ffdshow -- Differences Between Versions

[Zach]

Quick and simple, what exactly is the difference between ffdshow tryouts (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow-tryout/), the CCCP (http://www.cccp-project.net/), and the official (??) one (found here (http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Codec-Packs-Video-Codecs/FFDShow-MPEG-Video-Decoder.shtml))?


Brief background: I'm on a clean (fresh install) system again, and as I previously stated in my recent "divx vs. xvid" thread, I want to keep my system as "clean" as possible.

With that said, on any new system, I usually install the following (in order of listing):


Nero 7 (I list this since it installs a bunch of codecs, though I don't really use them I think)
nVidia MPEG-2 decoder (since I paid for it and produces the best IQ I've seen)
DivX Pro
xvid
ac3 filter
CCCP (ffdshow + Haali Media Splitter)

Probably thanks to the CCCP, the above lets me decode everything I have ever needed to (mpg1, mpg2, divx/xvid avi's, mkv, and ogm).

So if my initial question above is too broad, then perhaps someone could just guide me on what I would need to do if wanted to use the ffdshow tryouts (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow-tryout/) instead of the CCCP (http://www.cccp-project.net/). Or tell me if that's even a good idea.

This is on Vista x64, but to be clear, I'm not at all interested in 64-bit decoders--too many headaches... maybe by 2012. :p

[clsid]

ffdshow tryouts continued where ffdshow stopped.

CCCP uses a slightly modified version of ffdshow tryouts (in their recent beta versions).

[Zach]

So I understand you correctly, my current install scheme is fine then, right? It'll keep me relatively "current" as far as development chains go since CCCP itself uses ffdshow tryouts?

Now, the CCCP installs more than just ffdshow. From its limited documentation, that's the whole point of it: to allow video noobs like me to install a single "codec pack" that isn't overly invasive and full of unnecessary bloat.

So what would happen if I installed CCCP and then afterwards installed the latest version of ffdshow tryouts directly (or Haali's Media Splitter for that matter)? Would that be, in essence, a seamless update to the CCCP installation (from my system's perspective), or would that break things?

[Zach]

Never mind. I asked the question in the proper (I hope) thread (link (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1023093#post1023093))?

Mods, I'll understand if you lock this thread since it is sort of a cross-post. :(

(In my defense, it's not really a cross-post. I'm just redirecting the discussion to the proper thread... I think. :))

[Dark Shikari]

You can install CCCP and then the latest FFDShow-Tryouts; it works fine in most cases, from what I've found.

[Zach]

Well, Cryptum, in the thread I referenced above, suggested that I might try the CCCP betas which, naturally, use a relatively current ffdshow tryout package.

So now I'm torn between using the CCCP beta or ditching it altogether and instead going with the Vista Codec Package (http://www.jtow.net/users/triess/).

The advantage of CCCP is that it is what I have used for long time now, and it works, so why fix what's not broken? :)

But Vista Codec Package (http://www.jtow.net/users/triess/) has two major benefits which are drawing me to it:


He includes a "Conflict detection and removal" tool which is nice for a video codec noob like me; and
He also maintains a companion 64-bit codec package which he keeps in sync with his default 32-bit package.


Decisions, decisions.

[Dark Shikari]

Well, Cryptum, in the thread I referenced above, suggested that I might try the CCCP betas which, naturally, use a relatively current ffdshow tryout package.

So now I'm torn between using the CCCP beta or ditching it altogether and instead going with the Vista Codec Package (http://www.jtow.net/users/triess/).

The advantage of CCCP is that it is what I have used for long time now, and it works, so why fix what's not broken? :)

But Vista Codec Package (http://www.jtow.net/users/triess/) has two major benefits which are drawing me to it:


He includes a "Conflict detection and removal" tool which is nice for a video codec noob like me; and
He also maintains a companion 64-bit codec package which he keeps in sync with his default 32-bit package.


Decisions, decisions.
IIRC the CCCP forum has had a number of people being unable to play videos because of issues with the Vista Codec Package... so whatever it is it doesn't sound perfect.

[clsid]

CCCP also detects some conflicting stuff. VCP only detects a few other codec packs. I am sure you are able to uninstall those on your own. If not, K-Lite would be a better choice. That detects almost every codec pack known to mankind.

VCP is not even able to do basic things like detecting QuickTime, which is very bad since VCP also contains QT stuff.

Just use CCCP (latest beta) or K-Lite (Standard version). Those are small but powerful packs with latest/recent versions of Haali and ffdshow tryouts.

[Zach]

Alright. Thanks for the sound advice, guys. So like I stated above, it's probably not best to fix what's not broken anyway, and I'll just stick with CCCP, but just use the newest beta instead. :)

Thanks!

[Dark Shikari]

CCCP also detects some conflicting stuff. VCP only detects a few other codec packs. I am sure you are able to uninstall those on your own. If not, K-Lite would be a better choice. That detects almost every codec pack known to mankind.

VCP is not even able to do basic things like detecting QuickTime, which is very bad since VCP also contains QT stuff.

Just use CCCP (latest beta) or K-Lite (Standard version). Those are small but powerful packs with latest/recent versions of Haali and ffdshow tryouts.
Why not to use K-Lite (http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=K-Lite) ;)

[clsid]

None of that is correct ;) In fact it clearly shows that the person who wrote that never even installed the pack, but only looked at a very old feature list. All 'redundant' things are mutually exclusive in the installer. Lots of things are not installed by default. And there also is a much smaller Standard version.

Verdict: TheFluff is a n00by donkey.

[Dark Shikari]

None of that is correct ;) In fact it clearly shows that the person who wrote that never even installed the pack, but only looked at a very old feature list. All 'redundant' things are mutually exclusive in the installer. Lots of things are not installed by default. And there also is a much smaller Standard version.

Verdict: TheFluff is a n00by donkey.
He was talking about the K-Lite Mega Codec Pack, which is the one everyone installs and everyone links to. It might be somewhat out of date, but the entire idea of a "mega codec pack" is complete balls to begin with, so I doubt it'll ever truly ever wrong.

Also notice the date.

[clsid]

Even for the Mega version every statement on that wiki page is incorrect.

I know the page is almost a year old. But don't forget that you are the one posting a link to it.

[Dark Shikari]

Even for the Mega version every statement on that wiki page is incorrect.

I know the page is almost a year old. But don't forget that you are the one posting a link to it.
Its a wiki, you can always update it if the number of MP4 splitters has changed from 3 to 4 or something :p

[clsid]

I could change it. But there won't be much left. Besides, it would probably get changed back anyway.

But you obviously also not seem to know what you are talking about. CCCP fanboys are like religious fanatics. The world is better of without their bullshit. Atheist K-Lite fanboys rule. Jeehaa.

[Dark Shikari]

I could change it. But there won't be much left. Besides, it would probably get changed back anyway.

But you obviously also not seem to know what you are talking about. CCCP fanboys are like religious fanatics. The world is better of without their bullshit. Atheist K-Lite fanboys rule. Jeehaa.
When your K-Lite can play my videos properly, I'll consider it.

Until it properly supports Matroska files with subtitles without breaking horribly, it might as well not exist.

And I know, because I know people who have installed it, and either the subtitles are not properly styled or they don't work at all.

The CCCP isn't the only pack that has such support--there are others but K-Lite isn't one of them.

Its primary advantage really is that it has encoders included in addition to decoders. Unfortunately this is generally useless as FFDShow has basically all of them integrated to begin with. FFDShow has pretty much succeeded in making most codecs unnecessary :cool:. I know some people who don't use any pack; their modus operandi is just to install CCCP, Haali, and MPC and most things work just fine.

The reason you have your so-called "fanatics" is because after years of having to try to get peoples' computers to play anime fansubs of various formats, most sane people get utterly sick of bad codec packs conflicting with each other and themselves. That's why the CCCP is minimal. Its also probably one of the reasons that FFDShow has such a high DirectShow merit--so that it overrides broken codecs on peoples' systems.

Even if you fixed up K-Lite entirely and made it work perfectly for its specific purpose in all cases, most people would have trouble accepting it; its as if you were selling a "fixed" Ford Pinto; they knew it exploded in the past and would rather not risk it for the future.

[clsid]

I don't know where you get your information, but it plays Matroska and subs correctly. Except for rare special effects, like karaoke stuff, for which pre-buffering must be disabled in VSFilter (as described in the included FAQ). Do you perhaps have a small sample file (non-karaoke) that doesn't display the subs correctly?

In my opinion ffdshow is not a good alternative for encoding. That's the most buggy and least updated part of ffdshow. It is better to use standalone encoders.

You may dislike K-Lite because it might fails in very specific situations that are relevant to you. But CCCP at default settings will also fail to play several things. It is pretty much impossible to make a perfect pack that works in all situations. That is why so much packs exists and why everybody has his own favorite. I do know for a fact that K-Lite has a couple hundred thousand satisfied users. Same probably holds for CCCP.

[TheFluff]

but only looked at a very old feature list. All 'redundant' things are mutually exclusive in the installer.

And if you take a look at the page history you'll noti- eh, you already did (also note that the mentioned rant is even older than the wiki version).

My main argument against the mega pack still stands though. It's still very pointless (as well as a highly impressive collection of warezed versions of various encoders and decoders of different ages, ranging from saw-the-dinosaurs-die-out ancient to pretty recent); why download 15 MB of random codecs and filters of which you are likely to only ever need three or four? If you actually needed one of the more odd things included in there, you'd be pretty likely to know what you are doing and where to get it yourself. Although you've made a pretty nice job of slimming it since last I flamed you about it. Now it's, what, half the size of before?

The standard pack on the other hand is pretty decent nowadays, even if it still has a few odd things in there (Gabest's MP4 splitter for example) and still includes juicy warez in the form of a) CoreAVC 1.3, which (still) isn't even officially released yet, and b) a Cyberlink MPEG2 decoder which I highly doubt is freely distributable (why even include it?).

[Zach]

For what's it's worth, I uninstalled the CCCP beta and then installed the K-Lite Standard codec pack to check it out.

The net result was essentially the same: everything I could play (i.e., both see[video] and hear[audio]) before I could still play with K-Lite, so functionally for me they are equivalent.


**BUT** K-Lite is the winner in my book because for the first time in 2.5 years, I can finally configure the nVidia DVD Decoder I purchased on 2/26/2005. Hooray! :)

That's always been a pet peeve of mine about FFDShow. It always takes over the "Advance..." properties button of WMP's DVD properties tab. With K-Lite, it still does, of course, but after running K-Lite's little Codec Tweak Tool, now for the first time ever a little nVidia icon appears on in my tray when playing mpg2 files, and from there I finally have access to this:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4153/clipboardimagews6.jpg

[foxyshadis]

In any other version of ffdshow, you could just disable mpeg-2 decoding to achieve the same result, either on install or from the setup.

[Zach]

In any other version of ffdshow, you could just disable mpeg-2 decoding to achieve the same result, either on install or from the setup.

Not true. I've always disabled it. That's not the problem.

[clsid]

My main argument against the mega pack still stands though. It's still very pointless (as well as a highly impressive collection of warezed versions of various encoders and decoders of different ages, ranging from saw-the-dinosaurs-die-out ancient to pretty recent); why download 15 MB of random codecs and filters of which you are likely to only ever need three or four? If you actually needed one of the more odd things included in there, you'd be pretty likely to know what you are doing and where to get it yourself. Although you've made a pretty nice job of slimming it since last I flamed you about it. Now it's, what, half the size of before?

The standard pack on the other hand is pretty decent nowadays, even if it still has a few odd things in there (Gabest's MP4 splitter for example) and still includes juicy warez in the form of a) CoreAVC 1.3, which (still) isn't even officially released yet, and b) a Cyberlink MPEG2 decoder which I highly doubt is freely distributable (why even include it?).I pretty much agree with you that many components are really not needed by most people, except for the odd file they might run into sometimes. However, the people themselves are stubborn thinking they need more. Nevertheless, there are also still plenty of people that do want to play lossless audio files and do their own encodings, but are still lazy enough to use a pack.

Haali's splitter does not work very well with many .mov files (older ones without H.264). That is too bad since ffdshow is capable of decoding almost every common audio/video format that occurs in such files. That is why Gabest splitter is used specifically for .mov files. Haali is used for .mp4 and .hdmov. MPC however is one of the few players that ignores the mediatype settings (preferred source filters) and will always use Haali (because of higher merit). But that is no problem if QT is installed, since that will then be used instead of DS.

I saw a direct link to a CoreAVC download on CCCP forums the other day by raijinshou. :rolleyes:

[clsid]

Not true. I've always disabled it. That's not the problem.
CCCP installs Gabest's MPV decoder for MPEG-2 video by default. That might be the problem. Although I do think they give it a low merit.

[Nicholi]

I saw a direct link to a CoreAVC download on CCCP forums the other day by raijinshou. :rolleyes:
Lol CCCP lurker. Luckily none of us are bored enough to lurk your forums. Absolutely nothing ever happens there :). I wonder if I could even link to the K-Lite homepage, or if I would be struck for blatantly linking to so much warez...perhaps just a pic instead. Care to comment foxyshadis?

Most are clearly opensource/freeware, however I count at least three cracked Pro apps/filters besides the many MPEG2 decoders and splitters which are likely not free. I don't even want to waste time counting how much cracked shit is in the K-Lite pack itself.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2919/warezyumol4.th.png (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2919/warezyumol4.png)

Also unfortunately for you raijinshou is not an "official member" (whatever that means) of CCCP. Just a happy forum goer that likes all too much to try and help people. So I've no idea where you get the idea of "we're all the same, you support warez too". Even if he did write a link to your site (omg world over) it's not the same bucket of filth as say... hosting cracked applications is it? Blame google much do ya? Not to mention I've never seen him link to any warez for the life of me. Since you seem to drone over every word we say at the forums, like to share that link? There's no doubt he may have said it once (zoomj) but unlike you I guess I'm not on the lurk for CCCP.

You've done a very good job at somehow remaining a member of this community yet blatantly supporting warez at the same time, may you continue to do so O' not hypocritical one. Rolleyes indeed.

P.S. Nice that you host every version of CoreAVC besides the alpha, lol. The only one which was ever freely given away, albeit without knowing the repercussions.

[clsid]

I was merely pointing out a fact. I did not say that raijinshou is an official member, not that he represents the general opinion of CCCP, nor did I say anything bad about CCCP. But maybe you should ban/strike him, instead of pointing fingers to others. Otherwise you are clearly the hypocrite.

I like to stay informed, so I browse many websites. But I guess that is not allowed. Still I seem to be stalked by CCCP troops. Weird, since I have never said anything bad or untrue about CCCP.

I don't host software such as CoreAVC, nor do I own that website. So get a life.

[Nicholi]

Right of course...just like the mafiosa boss doesn't actually partake in any criminal activities, he just tells other people what to do. Or rather in your case allows it to happen and pretends nothing is going on. I suppose you aren't the one that actually builds the K-Lite either, thus that isn't your problem? Just because you put the cracked apps into the installer script doesn't mean you distributed it!

I haven't heard such excuses since someone told me the Holocaust never happened :). I'd like to anonymously quote someone's first response to reading your last post.

now if that isn't the mafia boss calling the pickpocket a criminal

P.S. I don't particularly care if someone links to the website which "is not yours but hosts warez directly next to K-Lite (which has warez in it) and you have no control over it". And I don't plan to strike/ban anyone yet since I still see no link where he mentions it. Though I will inform said person of my personal policy on such matters. Which is... find the warez on your own I'm not helping you do it. If any CCCP troops are stalking you it is likely fanboys as you previously mentioned. Can't do much about that but be paranoid I guess n_n.

[Zach]

CCCP installs Gabest's MPV decoder for MPEG-2 video by default. That might be the problem.
Perhaps.

Although I do think they give it a low merit.

Just to clear up some possible confusion, my nVidia decoder remains the default mpeg-2 decoder after I install FFDShow (via CCCP). That's not the problem. The problem (or "issue" rather) is that FFDShow takes over the "Advanced..." (settings) button in WMP, so after installing FFDShow, I no longer have any way to access the decoder's properties.

With K-Lite, the "Advanced..." button is still taken over by FFDShow, but for the first time ever, now a little nVidia tray icon appears when I play an mpeg-2 file, and from there I regain my ability to configure the decoder.




-----------------------------

To both you guys regarding the other banter:

I'm confused. Is someone here claiming K-Lite is "warez"?!? :stupid:

[Dark Shikari]

I'm confused. Is someone here claiming K-Lite is "warez"?!? :stupid:
Depends on what your version of K-Lite includes.

One of the reasons the CCCP is relatively limited is, as far as I know, it has nothing questionably legal in it.

Real Alternative/Quicktime Alternative fall into that category as they violate the distribution conditions of Real and Apple, respectively.

Then there's things like CoreAVC that some codec packs include that are simply pirated.

Not sure what exactly the current K-Lite has so can't comment on that.

[Zach]

Ah, okay. I don't even know what CoreAVC is (hey, this is the Newbie sub-forum, so don't laugh!!), and Quicktime I get from stupid iTunes which I have to install, and anything "Real" I avoid like the plague anyway.

I guess it doesn't matter (to me) anymore anyway because I ditched K-Lite and went back to my tried-and-true CCCP. :)

Last night I imaged (with Ghost) my Vista64 drive, formatted, and then installed Vista32. (I was just going to go back to XP because I'm getting a little tired of all of Vista64's minor compatibility annoyances, but I figured I'd give Vista32 another shot.)

It's actually not so bad other than losing 1.5 GB of my memory, but when I got to installing my multimedia stuff, things went downhill quickly. Long story short, K-Lite somehow killed all audio on my system. NOTHING had audio, even my DVR mpeg2/(some LPCM and some AC3) rips, all of which played fine seconds before installing K-Lite. Very weird considering it worked fine under Vista64, and both were "clean" systems (fresh installs) with absolutely nothing else multimedia related installed.

Anyway, I went back to a previous Ghost image (to ensure I undid all the damage), installed CCCP, and everything works like a charm again. The only gotcha was that if I enabled MP3 audio support (for ffdshow), there's a 10-15 second startup delay followed by no audio. This was with the default "libmad," and switching to "mp3lib" crashes WMP altogether. So I just disabled it and let Windows use its nameless driver to render the audio.

[foxyshadis]

We have our board rules, CCCP has theirs, and we aren't the internet cops here. (I hope I'd be getting paid more in that case. :p) I think linking to a site for discussion purposes is fine, but Doom9 is the arbiter, I'm just the n00b mod here.

And this forum isn't the right place for flamewars, little too strict. You guys should just settle your grudge with a Youtube rap battle - drop your track or leave forever. =D