Latest AACS revision defeated a week before release

[lightshadow]

Can anyone please explain how AnyDVD could have found this new Processing Key that fast? Have they perhaps ripped it from PowerDVD?

And have AACSLA only changed the Processing Key for the new discs, or have they made other changes?

But perhaps most important; Can we find this new Processing Key? =)

Latest AACS revision defeated a week before release (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070517-latest-aacs-revision-defeated-a-week-before-release.html)
Anydvd HD 6.1.5.1 beta ChangeLog (http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=4255)

[linx05]

AnyDVD HD works differently than the tools made here. I guess you could ask them if you really wanted to know.

[bourke]

AnyDVD HD works differently than the tools made here. I guess you could ask them if you really wanted to know.I think his was a rhetorical question! :-P

Anyway - we already do know that AnyDVD uses the host key from a software player - it therefore doesn't require the processing keys.

(another user already pointed out that this is the reason why SlySoft didn't even have any discs with new encryption when they wrote the new version of AnyDVD)

[FoxDisc]

AnyDVD HD works differently than the tools made here.

Not really. All the tools here and the AnyDVD tool work in the same fundamental way They decrypt using a key from an authorized player or they look up a key that an authorized player has already decrypted.

[FoxDisc]

Anyway - we already do know that AnyDVD uses the host key from a software player - it therefore doesn't require the processing keys.(another user already pointed out that this is the reason why SlySoft didn't even have any discs with new encryption when they wrote the new version of AnyDVD)

This is incorrect. The host key that AnyDVD used previously (from PowerDVD) was revoked by HRL Revocation in the new discs along with the device keys and processing keys. The host key does not avoid the need for a processing key/device keys - you need both.

The answer to the original question - how did AnyDVD write a decrypter without one of the new discs is probably that they decompiled/reverse engineered the updated software player to get a new host key and set of device keys. The updates have been out for weeks and I'm sure they began to take them apart the moment they got them. That is actually the method that most people expected would be used.

[LoloMc]

The answer to the original question - how did AnyDVD write a decrypter without one of the new discs is probably that they decompiled/reverse engineered the updated software player to get a new host key and set of device keys. The updates have been out for weeks and I'm sure they began to take them apart the moment they got them. That is actually the method that most people expected would be used.

The other way could also be that they made what Geremia and Arnezami wanted to do... IE modify the xbox 360 HD-DVD to get the key :D

[Fahzuu]

The other way could also be that they made what Geremia and Arnezami wanted to do... IE modify the xbox 360 HD-DVD to get the key :D

What was that about? Do you have a link to a related post?

[FoxDisc]

The other way could also be that they made what Geremia and Arnezami wanted to do... IE modify the xbox 360 HD-DVD to get the key :D

The xbox mod will let them read a volume ID from a disc without a host key. That's useful, in decrypting that one disc if you already have a device key or a processing key, but it doesn't help you decrypt other discs, which is what AnyDVD appeasrs to do. I doubt that the xbox hack helped them much.

The software updates had hidden device keys and a host key. Slysoft probably pulled a set from one of those updates. Alternatively, they might have pulled a set of keys from a hardware player. That would be a bit more problematic, because the LA should be able to identify the specific player.

People are saying that the new AnyDVD was written before they got hold of a disc. If that's true, then their new software would have needed a host key and device keys. The device keys would tell the LA where AnyDVD got them. I didn't follow the timing of all this, so I suppose they might have written the software without keys and had the software send them the AACS files from any new discs it couldn't decrypt. They could then analyze and send keys back to the software. People would probably not notice that, and it would look like the new software was written before the discs.

I say this, because I suspect Slysoft would prefer not to put device keys in their software to help hide their source. Processing keys are more anonymous, and VUKs are completely anonymous.

[lightshadow]

I didn't follow the timing of all this, so I suppose they might have written the software without keys and had the software send them the AACS files from any new discs it couldn't decrypt. They could then analyze and send keys back to the software. People would probably not notice that, and it would look like the new software was written before the discs.

I say this, because I suspect Slysoft would prefer not to put device keys in their software to help hide their source. Processing keys are more anonymous, and VUKs are completely anonymous.
So as long AnyDVD is around, we won't have to get our hands dirty?=) We can just sniff the network connection from AnyDVD, and we might get the device key or processing key that AnyDVD uses?

[FoxDisc]

So as long AnyDVD is around, we won't have to get our hands dirty?=) We can just sniff the network connection from AnyDVD, and we might get the device key or processing key that AnyDVD uses?

I think that's unlikely, but I can't be sure. Even if they did this early on, they'd probably have encrypted the transmission, stopped doing it after getting a new disc and just require people to update to the new software.

If they are using DKs now, they'd be buried just like the software updates have hidden them - you could get them from either spot. If they are not using device keys, then they will have a processing key, again (I suspect) obfuscated/encrypted and buried. AnyDVD should also have a database of keys it knows about, so that may also be hidden, and that's something that the software updates would not have. I keep expecting someone to break AnyDVDs database of keys.

[Fahzuu]

I keep expecting someone to break AnyDVDs database of keys.

Does anyone know, what size this database would be, in case it contained nearly all titles? (e.g. how many discs are out there)

[bcrabl]

Isn't the whole thread ironic?

Instead of trying to hack powerdvd to get the keys, to hack another programme!!!

(I bet slysoft protects the keys better than cyberlink)

[FTX]

Does anyone know, what size this database would be, in case it contained nearly all titles? (e.g. how many discs are out there)

Based on DVDempire :
HD-DVD: 195 available and 82 announced
Blu-ray: 231 available and 58 announced

F

[bourke]

Anyway - we already do know that AnyDVD uses the host key from a software playerThis is incorrect... they decompiled/reverse engineered the updated software player to get a new host key...

Isn't that what I wrote?! I said they used the new host key from a player?! What is so incorrect about that?!

[Johhn]

Isn't that what I wrote?! I said they used the new host key from a player?! What is so incorrect about that?!

There seems to be a bit of confusion there. If by "AnyDVD using a player host key" you mean that Slysoft have grabbed and used such a key in the course of creating the latest AnyDVD, then that is almost certainly true. But it does not follow from that that AnyDVD uses that key to decrypt disks with. It might use derivative information (such as a processing key), in which case they would have needed to have data off of disks even if they didn't have the disks themselves. But in that case, most of the work would have been done before the disks turned up.

[FoxDisc]

Isn't that what I wrote?! I said they used the new host key from a player?! What is so incorrect about that?!

This part was wrong: "AnyDVD uses the host key from a software player - it therefore doesn't require the processing keys"

The host key (or a VID) and a processing key (or device keys) are both needed.

[Fahzuu]

Based on DVDempire :
HD-DVD: 195 available and 82 announced
Blu-ray: 231 available and 58 announced

...so you probably have to multiply this by 3 (for all regions).
Makes roughly 900 entries.

This would result in a database of at least 32k or so (20 Bytes for some hash probably and 16 for the key).
...in case we're looking for that.

[dacium]

I think it is pretty obvious that are disassembling and finding the player key. THis is blantently confirmed by the fact they use the exact same authentification certificate.

The AACS is unable to go after them, because slysoft is in the west indies in a small country that doesn't even follow international copyright, let alone have anything resembling the digital millenium rights act. Does anyone else have time to dissambled and go through all the code? Would be a huge job, but with enough full time employees I guess they got it done quite some time ago, and that they can probably pretty easily now instantly recognise the majority of subroutines by the source code so they should be able to find the new keys very easily.

[k-c-ksum]

post deleted

[blutach]

@k-c-ksum

Please observe rule 15.

Regards

[hdlover]

Thank god for AnyDVD-It was the ONLY way to completely watch some problematic movies (after ripping).

[Geremia]

andvd (at least 6.1.5.5 i've) seems to not use AACS auth stuff with the drive, at least for kingkong.
I've burned a udf2.5 dvd+rw with crypted kingkong files (cut the main movie .evo to 16MB) and anydvd was able to de-AACS it, the DELOGO.EVO was playing well.

[evdberg]

This clearly proofs that they also store the VUKs to the movies in their product. If I remember correctly they denied this on their own forum ...

[Galileo2000]

This clearly proofs that they also store the VUKs to the movies in their product. If I remember correctly they denied this on their own forum ...

OK, how did they make it with the Matrix2 and 3 discs?

They released 6.1.5.4 before the Matrix HD Trilogy was released. And they didn't have the discs, unless someone delivered the discs to Antigua straight from the factory and before the official US release.

Or they have their agent working for AACS.

[arnezami]

OK, how did they make it with the Matrix2 and 3 discs?

They released 6.1.5.4 before the Matrix HD Trilogy was released. And they didn't have the discs, unless someone delivered the discs to Antigua straight from the factory and before the official US release.

Or they have their agent working for AACS.

I thought we had covered all this.

AnyDVD has 2 modes: (1) Device/Processing Key + Host Private Key and if that somehow fails it goes back to (2) local database of VUKs. Its a very sensible approach.

And I believe FoxDisc has made these conclusions already.

arnezami

[Galileo2000]

I thought we had covered all this.

AnyDVD has 2 modes: (1) Device/Processing Key + Host Private Key and if that somehow fails it goes back to (2) local database of VUKs.

I believe FoxDisc has made these conclusions already.

arnezami


You are right, I forgot.

Reread the thread.

[SuperGoof]

AnyDVD has 2 modes: (1) Device/Processing Key + Host Private Key and if that somehow fails it goes back to (2) local database of VUKs. Its a very sensible approach.


I would swap (1) and (2). I think they use local database of VUKs first, and if it fails they do standard AACS auth. I would do it this way to prevent unnecessary exposure of keys.

[bourke]

I would swap (1) and (2). I think they use local database of VUKs first, and if it fails they do standard AACS auth. I would do it this way to prevent unnecessary exposure of keys.No it would not - do you really think the AACS LA don't know how to find the download from the SlySoft web site and test a new unreleased disc straight off the press?

[honai]

They released 6.1.5.4 before the Matrix HD Trilogy was released. And they didn't have the discs, unless someone delivered the discs to Antigua straight from the factory and before the official US release.

No. James in their forum said that they were waiting for the discs before they could adapt AnyDVD-HD.

Also, the official street date for Matrix Trilogy was broken, so that's the reason why many folks got the impression that SlySoft didn't need the discs. They did.

And their programmers aren't working in Antigua at all. Without delving into the details, but before "selling" the product line to SlySoft the chief programmer used to code in a nice small town in Germany. The "move to Antigua" was simply meant as an evasion of tightening DMCA-inspired laws in Germany and the EU. SlySoft's webserver is still located in Europe, and most of their staff is using VPN lines which don't junction in Antigua ...

[SuperGoof]

No it would not - do you really think the AACS LA don't know how to find the download from the SlySoft web site and test a new unreleased disc straight off the press?

Actually this dispute can easily be resolved by someone who knows how to monitor bus communication with the drive. Just insert a well-known disc while AnyDVD is running and see whether it performes AACS auth or not. My bet is that it doesn't (for well-known discs). Though I'm not sure about it.

For unknown discs I would do auth only when you insert the disc for the first time. I would update the DB and use VUKs from the DB next time. Also I would send new VUKs back to Slysoft using https if there is such possibility (network not blocked etc.).

[FoxDisc]

Actually this dispute can easily be resolved by someone who knows how to monitor bus communication with the drive. Just insert a well-known disc while AnyDVD is running and see whether it performes AACS auth or not.

Either the AnyDVD software has a processing key/device key in or it doesn't. If it does, then Bourke is right and AACSLA can easily use an unreleased disc and run AnyDVD on it, exposing the PK Slysoft is using and revoking it next time.

The ony way Slysoft can hide anything is to use only their database, and never put a PK or DK in the software. For that to work they'd need to send the MKB back home each time a new disc is encountered, (and the Volume ID), then return the decrypted VUK to everyone to update the database. VUKs are anonymous and hide the DK/PK that was used to get the VUK, preventing the LA from revoking anything. I don't think Slysoft does that, but they could.

My bet is that it doesn't (for well-known discs). Though I'm not sure about it.

For unknown discs I would do auth only when you insert the disc for the first time. I would update the DB and use VUKs from the DB next time. Also I would send new VUKs back to Slysoft using https if there is such possibility (network not blocked etc.).

This just doesn't hide anything if the software has the PK/DK in it.

[Peer van Heuen]

And their programmers aren't working in Antigua at all. Without delving into the details, but before "selling" the product line to SlySoft the chief programmer used to code in a nice small town in Germany. The "move to Antigua" was simply meant as an evasion of tightening DMCA-inspired laws in Germany and the EU. SlySoft's webserver is still located in Europe, and most of their staff is using VPN lines which don't junction in Antigua ...

Nice insider news :D

Hell, I'm probably dreaming. You mean, when I wake up, I'm no longer in Antigua? I'll be in Europe?!? :eek:

The webservers are located in different countries.

And... nope, no VPN lines, sorry... :o

[Galileo2000]

Nice insider news :D

Hell, I'm probably dreaming. You mean, when I wake up, I'm no longer in Antigua? I'll be in Europe?!? :eek:

The webservers are located in different countries.

And... nope, no VPN lines, sorry... :o

Hi Peer, good to see you here.

You are in the Matrix reality, don't you know? :D

[snipper_cr]

Hi Peer, good to see you here.

You are in the Matrix reality, don't you know? :D

Thats actually a really good analogy. I was originally going to make some witty comment about "There is no spoon" when I started to think....

This really is like the matrix. Some huge conglomoration wishes complete and total control (in the Matrix, our lives. In today... our media). Sure enough, a few people find a way to overcome it and wage an increasingly highier stakes war. It seemed like no matter what the machines did, the humans could almost always find a way around it. And even if it was major, they still did something.

Some thought that AACS would be the end of "free media" and in reality it has been quite the opposite. The main "hackers" here have proven themselves far FAR faster, smarter, more cunning than the AACSLA.

So just remember.... there is no spoon.

[delacroixp]

Thats actually a really good analogy. I was originally going to make some witty comment about "There is no spoon" when I started to think....

This really is like the matrix. Some huge conglomoration wishes complete and total control (in the Matrix, our lives. In today... our media). Sure enough, a few people find a way to overcome it and wage an increasingly highier stakes war. It seemed like no matter what the machines did, the humans could almost always find a way around it. And even if it was major, they still did something.

Some thought that AACS would be the end of "free media" and in reality it has been quite the opposite. The main "hackers" here have proven themselves far FAR faster, smarter, more cunning than the AACSLA.

So just remember.... there is no spoon.
I guess that at the end of the day... we all are 'the machines' or possibly, 'the ghost inside the machine'...
Whether it's a huge conglomerate or 'your next-door neighbour' wishing complete and total control... there's always someone pulling in a different direction...

Somebody once said: 'freedom is there to protect us against somebody else's Utopia'.


:):D:eek:
Pascal