Nero Digital AVC flag

[PuzZLeR]

With the “Nero Digital AVC” stand-alone players apparently reaching the market sometime soon, some of us are wondering if the only AVC content they’ll accept is that of Nero Digital and Nero Digital AVC.

Many of us here have plenty of x264 content as well, however if these machines disqualify this video, then it would suck. AVC is AVC, and should be respected as such, regardless of implementation.

Having said that, I would think it would be a GUI issue, not a codec one. Nero Digital (AVC) content comes from Nero Recode, AFAIK the only GUI for Ateme’s implementation of AVC.

Both Ateme and x264 have very similar features in quality and both comply to the H.264/AVC standard. I can only assume that it would be some “flag” or “stamp” in the video stream itself created by Nero Recode, the GUI not the codec, that would be read by these players, if they intend to use only Nero Digital (AVC) content.

My question:
Assuming these players reject non-ND content, is there any procedure, or way of determining and changing this “atom” or whatever it is that is in this stream without re-encoding? I do plan to buy one of these players, but I want them to also play my x264 stuff as well. There’s a similar logic between DivX and Xvid when it comes to this, so I felt I can ask.

Note to any Nero personnel reading this: I will respect whatever you do with these players, and many of us are very excited about your bringing them to us, however if the decision is to limiting them to only ND content then that would be a bad business move IMHO. If that is the case, nothing will stop other companies from creating players that accept more implementations of H.264, including x264, ND and others. This would hurt the “Nero Digital AVC” certification.

[Kurtnoise]

is there any procedure, or way of determining and changing this “atom” or whatever it is that is in this stream without re-encoding?
Yes...

MP4Box -brand xxxx -add input.mp4 output.mp4

Where xxxx can be :
ndxm (Mobile)
ndxp (Portable)
ndxs (Standard)
ndxc (Cinema)
ndxh (HDTV)

More infos about AVC Profiles : here (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/AVC_profiles.html)...

[Zero1]

IMO, I would stick with the standard Profiles/Levels set by MPEG. Also I can't see any reason why a player would refuse to play an encode just because it does not have a "Nero profile" - you would isolate so many encodes and it would create bad press for the player.

One player I recall was KiSS 1600; which was at the time, touted as a Nero digital AVC player - I have read that this unit plays bog standard H.264 in MP4. I have one on order and it should arrive around the 1st of June.

Really, I don't know why companies go making up their own profiles when the MPEG ones are fine. DivX does this too - I just don't see the point.

[bond]

:stupid:

[PuzZLeR]

Thanks for the response.

Kurtnoise13:
Tried the CL and I now get a picture in thumbnail icon view, something only the Nero AVC files displayed in Explorer, not the ones from x264. There definitely is a difference. The Nero software is reading them like it's their own. So they SHOULD play in the ND AVC stand-alone players if they were to be rejected without this flag. Thanks!

A couple of observations: When checking with YAMB, there was no "ndxx" anywhere in the Nero files previously though, only "mp42", which is strange. Files encoded with AutoMKV/x264 had "isom" and those with HandBrake/x264 also had "mp42". Strange again. Anyhow, I do notice the difference with this command nevetheless.

Zero1:
When you do get this player, hopefully you can revive this thread with your findings as to which content it plays regarding implementation, profile and level of H.264. That would be really cool.

And yes, I agree with the bad press if Nero were to limit this player. I can understand when it's a multiple ref frame issue since it's more demanding on hardware, etc., but when it's a flag thing to restrict, it would be a low blow. Not sure it it's illegal, but definitely would make Nero look bad.

Bond:
Who ya callin' stoopid, huh?:p

[Kurtnoise]

A couple of observations: When checking with YAMB, there was no "ndxx" anywhere in the Nero files previously though, only "mp42", which is strange. Files encoded with AutoMKV/x264 had "isom" and those with HandBrake/x264 also had "mp42". Strange again. Anyhow, I do notice the difference with this command nevetheless.
Using a recent MP4Box's build, you should be able to see the Brand Name for ND files...

Something like that :
MP4Box.exe -info "E:\tmp\PerfectStranger_Port_AVC.mp4"
* Movie Info *
Timescale 90000 - Duration 00:02:30.464
Fragmented File no - 2 track(s)
File Brand ndxp - version 0
Created: GMT Thu Dec 14 22:22:51 2006

File has no MPEG4 IOD/OD

Track # 1 Info - TrackID 1 - TimeScale 24000 - Duration 00:02:30.441
Media Info: Language "Undetermined" - Type "vide:avc1" - 3607 samples
MPEG-4 Config: Visual Stream - ObjectTypeIndication 0x21
AVC/H264 Video - Visual Size 352 x 192 - Profile Baseline @ Level 1.3
NAL Unit length bits: 32
Pixel Aspect Ratio 135:134 - Indicated track size 352 x 192
Self-synchronized

Track # 2 Info - TrackID 2 - TimeScale 32000 - Duration 00:02:30.464
Media Info: Language "Undetermined" - Type "soun:mp4a" - 4702 samples
MPEG-4 Config: Audio Stream - ObjectTypeIndication 0x40
MPEG-4 Audio AAC LC - 2 Channel(s) - SampleRate 32000
Synchronized on stream 1

[Kurtnoise]

@PuzZLeR : I added some ND Profiles into MediaInfo. So, grab the GUI from the official website and replace MediaInfo.dll by this one (http://kurtnoise.free.fr/index.php?dir=misc/&file=MediaInfo-0.7.4.8.zip). You should be able to have them except for the iPod Profile because it uses the standard for the brand name (i.e the major version aka mp42...)

[CruNcher]

IMO, I would stick with the standard Profiles/Levels set by MPEG. Also I can't see any reason why a player would refuse to play an encode just because it does not have a "Nero profile" - you would isolate so many encodes and it would create bad press for the player.

Really, I don't know why companies go making up their own profiles when the MPEG ones are fine. DivX does this too - I just don't see the point.

Do you live in the same World as we live in ;) it's absolutely a normal task to make such stuff uninteroperable with other competitors formats (even if based on the same Standard they researched together on) these days :P (and it will get harder to circumvent such things in the future with all the protected CE stuff based on TPM's and Hypervisor's coming).

It's not anymore about what the Hardware can or can't do it's about for wich feature you pay for, it's a complete new market (firmware feature licensing) and the possibilities are endless if user wan't X264 support they should pay for it (sp a Dialog is gonna open and ask you for your Credit Card Number) that's what possible these days and will be used much more in the Future i can tell ya.

The brand is not the only way they could restrict it another possibility would be their encoder version in the bitstream and or maybe somekind of watermark ;)

And another question who would by a DSP Standalone (Asia) these days if the Next Gen Consoles are much more Powerfull in playback capabilities even in the years ahead (PS3,Xbox360) :P (yeah i know "we" can't use that Power fully yet ;) )

[PuzZLeR]

@Kurtnoise13::thanks:

I've also been playing around alot with your suggestions since. It's really quite simple. And thanks for the file - very helpful!

As far as iPod is concerned - iPod is iPod, not specific to Nero or anything else other than the iPod, so this profile is really in its own class anyway whether it's encoded by Nero or x264. This profile is not an issue in playback devices in this particular case because it's quite specific.

@CruNcher:
I dream of the day when all the video I have collected and encoded will be only in one format and will play on any computer, any stand-alone, any portable, any optical disc format, any network, any streaming device, any ...

Now wouldn't that be grand?