maybe that's why...

Still, I belive that sharpness does make an encode better quality.

Edit:

In my posts of quality/size I'm refering to DVD encodes...

[twolfe18]

give me a raw anime sample and i will encode it at 500kb/s. then you can make a decision on how crappy you think it looks.

[DarkT]

I'm not really interested in discussing this - I've seen plenty - I have no interest in seeing the horrors that can stem from that - honestly, so let's end this silly argument right here and now :) - if you want to think that a bitrate of 500 is enought - have fun, this has gone quite off-topic, not without my help ofcourse, but anyway - "raws" aren't viewed here very well unles they are your personal dvd.

At any rate, I've done some testing - and I concluded that a drop of 50% in the loseless size allows for 35% drop in bitrate... I didn't test it further though - tested 15,25,35% - 35% was showing slight, SLIGHT almost unseeable detoriation... Anyway, tested it only on 1 source...

[twolfe18]

look, all i am saying is that i think 500 gets you more quality than most people think it does. i'm not trying to show you up, but look at the attached file to see if it meets your standards:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?eeodatbbqc2

[DarkT]

look, all i am saying is that i think 500 gets you more quality than most people think it does. i'm not trying to show you up, but look at the attached file to see if it meets your standards:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?eeodatbbqc2

That was rather good - but that's not anime :) - that's just a cartoon... I'm pretty sure stuff like "simpsons" and other American cartoons really do not need all that much and 500-700 is prolly a good range for them...

But not for anime... By Anime I'm refering to Japanese animation...

[smok3]

ok, i dont know much about japanimation, but how it would be different in terms of encoding to any other similar cartoon?

[DarkT]

Ahhh, simple - japanese animation is much more elaborate, the colors aren't just yellow or this or that, it's mostly much more "complex" I suppose :) - hence, requiring much more bitrate.

Naturally, SOME us based cartoons would need more bitrate too... Hell, as far as I know - if you go constant quality or whatever it's called, there can be as much as 50mb of a difference between two episodes of the same anime series!

[Dark Shikari]

It depends on the anime. If it has very few detailed backgrounds and a low animation FPS, it'll be easy to compress. If it has tons of CGI-added stuff, detailed backgrounds, and complex animation, it'll be nearly as tough as a conventional film.

[Chainmax]

It really depends on who's doing the encode. Sirber did some encodes of Naruto at IIRC ~450kbps that supposedly look very good. It's not that farfetched a statement, it all depends on the compressibility of the source and the filters used: MVDeGrain2, for example, can give a very good compressibility gain while removing very little detail. Likewise, encoding to x264 with the AE-MaxQuality profile lets you use a very low video bitrate.

[DarkT]

At any rate - let's leave this whole bitrate thingy - k? I'm more interested in people's experience with the topic-question... Moe...