Sony's Interesting Policy

[Toti]

Sony - big, excellent and quality electronics. That's the first thing that comes to mind when I hear that name; also expensive electronics.

However, I do think that Sony introduces a number of ideas, products and formats too fast then promotes them heavily with flyers, commercials, products inserts and then slowly fades away. Then when no one remembers it, it just disappears forever.

The latest is Sony's Online Music Store "CONNECT". This was Sony's ITunes killer (yeah right!!). http://techdigest.tv/2007/06/sony_to_close_i.html. Wasn’t this a bad move? http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9680711-1.html

This adds to SACD, Minidisc, MicroMV, Network Walkman, UMD, VAIO Desktops, Sony's Car ES line, DreamSystem ES, Betamax. I still remember the first Sony ES Video product designation http://www.ultimateavmag.com/dvdplayers/1105sony/. The unforgetable smallest camcorder with 70% smaller tape http://www.ita.sel.sony.com/micromv/micromv.swf or the IPOD Killer http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/review/sony_network_walkman_nw_hd1_review smaller, more capacity than iPod and 30 hours of battery life but only playback ATRAC till Network Walkman was dead then Sony decided to support MP3 http://www.engadget.com/2004/09/22/sony-to-support-mp3/ Why does Sony does this?

I see Sony pushing Blu-Ray alot and for some reason it has great Manufacturers and Holywood support. Whether this is due to Sony’s influence or Sony’s parent company of Tristar, Columbia, Sony Pictures it does have exclusive support of other Non-Sony own companies. Now BlockBuster is added to the list of Blu-Ray supporters http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070618/ap_on_bi_ge/blockbuster_blu_ray_3.

Sometimes, I just wonder why does so many companies favor Blu-Ray? is it just the 25Gb space? Does Blu-Ray has other special characteristics that I don't know about (other than HD video medium).

Doesn’t this creates doubt on Sony’s products or ideas? It does to me. I would love to hear from Blu-Ray lovers why blu? But please be reasonable not just “Because I say so”.

[Sirber]

Going with Sony is never good (on long term).

... I fear this thread will go in a ranting :)

[communist]

Without going into detail - the 'cool' Sony is long gone, though their most of their professional stuff is still cool (and pricey).

As far as Blu-ray is concerned, if it fails in the consumer segment it might still become very successful in the pro segment (XDCAM). Though I do not really care which HD format ends up being the winner (if at all), because neither is very consumer friendly.

I have a rather split view on this company, for example most of the Sony stuff in our house has been working for years without any reduced quality. The pro stuff I've worked with was also of very high quality. Sony has made some really great products over the years.

On the other hand I see the usual lock-in pattern with a plethora of proprietary formats etc. The recent DRM ruckus also puts them in a very bad light.

The days of "Its not a trick. Its a Sony" are unfortunately long gone.

[setarip_old]

Hi!Why does Sony does this?It's called "innovation" - and when and if a new product takes hold, SONY stands to generate tons of income.

When you're an innovator, you don't hit a home run or score a goal every time, but when you do...

[Doom9]

Does Blu-Ray has other special characteristics that I don't know about (other than HD video medium).It's actually 50 gigs (dual layer) ;)
And yes, there are some things you are missing: the ROM Mark, and BD+. The former is more aimed at commercial piracy whereas the latter is meant to thwart any effort to back up your own movie should you manage to bypass AACS. BD+ is widely considered the reason why exclusively supports Blu-ray.

[Shinigami-Sama]

BD+ is widely considered the reason why exclusively supports Blu-ray.

ummm why sony supports?
I hate when I drop words like that :(

[Toti]

It's actually 50 gigs (dual layer) ;)
And yes, there are some things you are missing: the ROM Mark, and BD+. The former is more aimed at commercial piracy whereas the latter is meant to thwart any effort to back up your own movie should you manage to bypass AACS. BD+ is widely considered the reason why exclusively supports Blu-ray.

True, I didn't really think BD+ would make a difference. In my opinion, all copy protection methods will get bypassed. What is really a surprise to me is the speed in which copy protections get bypassed (I don't like to use the word cracked).

So, if it's true that BD+ will give Blu-Ray disc the edge when it comes to content. When BD+ gets bypassed then the Film Industry would support HD-DVD just as much? or maybe Blu-Ray has other copy protections that are not implemented yet nor mentioned?

I just think I am missing something because I just don't understand why so much support for blu-ray disc. I like HD-DVD since is more friendly to author (specially iHD over Java) and supports 1280X1080 but I like that fact that Blu-ray can be authored at 23.976 no pulldown flags needed.

Then, again I really liked the WMV-HD format for its Media Center compability but its online requirement I think killed it (I guess that's would be another thread).

[Gerard V]

I agree with those who see this as a deliberate strategy to generate new markets. Yes they float a lot of balloons and many pop. But many do not. Maybe their latest run is showing some problems with management, or just bad luck or bad timing, but bottom line is that Sony still makes top quality consumer gear that is reliable and attracts a premium price and brand loyalty. Minidisk didn't die until cheap digital players came on the market, and they could have made their bucks back with that. I have a Sony FX1E HDR Video Cam - because when buying a prosumer videocam in HD Sony had the best product and price at that time. If you think about it, the delays in launching the PS3 are have brought this grief to BD. If they had gotten that PS3 to market when they first intended BD would have been the only format.

[Doom9]

I actually forgot a word in my last sentence.. BD+ is why Fox exclusively supports Blu-ray.
It's pretty darned obvious why Sony doesn't support HD DVD - they get a lot more licensing fees for Blu-ray whereas they'd only get their share of the AACS licensing fees (and whatever codec patents fees that are applicable) with HD DVD.
I believe Disney went for Blu-ray due to the increased copy protection and the promise of Sony dumping millions into the format by selling th PS3 under production price. If disc and player sale numbers would favor HD DVD all of a sudden, I'd bet that Disney would be the first Blu-ray exclusive studio to go format neutral - they seem to be mostly interested in numbers, have no financial stake in the format and not as passionate about DRM as Fox.

In my opinion, all copy protection methods will get bypassed.I'm afraid I see this rather naive reasoning by many Blu-ray supporters. We are lucky that we are where we are today with AACS and just one example: Office 2003 has never been broken. And BD+ adds a whole other level of sophistication (hence once again the support by certain studios) on top of AACS.
It doesn't matter that in theory, anything but a one time pad is unbreakable - there are plenty of not readily beatable DRM schemes out there today - yes they can be circumvented, but it needs quite a bit of effort and / or a financial investment.

Maybe time will prove me wrong but DRM is one area where I'd rather be on the safe side and where being proven wrong still is a good thing - a human's desire to always being right notwithstanding. I only got a HD DVD drive after AACS had been broken, too.

When BD+ gets bypassed then the Film Industry would support HD-DVD just as much?If it is completely defeated (and keep in mind.. with AACS we have a cat and mouse game.. it's not like AACS is not effective and today it's not that easy to extract keys unless you have a very specific piece of hardware), the promise of an additional protection layer will still have a certain appeal - but essentially it becomes a number game. Once standalone sales become the driving force rather than console /console add-on sales, studios will support whichever format guarantees to move a significant number of discs. In the end, the DIVX exclusive, or DIVX favoring studios also had to get into the DVD game. If we suddenly have a couple million standalone Blu-ray players versus a few hundred thousand HD DVD players, then Universal will fold.. if the numbers are reversed, then the Blu-ray exclusives will have a hard time justifying not being format neutral.

[mk.2]

I would love to hear from Blu-Ray lovers why blu? But please be reasonable not just “Because I say so”.

I cannot say that I support Blu-ray as I don't have any blu-ray player. I rather stick with DVD until we have a clear winner.

However, I do wish Blu-ray will win this format war.
One and only major reason that I favour Blu-ray over HD-DVD is its larger capacity per layer. That means less discs to use in backing up my hard drive. Also, movie studios could use those extra space to put more extras or use higher bitrate for main movie.

[Doobie]

Industry support for blu-ray is starts and ends with copy protection.

Doom9 is right, it's pretty naive to think that Blu-ray will be cracked. AACS is simple, like the CSS on DVDs. With Blu-ray, heavy labor will be needed to crack each title, meaning most titles will go uncracked (Blu-ray can even provide unique protection for each disk sold). And, don't forget the encrypted output which closes the "analogue hole."

[Trahald]

The decision by blockbuster is surprising (the timing of it, not necessarily the choice). While I can see them switching if things turn enough, for the time being its significant as a lot of people rent over buying. Blurays strategy of looking as if they won before they have has definitely helped. (The quantity of software and the ps3 as 'standalone' in stats) . I hope all the money Universal is gonna lose on evan almighty doesn't hurt their resolve. ;)

[DanielSmith]

things in the world are changing so quicklly, especially tech.

[Doobie]

The decision by blockbuster is surprising (the timing of it, not necessarily the choice).

What's surprising? It would have been more surprising if they started renting Blu-ray before anyone had Blu-ray players or waited to test the market only after there are many millions of players out there. It would have been more surprising if instead they went with HD-DVD which has fewer players out there.

Blu-ray already has won because it has copy protection that practically cannot be defeated and the movie industry loves that. Blu-ray has won because the PS3 alone will put millions of Blu-ray players out there. Blu-ray has won because hybrid players is a de facto win for Blu-ray. Blu-ray has won because Sony will keep pumping out Blu-ray players until next-gen DVD players are obsolete.

BlockBuster doesn't need to wait to see who'll win. And, even if HD-DVD eventually wins, for now, Blu-Ray is where the rentals are and they can switch, or support both, if the market dictates

HD-DVD's only chance is consumer revolt. I'm sorry, I don't think that highly of humanity (I'm not a pandering politician). DVD beat (still uncracked) Divx (the DVD PPV scheme) because only Circuit City sold Divx (other stores didn't want to promote a product produced by their competition). Consumer intelligence had little to do with it.

BTW, I have no plans on buying a Blu-ray player.

[setarip_old]

I wonder how Blockbuster intends to reconcile its announced "BluRay, not HD-DVD" policy with its previously announced exclusive rental agreement with the Weinstein Company? In addition to standard DVD releases, The Weinstein Company will be releasing product in HD-DVD format (not BluRay)...

[Shinigami-Sama]

Regarding the PS3... I wonder if sony smartened up put aligned lasers in unlike the PS2 ;)
I remember seeing many 'dead' PS2s as people started watching dvds on them.

[HyperHacker]

So I went to Blockbuster today... they had plenty of HD-DVDs and the guy behind the counter said he hadn't heard anything about getting rid of them.

[Wolfman]

Look at blockbusters accounts at the financial year end and check for "incentive" payments. Or possibly some sort of reduced/costs fees.. any of these could account for their decision.. or even a secret future job offer to some hi exec, possibly, alledgedly.. All this talk about the extra space for commentarys etc is pure bogwash ..who want gigabytes of junk? why not put two films per disk. The ONLY way one format is better than another in studios eyes is a) numbers b) uncrackability .. and if you own the tech (for licence fees)

[Toti]

Well, Sony seems to be doing really well promoting its Blu-Ray Disc. Whatever means of incentives or "Promotion" they are doing seems to be getting some big players to back exclusively Blu-Ray. Blockbuster, Target & BJs?

I know it is still too early to see which one has won the war but undeniably someone seems to have the upper hand.

I still want to see what Wallmart, Best Buy & Circuit City are going to say.

[PuzZLeR]

AACS and BD+ are both reversible.

Computer Science Theory, in any age, in any capacity, as I remember it:

A computer can only really do two things: add and compare. Nothing more.

Everything else it does is a function, combination or repetition of these two functions all the way to games, music and video. This also includes colors, graphics, programs, etc, but no matter how complex, the computer is really only adding and comparing these 0s and 1s, which may be trillions of times a second, but it’s only really these two core functions that it activates.

Multiplication is addition many times. Division is that repetitive process reversed. Whether digits/parameters/etc are accepted or declined in a process is a function of comparison. This too can be reversed.

It also follows, to be consistent with this theory, that anything, no matter how complex or how difficult can be reversed.

Maybe it will take a higher complexity algorithm to do this, but nothing is irreversible otherwise this theory would be fallacy - and it isn’t. You can’t defy the very basic nature, and very behavior, of a computer and its treatment of those very 0s and 1s. This, since the dawn of computer science theory over 100 years ago, till the time I was enrolled in it well over a decade ago, till today, has never changed and never will.

Conclusion Repeated: AACS and BD+ are reversible, whether today, tomorrow or 50 years from now. They are reversible.

[foxyshadis]

Sure, but don't forget the most important maxim of encryption: Any code can be broken, no matter how good, what you care about is that by the time it's broken, it's useless to the cracker. That applies to movies as much as spies and business secrets, no one's going to care if they only start to trickle out in 2020.

In the BD+ case, it means reverse-engineering a modified JVM. Maybe it'll only be a few libraries that can be plucked off the disk, maybe it'll be a complete rewrite that needs a lot of hardware hacking to determine. It's too early to say yet, and all we can do is bide our time.

[MfA]

BD+ can't fix the hole left open by HDCP.

[PuzZLeR]

@foxyshadis:

I was talking just theoretically. A crack is not impossible whether now or later. In fact, all progress in tech has been because someone was able to break a barrier of some sort...

But you make a good point when you say that this protection could fulfill its purpose nevertheless even if it CAN and WILL be broken. It could take years before this crack comes our way, and by then, nobody will care when we're all into the new HyperViolet3DBlasterBeam discs encoded with H.269 Optimized.

At this point if someone announces a crack for BD+ he may be laughed at...

[HyperHacker]

Better late than never? :P

[gooki]

And yes, there are some things you are missing: the ROM Mark, and BD+. The former is more aimed at commercial piracy whereas the latter is meant to thwart any effort to back up your own movie should you manage to bypass AACS. BD+ is widely considered the reason why exclusively supports Blu-ray.

Just to add my 2 cents in. One of the biggest reason the public should be avoiding Blu-Ray is because you cannot release unencrypted video content on BD Video Rom.

All pressed discs mush contain BD+ and AACS encryption weather or not the content owner wishes to encrypt their film.

This is a PITA and big reason why BD will not and cannot replace DVD.

As soneone who has created many corporate promotional DVDs having to send a disc away for AACS encryption, paying the $1700-$3000 USD AACS fee and having everything back and pressed in time for a major tradeshow just isn't going to happen for companies outside of the film industry.

In reality though i don't like AACS i don't have anything against modest levels of copy protection, but forcing the content owners to use it, is not on.

On the flip side, with HD-DVD one is free to release content with or without AACS encryption. Which in the event studio come to their senses and realise copy protection is a waste of time and money they have the opportunity to release encryption free content without changing formats et etc.

Even though you'll probably laugh at the idea of big studios not using copyprotection/drm, it's happening in the online music world and could easily filter down to the optical media world.

[gooki]

Why does Sony does this?
It's called "innovation" - and when and if a new product takes hold, SONY stands to generate tons of income.

Alternatively it's called cocking up a whole industry. Does anyone think how much easier the transition from VHS to DVD would have been if Sony hadn't got so patent gready and released the DVD+RW format to compete with the DVD forum supported DVD-R and DVD-RW formats. I still get questions in this day in age as to what the differences are and which ones to buy.

Does anyone remember the lies the DVD+RW group spread to promote their format.
"more compatible"
"only format that supports VBR"

Hell do you remember how much of a cock up the DVD+RW group made in thinking no one wants a write once format. Then approx 12 motnhs after the DVD+RW release they create and introduce DVD+R because they were on so wrong.

Basically the point of this rant is do not trust Sony and their associated companies to make decissions that best suit you, the consumer.

[Toti]

Now that:
1. BD+ has been bypassed or "brought down to its knees" as quoted by Engadget HD Blu-Rays BD+ is Cracked (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/11/07/slysofts-latest-anydvd-beta-cracks-bd/)

2. HD-DVD players have hit the sub $200 range and $100 players have been released of what I think is temporary.

3. Paramount & Dreamworks now support HD-DVD exclusively

The same question I asked, why Blu-Ray still has FOX and Disney exclusively? Does anyone knows if 20th Century Fox has cancelled or delayed its releases on Blu-Ray do to BD+ inadequate security?

Anyway, what is the installed based players numbers now that toshiba sold about 10K players?

Check out this article that after I read it wow ITS TRUE!
Sony’s curse continues (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33489/128/)

for the record I have a Xbox HD-DVD drive & Sony's BDP-S1.

[Doom9]

I'm afraid Engadget is mistaken.. since the BD+ specs are under NDA, nobody exception the licensors and licensees (and the latter cannot talk due to the NDA) know whether the current solution if simply putting the entire BD+ folder with the decrypted files is
a) a spec violation (assuming BD+ requires the presence of AACS)
b) a loophole in the spec (assuming BD+ does not require the presence of AACS)

And regardless - this does not mean BD+ has been cracked. It simply was circumvented either due to an incorrect implementation on many players, or a bad spec (if it's that, expect the spec to be changed). But that doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with those titles now. True, you can play it without the AACS/HDCP requirement and even burn it on a BD-R(E) disc and play it in a standalone, but you are still limited to devices that can handle BD+ - there's no transcoding it to another format and I'm left wondering whether this is really the BD+ crack Slysoft has been talking about, or if this is just a surprising workaround they came up with in their process of actually defeating BD+.

If you think BD+ is final and there won't be any changes in the future - think again. AACS isn't up to version 1.0 yet and there will be changes coming that have to be implemented in all players (such as the watermarking thing). Who is to say that if it's option b) of the above, the specs won't be changed to mandate the presence of AACS?

[Toti]

Well, BD+ was to be impenetrable and wouldn't be cracked, bypassed or breached for 10 years "Blu-Ray's Copy Protection Advantage (http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom070807/index.php?startpage=10)". In the very least it just proved them wrong on that statement and raised a question if this protection will prevent anyone from making copies.

I really don't think Sony's Blu-Ray is dead or dying anytime soon. Even in the event of Blu-Ray's death Sony will keep feeding it just to prove their point.

Doesn't Blu-Ray and its copy protection brings back memories of Mini-Disc and its Sonic Stage software with check-in/check-out technique? instead of bypassing the atrac securities why not just grab a different player?

Am not a criminal I want to watch my videos thru Media Center and have my mostly watch videos on my local hard drive. Keep my originals safely on my library display. That's why personal reason liking HD-DVD.

Ofcourse, I don't have the money to buy HES-V100 Home Entertainment Unit (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644516277)

[Doom9]

Well, BD+ was to be impenetrable It still is.. there's no format conversion on any BD+ title at this point.

People claiming BD+ has been cracked only helps a format designed from ground up to screw you out of your fair use rights - those that potentially care about what they can do with their titles might decide it's safe to buy Blu-ray now, but it really isn't and making claims to the opposite is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

[Doobie]

Well, BD+ was to be impenetrable and wouldn't be cracked, bypassed or breached for 10 years "Blu-Ray's Copy Protection Advantage (http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/questex/hom070807/index.php?startpage=10)". In the very least it just proved them wrong on that statement and raised a question if this protection will prevent anyone from making copies.

Like the big guy said, BD+ hasn't been cracked. It's not much of a crack if you can't convert formats, but it is positive that you can backup your media.

The strength of BD+ isn't that instances of it can't be bypassed, but that any exploit someone finds can be easily addressed. BD+ is a virtual machine that runs code so it can be programmed to block anything like Slysoft's exploit, even retroactively by installing firmware updates so your backups will no longer play. It's surprising that such a simple loophole was left as copying a folder, so expect the next "crack" to be much tougher to come by.

It would be one of the greatest tech embarrassments of all time if Sony created this concrete and iron door to imprison blu-ray users, just to leave a window open by an irreparable design flaw.

[setarip_old]

@Doobie

Hi!It would be one of the greatest tech embarrassments of all time if Sony created this concrete and iron door to imprison blu-ray users, just to leave a window open by an irreparable design flaw.It would be nothing new for SONY. A few years ago, it only took a marking pen to make SONY's "impenetrable" CD copy protection disappear ;>}

[Toti]

@Doom9, you got a point there. Its true, some Blu-Rays can be re-encoded but that doesn't mean it will remain like that in the future.

I have 20 HD-DVDs and just 2 Blu-Rays.

[Doobie]

@Doobie

Hi!It would be nothing new for SONY. A few years ago, it only took a marking pen to make SONY's "impenetrable" CD copy protection disappear ;>}

The audio CD spec does not include any protection, so the idea of audio CD copy protection is oxymoronic. Sony broke spec to come up with a trivial ad hoc protection (a dummy data track that CD audio players doesn't try to read, but computers do), no less trivial than marking on the CD with a marker (covering the data track so the computer only finds the audio).

Blu-ray is built on a foundation of solid copy protection (that's why it's the darling of the studios). The situation with BD+ is the opposite of the CD audio situation. What Slysoft did is as weak as what Sony did with audio CDs. And, Sony can defeat the "crack" with as little effort as making a mark with a marker.

Some idiot at Wikipedia added to the BD+ entry, "SlySoft announced that they had completely cracked BD+." Slysoft reasonably haven't made that claim, just like Sony never claimed their dummy data track was impenetrable.

[foxyshadis]

History has shown that if a virtual machine can run someone's code, it can probably be exploited to run someone else's code on the same data, which can potentially be used to discover keys. Afterward, by recreating the virtual machine and feeding it the discovered keys, the runtime code can be deceived about where it's actually running and decode video without complaint. The greatest advantage of virtual machines in the real world is a weakness here.

It can get progressively more difficult to discover keys without hardware hacks as time goes on, but once you have the keys nothing can prevent you from running the code - so it's really no different from AACS that way, just an enormously complicated layer for very little gain.

[Doom9]

Keep in mind that BD+ was finalized months after AACS had been "cracked" (it hasn't really been cracked either.. we just found the proper codes to decode discs the official way - you got to give the designers a little credit.

[HyperHacker]

Maybe "beaten" is a better term. We won the battle, but the war isn't over.