Motion problem after converting fullscreen to wide

[sadsack]

I'm adding some deleted scenes back into a widescreen movie. The scenes have black bars but the video is actually fullscreen, so I used Tmpgenc to change the format to match movie. I simultaneously cropped top and bottom 60 pixels and changed aspect to 16/9. The picture looks good enough, but the motion isn't smooth (has that slight incremental look). I didn't change the other settings, except to match the bitrate (9500 in Constant Bitrate) to the original movie. What am I doing wrong?

[45tripp]

Could you post info from mediainfo about original clip, and deleted scenes clip?
Samples would be good. I'll try if you supply.

[sadsack]

I'm not sure how to add a sample of the video - do I load it into youtube, or rapidshare? I would only use a short part, as I'm using dialup.
Here's a link to an image showing the media info for the clip I'm working with - before and after Tmpgenc. At the bottom is media info of destination movie.
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/8144/mediainfoxx9.jpg
I used Belight to convert the clip's AC3 audio to AC3 6-channel to match the movie audio. The volume is too low, but I'll fix that if I can get the video right.

[45tripp]

that's not all the info mediainfo provides.
a sample at rapidshare. the mpeg videos.
Samples can be short. But should be enough so that you can get a target with them in which the problem is evident. That way if I'm successful, I'll have no doubts as to if the samples are enough of a sample

[scharfis_brain]

I guess, that you need interlaced treatment to convert you video to widescreen.

But I am curious for the sample as well. Upload it to rapidshare or the like. Don't use youtube.

[sadsack]

that's not all the info mediainfo provides.
a sample at rapidshare. the mpeg videos.
Samples can be short. But should be enough so that you can get a target with them in which the problem is evident. That way if I'm successful, I'll have no doubts as to if the samples are enough of a sample

Which "view" of mediainfo do you need?

I made 2 clips (26 sec each) from the same area on both the before and after converted video, but rapidshare says it will take over an hour to upload just one clip. I'd like to trim the clip down - how much video do you need?

[45tripp]

The tree view.
I think if you upload 10sec of each it'll be ok.
To be sure use the samples and see that you can reproduce your problem with them.

[sadsack]

Here's 2 tree-view images (before/after clip, & movie):
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/5189/clipsko5.jpg
http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/5897/destinationmovietj9.jpg
I noticed the converted clip was 3x the size of the original clip. Is that relevant?
Also, I tried doing the conversion in two steps (crop the pixels, then change the aspect ratio), as well as combining both steps in one conversion. Same results with the motion.
Here's a 10 sec. clip from the original deleted fullscreen scene:
http://rapidshare.com/files/33399013/VTS_01_1.VOB.html
The same clip convertd to widescreen:
http://rapidshare.com/files/33427868/VTS_01_1.VOB

[manono]

Hi-

You took a 23.976fps progressive source and in the process of cropping, resizing, and encoding for 16:9, pretty much butchered it.

You didn't resize it properly, as I see interlacing artifacts in there. The main thing you did wrong, though, was to create a duplicate frame every 5th frame. It's the duplicate frames that give it that stuttering motion. Since I don't use TMPGEnc, I don't know what you did to get that. You should have taken the progressive 23.976fps source and cropped, resized, and encoded for 23.976fps with pulldown applied either during the encoding or afterwards. If you're not going to use an AviSynth script file (?), I think you should learn to use TMPGEnc properly.

I didn't change the other settings, except to match the bitrate (9500 in Constant Bitrate) to the original movie. What am I doing wrong?

Where did you get the idea that the movie was encoded at 9500 CBR? You did about everything wrong.

[sadsack]

manono,
I was trying to take your advice from Videohelp except using Tmpgenc instead of Avisynth:
http://forum.videohelp.com/topic312303.html
I cropped the the top and bottom 60 pixels, and changed the aspect ratio from 4/3 to 16/9, as you instructed. If I join the converted clip with the destination movie, they are the same size, so I think that worked.
From Mediainfo (which I guess isn't always accurate?) it says the original clip was 29.97 fps, and my destination movie also 29.97, so I didn't change that with Tmpgenc.
I had the impression that after loading a video into Tmpgenc, it displayed all the currect specs, and wouldn't change them unless you tinkered with the settings. That's why I said I didn't change anything else, except CBR.
I guess I don't undertand the bitrate setting - again, Mediainfo says the original was 9800 kbit, so I set the converted copy to be similar.
I've just started using Tmpgenc - should I have posted this question in a newbie forum?

[45tripp]

Mediainfo provides correct info,
you need to update your version.

it's partly my fault for suggesting it though as I supppose a gspot pic would have brought a swifter solution.

I noticed the converted clip was 3x the size of the original clip. Is that relevant?
Yes you doubled bitrate and added an extra frame for every 4.

It's 23.976 with pulldown flags. Playback is at 29.97 with a player honouring the flags.

There's a pulldown option in tmpg, encode to 23.976 progressive and tick pulldown.
TMPGenc 3 4?
what exactly are you using/doing?

[sadsack]

I have Tmgenc 2.5 plus.
I updated mediainfo, and here's new info for the before/after clip, and destination movie. I see it includes a bitrate in the "General" section which is different than the "video" section (4400 vs 9800). So I should have used 4400? If not CBR, then what mode?
In mediainfo, is the 23 fps implied by pulldown flags? If so, how are the flags indicated in mediainfo?
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1297/newclipinfotn4.jpg
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1234/destmoviedy4.jpg

I didn't mean to add an extra frame (I don't know how I did that). So any quick advice about how to do this properly with Tmpgenc?

[manono]

So any quick advice about how to do this properly with Tmpgenc?

By frameserving using an AviSynth script. Make the D2V using DGIndex set for Force Film (23.976fps). Do the cropping and resizing in the script:

LoadPlugin("C:\Path\To\DGDecode.dll")
MPEG2Source("C:\Path\To\Movie.d2v")
Crop(0,60,0,-60)
Lanczos4Resize(720,480)
ConvertToRGB24()#for TMPGEnc

Then, although this guide is for converting an AVI to MPEG-2, it'll do for your purposes:
NTSC 23.976fps: Set the "Encode Mode" setting further down the Video Tab settings to "3:2 Pulldown when playback". Then set this to "23.976 fps (internally 29.97fps).

http://members.dodo.net.au/~jimmalenko/AVI2DVD.htm

The Doom9 guide uses the D2V as a source, but since you're cropping and resizing, I'd still recommend doing it in AviSynth:

http://www.doom9.org/mpg/tmpg-dvdencoding.htm

Be careful, though, as you can't take all his settings on faith, but it does have some good pics that will prevent some of the mistakes you made before.

[sadsack]

So...noone can explain how mediainfo indicates that the clip is actually 23 fps, not 29 as shown? Or how to use Tmpgenc to convert the clip correctly?
I'm also wondering what setting is used to add a frame (as I'd like to make sure it's set to NOT do that).

[Guest]

So...noone can explain how mediainfo indicates that the clip is actually 23 fps, not 29 as shown? It doesn't. Do this: Load the VOB into DGIndex and set Video/Field Operation to Honor Pulldown Flags. Then hit F5 for a preview. The Info dialog will appear and show the frame rate as 29.97. You will also see the Field repeats box incrementing, indicating that fields are being repeated. That is the clue that the source is actually prgressive at 23.976fps. Let it preview for a while and then stop it and do the math:

(coded # / playback #) * 29.97 -> 23.976

[45tripp]

mediainfo

No it doesn't but gspot does. You'll see the diff in pic/s vs frames/s.

Or how to use Tmpgenc to convert the clip correctly?

Manono has already provided a complete answer. Using DGindex and avisynth.
result:
http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=151960

If you want you can remove croping, resizing from the script and let tmpg do it. But it's slower. No reason to do that.
Also there's a diff in source aspect settings.
With avisynth crop/resize, set source aspect to 16:9 ntsc
Without, using tmpg to crop/resize, set source aspect to 4:3 ntsc.

I'm also wondering what setting is used to add a frame (as I'd like to make sure it's set to NOT do that).

It comes from feeding the encoder with 23.976 input and asking for 29.97 output. The encoder changes the framerate by adding an extra frame for every 4.

How are you importing your material to tmpg anyway?
Your duplicate frame result suggests tmpg correctly recognizes 23.976 prog material and all that's needed is to set output framerate to 23.976 with 3:2 pulldown.

If importing to tmpg (m2v vfapi), your material was recognized as 29.97, and you wanted to avoid using DGindex and avisynth, you could use tmpg's inverse telecine.
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/tmpg-ivtc.htm
Much slower than dgindex/avisynth...
Again no reason not to use the method suggested by manono.

gl

[sadsack]

It's only about 10 minutes of video, so I don't mind it taking longer just using Tmgenc. I don't know how to use scriptware - I realize I can just paste the script in, but I didn't have luck frameserving when I tried it awhile ago and didn't receive any further advice about how to do it correctly. Thanks for the info about determining the fps, and setting up Tmpgenc. I'll report back after I get some time to redo everything.