Shaw Bros DVD - Convert to DivX

[Dashiell]

I hope I will be explicit as possible...

I have a bunch of Shaw Bros DVDs that are old-school kung-fu films made in the late 70s, early 80s. They are all definitely shot on film.

Before conversion, I run them through DGIndex to get a sense of what I'm dealing with. It tells me that the film has been encoded on the DVD as NTSC video, interlaced, 29.97fps top-field first.

Ok, so now I realize that these movies from SB were definitely shot on film, but are not recognized as containing 3:2 pulldown. I set the script for IVTC with reporting, and the plugin shows no ability to "lock" onto 3:2 pulldown content at all. It's locking is extremely erratic.

What I am actually getting at is this: these films were definitely shot 24fps on film. Does anyone see any potential problems if I set the IVTC to: AssumeTFF().Telecide (guide=0,post=2)? I'm trying to avoid the "jumpyness" issue.

Thanks for any insight.

[setarip_old]

Hi!

As an experiment, you might try processing one of these with MPEGMediator...

[Dashiell]

Hi!

As an experiment, you might try processing one of these with MPEGMediator...

Alrighty... based on your advice I have downloaded the MPEGMediator Special Edition. I'm not at the PC that will do the actual encoding at the moment, but I will try it as soon as I get home.

This prog is able to import vobs and encode to DivX with MP3 format sound, correct?

Also, is there a way to add subtitles to the output .avi file? I have them in the .srt format and like them "forced" into the avi.

One other question... is there an issue with it using the latest version of the DivX Pro codec?

I will let you know how it goes!:thanks:

[vybez]

You will not be able to ivtc these as although they were initially shot on film, the dvds have been done from 25fps masters and field blended so that regular ivtc doesn't work. Try Mrestore, Restore24 or RePal to return it to 25fps (see other threads in forum on how to use them).

[Dashiell]

You will not be able to ivtc these as although they were initially shot on film, the dvds have been done from 25fps masters and field blended so that regular ivtc doesn't work. Try Mrestore, Restore24 or RePal to return it to 25fps (see other threads in forum on how to use them).

Thank you! That is the answer I was looking for. I decided to keep the orginal frame rate and just telecide the clip (without decimate) and all went well. The frame analysis on telecide showed an "unlockable" pattern that had no resemblance to 3:2 pulldown, so that's how I decided to go with the default 29.97 framerate of the dvd.

[setarip_old]

Did you try MPEGMediator?

[Dashiell]

Did you try MPEGMediator?

I did start to, but unless I'm missing something there is no way to add AviSynth script parameters.

[setarip_old]

I was just wondering if it processed the videostream to your liking?

[manono]

Thank you! That is the answer I was looking for. I decided to keep the orginal frame rate and just telecide the clip (without decimate) and all went well
I find that strange, though. vybez gave you the answer, you seemed to understand what he was saying and thanked him, and then you proceeded to do the wrong thing. If you kept a field blended video at 29.97fps and just deinterlaced it (which is what you're doing by using Telecide alone when field matching isn't even possible), then about all you've done is create a blurry, blended, mess.

Do you need any help in using an unblender? For example, to use RePAL, load both the LeakKernelDeint and RePAL filters, and go:

LeakKernelBob(Order=1)#if TFF
RePAL()

[Dashiell]

I find that strange, though. vybez gave you the answer, you seemed to understand what he was saying and thanked him, and then you proceeded to do the wrong thing. If you kept a field blended video at 29.97fps and just deinterlaced it (which is what you're doing by using Telecide alone when field matching isn't even possible), then about all you've done is create a blurry, blended, mess.

Do you need any help in using an unblender? For example, to use RePAL, load both the LeakKernelDeint and RePAL filters, and go:

LeakKernelBob(Order=1)#if TFF
RePAL()


I see... perhaps my fault was in the explaining.

When I replied to good sir Vybez, I had already done the 29.97 encode. It wasn't as if I read what he wrote and then went off and did something else, I simply had done it already. When he replied I realized that there was much more to it then I had thought!

When I had started this thread I was simply confused as to why content that was most definitely shot on film not being flagged as such. Several attempts were made to force IVTC, with that jerky visual result. I had decided to give up on IVTC and simply use Telecide to deinterlace. I felt the result looked pretty good.

Then Vybez replied with his info, and it was actually the info I was looking for all along (the reason the films weren't seen for what they were by IVTC)! I have been looking into the plugins he mentioned but have not had the chance to attempt another re-encode since.

Which brings me to the next point (long post). I would like to make another attempt using something like RePAL if it would improve the quality even further! So I will ask this of all present:

1) Will the RePAL plugin work within StatxRip? I am aware of having to write the AviSynth scripts, but I have seen some incompatible plugins crash the app. This question would probably answer itself except I have not been able to get in depth with RePAL as of yet...

2) The source of these films for my DivX conversion are the R3 Celestial DvDs and not some bootleg... (I own all of the converted DvDs in question).


Thanks.

[setarip_old]

Regarding MPEGMediator:I did start to, but unless I'm missing something there is no way to add AviSynth script parameters.There should be no need to do so.I was just wondering if it processed the videostream to your liking?Please answer this question...

[Dashiell]

Regarding MPEGMediator:There should be no need to do so.Please answer this question...

It seemed that with this app, the colors were really desaturated in the final output and the "jumpyness" issue was still present. I can't necessarily say it was the apps fault, as the source material isn't exactly known for its perfect mastering.

It seemed simple to use, however, and with the exception of having to mux the audio back in I really liked the interface's simplicity.

[setarip_old]

the "jumpyness" issue was still present.Sorry to hear that. Did you have "Deinterlace" set to
"Auto" and "Keep Film" checked?having to mux the audio backThere is no demuxing or muxing involved/needed when using MPEGMediator...

[Dashiell]

Sorry to hear that. Did you have "Deinterlace" set to
"Auto" and "Keep Film" checked?There is no demuxing or muxing involved/needed when using MPEGMediator...

Yes... I did keep those settings checked and auto. Perhaps mux was the wrong word?? I ended up with one video stream that had no audio... I would have needed to replace the audio to make one file. Did I miss a setting?

[setarip_old]

Did I miss a setting?What did you select from the "Output" dropdown menu for audio format? - And what audiostream was (by the program) selected from the "Audio" dropdown menu?

[Dashiell]

What did you select from the "Output" dropdown menu for audio format? - And what audiostream was (by the program) selected from the "Audio" dropdown menu?

As I recall, it was ac3 in, mp3 out. I'm at work at the moment and cannot look at it exactly, but I remember selecting mp3 output. OH! I feel I must add that I believe I was using MPEG Mediator "Special Edition"

[setarip_old]

I believe I was using MPEG Mediator "Special Edition"I've usually avoided the "Special Edition" - because all it does that's "special" is to create a complicated "job control" input sequence requirement, even if you're only processing one DVD.

I've usually used v.1.5...

[Dashiell]

I've usually avoided the "Special Edition" - because all it does that's "special" is to create a complicated "job control" input sequence requirement, even if you're only processing one DVD.

I've usually used v.1.5...

Alrighty... I've removed that version and am now trying 1.5. The first hurdle seems to be getting it to recognize DivX as an output format :p

[setarip_old]

The first hurdle seems to be getting it to recognize DivX as an output formatThat should just require having a DivX codec installed on your system - and, since it was recognized by the "Special Edition", there's no reason for it not to be recognized by v.1.5...

[Dashiell]

Ok Guys, I'm going to try both.

@Vybez & Manono:
I have attempted a re-encode of one of these films. As expected, DGIndex saw these films as interlaced NTSC Video, Top Field First, 29.97 frames per second.

I used statxrip with these plugins:

LeakKernelBob(Order=1)
RePAL()

Plus a few other plugins, naturally, in their proper order. That encode is nearly done and I will report on the result tomorrow.

@setarip
I have found the DivX plugin control panel within Mediator. I will also attempt an encode of the same film with this tomorrow.


Thanks everyone for your help!

[Dashiell]

@setarip

One other "side" question... since these SB films are in their native language, I usually like to add subtitles to the resulting file. I use SubRip and modify the subs and then burn them into the picture of the resulting avi.

Is there any form of sub support within MPEGMediator?

[setarip_old]

Is there any form of sub support within MPEGMediator?Unfortunately, no...

[jshumate]

Dashiell - This might be of interest to you. If you are working with the IVL Shaw Brothers reissues that have come out in the past few years on DVD, you should be aware that ALL (yes EVERY SINGLE ONE WITH NO EXCEPTIONS) Shaw Brothers remastered DVDs are first converted by IVL to PAL and then converted to NTSC for NTSC markets :-(
This is why they don't have 3:2 pulldown.

The quality is fantastic, but there are a lot of legitimate complaints about what IVL did. Why did they think that converting to PAL first was a great idea? Why not just have properly encoded NTSC masters and then convert that to PAL as necessary? Why did they not give original mono soundtracks as an option on so many DVDs and feel the need to re-do the foley (sometimes horribly) to create fakey 5:1 AC3 soundtracks when the fans want the original mono soundtracks? I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if every single DVD has PAL speedup on the soundtrack, but I've never read any definitive answer on whether or not that happened. You should also be aware that IVL hasn't issued any DVD-9 Shaw Brothers DVDs in some time and all releases are now on DVD-5 and have been since at least last year. Finally, many titles are now completely out of print and although some resellers still advertise them as being "backordered", there is no word that any of them will actually be repressed. Some forums are advising people to buy the earlier, less popular titles now while they still can and there are quite a few titles that are now only available on VCD until those get sold out like the DVD versions were.

[Dashiell]

Dashiell - This might be of interest to you. If you are working with the IVL Shaw Brothers reissues that have come out in the past few years on DVD, you should be aware that ALL (yes EVERY SINGLE ONE WITH NO EXCEPTIONS) Shaw Brothers remastered DVDs are first converted by IVL to PAL and then converted to NTSC for NTSC markets :-(
This is why they don't have 3:2 pulldown.

The quality is fantastic, but there are a lot of legitimate complaints about what IVL did. Why did they think that converting to PAL first was a great idea? Why not just have properly encoded NTSC masters and then convert that to PAL as necessary? Why did they not give original mono soundtracks as an option on so many DVDs and feel the need to re-do the foley (sometimes horribly) to create fakey 5:1 AC3 soundtracks when the fans want the original mono soundtracks? I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if every single DVD has PAL speedup on the soundtrack, but I've never read any definitive answer on whether or not that happened. You should also be aware that IVL hasn't issued any DVD-9 Shaw Brothers DVDs in some time and all releases are now on DVD-5 and have been since at least last year. Finally, many titles are now completely out of print and although some resellers still advertise them as being "backordered", there is no word that any of them will actually be repressed. Some forums are advising people to buy the earlier, less popular titles now while they still can and there are quite a few titles that are now only available on VCD until those get sold out like the DVD versions were.

WOW! Thank you for the info! Yes, I am working with those Celestial R3 releases! I have bought many of their titles in the last few years (MANY), I guess you could call me a collector! The DVDTalk forums taught me much, but I'm learning something new every day! Part of the reason I want to convert them to Divx is to place 3 or 4 films on one DVDR and store the originals away for safe keeping.

I have noticed that the Celestial discs are sometimes DVD-5 and sometimes DVD-9 with no apparent rhyme or reason to it... I simply thought there was a lack of available "extras" to put on the disc that lead to decisions like this. I really do love these films.

So I guess you are confirming what Vybez said. Excellent. I will use the RePAL approach when converting these titles. (I will check on the encode from last night when I get home.)

Here's a tricky question!

I've noticed the same issue occur with the R1 NTSC "Fortune Star" remasters... "The Prodigal Son" in particular. They do not appear as having any "lockable" 3:2 pulldown pattern. They too only appear as 29.97 video. Does this mean these titles were processed the same way (as PS was DEFINITELY shot on film), or could it be another issue?

Oh and one other idea, I believe this is one for Manono:

If a resulting encode from this process using the script specified;

LeakKernelBob(Order=1)
RePAL()

results in a final output that "flickers," should I use the threshold parameter to alleviate this? I've been told that this has a tendency to occur and that by raising the threshold value from LeakKernelBob's default of 10 to, say, 12 or so could clear it up. Is this so? (At least in theory?)

:thanks:

[manono]

They too only appear as 29.97 video. Does this mean these titles were processed the same way (as PS was DEFINITELY shot on film), or could it be another issue?

I haven't seen any of them, but to tell what they are and how to treat them, make a D2V using Field Operation->Honor Pulldown Flags (if the preview doesn't show it to be Progressive Film). Make an .avs from that D2V and don't apply any filtering at all - no IVTC, RePAL, or anything else. Open the interlaced 29.97fps script in VDub(Mod) and scroll to a place with movement. Start advancing a frame at a time. If, in every 5 frames, you see 3 good progressive frames and 2 interlaced frames, it's been hard telecined and can be fixed using an IVTC to bring it back to its original 23.976fps.

If you see something else, it's most likely a 6 frame pattern, the indication of a crummy PAL2NTSC conversion. You may see 3 or 4 or 5 or sometimes (maybe for only part of the movie) even all 6 frames being interlaced. But the important thing is it has a 6 frame pattern. You can further examine it with the use of a "Smart Bobber" such as LeakKernelBob. Then when opening the 59.94fps .avs and scrolling to a place with movement and advancing a frame at a time, you should notice up to half - usually around 40% - of the frames beiing blended/ghosted/having double images. In those cases an unblender, such as RePAL, Restore24, CDeblend, or MRestore can unblend it back to progressive 24.975fps. I prefer RePAL when it's possible to use it.

...results in a final output that "flickers," should I use the threshold parameter to alleviate this?

You can try that, but you have to understand that many of the frames will be created by using the bobbed field, with the loss of resolution it entails. So, you're going to get that flickering or aliasing when you have thin lines, such as those found in scenes with power lines, brick and other kinds of walls with mortered joints, steps, and especially venetian blinds. You can use a different smart bobber. Yadif is (maybe) better. Or try TDeint(Mode=1), which I don't think any better. And the real good smart bobbers (that can actually help) can be ridiculously slow. You (and I) just have to put up with that flicker, with the understanding that it's still way better than encoding as deinterlaced 29.97fps. Here's a deinterlacer comparison that is pretty discouraging as far as that flickering goes. All those zig-zaggy lines will show up in the AVI as heavy flickering:

http://heptium.sh.cvut.cz/~integra/deint/

So, if time is no object, you'll get better results using the TDeint + EEDI2 combination, or SecureDeint, or MVbob, or whatever the newest one is (I forget at the moment). Not worth it to me, though.

[Dashiell]

They too only appear as 29.97 video. Does this mean these titles were processed the same way (as PS was DEFINITELY shot on film), or could it be another issue?

I haven't seen any of them, but to tell what they are and how to treat them, make a D2V using Field Operation->Honor Pulldown Flags (if the preview doesn't show it to be Progressive Film). Make an .avs from that D2V and don't apply any filtering at all - no IVTC, RePAL, or anything else. Open the interlaced 29.97fps script in VDub(Mod) and scroll to a place with movement. Start advancing a frame at a time. If, in every 5 frames, you see 3 good progressive frames and 2 interlaced frames, it's been hard telecined and can be fixed using an IVTC to bring it back to its original 23.976fps.

Alrighty... I have just done this and the visual result was as you described it would be for a hard telecined source. So after that (to double check) I decided to set Telecide to "guide=1,show=true" and check it again.

Telecide reported "in pattern" the whole time! It showed a good lock on a consistent 3:2 pulldown source (mismatch 0.00%). The only time the lock "fluttered" was during a scene change and it only lasted a couple frames. It's weird why this didn't happen the first time... perhaps my error or telecide was set to a different guide pattern...


Later tonight I will attempt an encode of one of the celestial sources using the Bob/Repal method.

I'm not saying I will use telecide for the encode (I understand the benefits of the bob/repal method), but in theory shouldn't telecide report an "in pattern" result for these sources if set to guide=3?

:thanks: again, everyone!

[manono]

Are we talking about different DVDs here? The only thing I had to go on when suggesting the use of RePAL was jshumate's statement that the Shaw Brothers DVDs were all PAL2NTSC. I'm assuming the hard telecined stuff is the Fortune Star DVD(s).

but in theory shouldn't telecide report an "in pattern" result for these sources if set to guide=3?

No. Fieldblended stuff can't be field matched. Telecide is a field matcher.

[Dashiell]

Are we talking about different DVDs here? The only thing I had to go on when suggestion the use of RePAL was jshumate's statement that the Shaw Brothers DVDs were all PAL2NTSC. I'm assuming the hard telecined stuff is the Fortune Star DVD(s).

but in theory shouldn't telecide report an "in pattern" result for these sources if set to guide=3?

No. Fieldblended stuff can't be field matched. Telecide is a field matcher.

Oh, sorry.. yes we are. Two different brands/regions altogether. Yes, you are correct. The hard telecined one is the Fortune Star series R1, and just one disc in particular. It was the one that was ironed out on my last post based on your info.

The PAL2NTSC are the Celestial R3 Shaw Bros discs. I'm attempting the RePAL method as we speak.

[Dashiell]

Well guys, I want to thank you all!

The RePAL plugin was a boon to my efforts. The SB films go back to their 25fps and look wonderful with the DivX encodes. Each one comes in either just under or just over 1 Gig, so I can fit up to 4 per DVD. As the gentleman jshumate stated, many of these discs are no longer in print so I plan to store them and use the DivX discs on my Oppo 981.

This method also allows me to burn-in permanent English subs in the font and color of choice, so I like that as well.

The only thing I did differently was use DGBob as my smart bobber instead of Leak, as I found a hint of "jumpiness" in the leak encodes. This disappeared with DGBob.

Thank you to all (manono, jshumate, seatrip) who helped! :thanks: