HD-DVD to DVD9

[PurpleMan]

I have been contemplating the idea for quite some time, and even started a thread about 3 weeks ago.. but the lack of interest from people really amazed me.. I would have guessed that this would be a hot discussion.

The ability to reencode HD-DVD movies to h264 to fit a DVD9 while surely preserving awesome quality seems like a great and affordable solution to backup our HD-DVDs.

I figured we would take an original EVO file, demux it using EVODemux, frameserve it into MainConcept or a similar h264 encoder (Maybe Cinevision?). Then import the demuxed audios and reencoded h264 file into Scenarist ACA.. author a simple project for the purpose of producing a new .EVO and .MAP files, then just replace those with the ones on the original disc (and editting the XML if we removed any audio tracks).

However, while I did get MainConcept to produce an HD-DVD compliant .h264 file (I know that because Scenarist SCA accepted it for authoring), I could not get it to load into Scenarist ACA (Which we need for producing a .MAP file). When I try to import the .h264 file into Scenarist ACA I get an error message stating that the software that is used to decode the input file is not installed.

At first I thought this was directshow related, but I got all the right filters installed, and Media Player has no problem decoding the .264 file. I tried different encoders, even CineVision, which is based on MainConcept, but no luck. Just can´t get it to import.

If anyone cares to discuss the abovementioned process or offer a solution to my importing problem (Which if I solve, I will be able to write an HD-DVD backup guide, hopefully), it would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
-PurpleMan

[dvdboy]

To take a 30GB HD DVD and 'back it up' onto a 8.5GB DVD-9 is akin to archiving a DVD onto a VCD.

If you've got apply that much compression from something already compressed with a very good codec you are not going "preserve the awsome quality of the original." Maybe if you were producing a standalone H264 file which could make the most of long GOP encoding, but bear in mind that most current titles have taken about 2 weeks to encode usings Microsoft's very hardcore VC-1 encoding system.

Best of luck, but I personally think you're setting yourself an impossible target.

[Bigmango]

To take a 30GB HD DVD and 'back it up' onto a 8.5GB DVD-9 is akin to archiving a DVD onto a VCD.

If you've got apply that much compression from something already compressed with a very good codec you are not going "preserve the awsome quality of the original." Maybe if you were producing a standalone H264 file which could make the most of long GOP encoding, but bear in mind that most current titles have taken about 2 weeks to encode usings Microsoft's very hardcore VC-1 encoding system.

Best of luck, but I personally think you're setting yourself an impossible target.

You probably can't keep 1080p on a dvd9. But I have seen awesome x264 backups (mkv container) with DTS/AC3 in 720p on dvd9. And 720p is way better than plain DVD.

720p is good enough for me at the moment as I still don't have a 1920x1080 screen. So I'm good with x264 on dvd9 for the next 2 years.

As for VC1, I don't care much about it as its quality at lower bitrates just looks plain awful compared to x264 (I have tried every settings I could get out of the WME x64 encoder).

As for h.264, I have also tried to get the best out of mainconcept, but at very low bitrates x264 still looks better (encoders at max quality settings).

So, until BR prices drop in 2 years (at that time I will probably also get a 1080p screen) I will burn my backups on dvd9's in 720p, x264 with DTS/AC3 (maybe AAC if I can get good sound with more room for the video, but I think I prefer to send the sound out to my high end receiver)

So I am with the OP on this. I have not used scenarist, but I have seen that nero vision and ulead moviefactory 6 now author HDdvd9 with AVCHD sources.

But I have not tried it myself. If anyone has some more info on this I am all ears :)

Edit: I think I have read somewhere that x264 does not make compliant files yet, so it seems we are stuck with mainconcept for now ?

[Sagittaire]

To take a 30GB HD DVD and 'back it up' onto a 8.5GB DVD-9 is akin to archiving a DVD onto a VCD.

If you've got apply that much compression from something already compressed with a very good codec you are not going "preserve the awsome quality of the original." Maybe if you were producing a standalone H264 file which could make the most of long GOP encoding, but bear in mind that most current titles have taken about 2 weeks to encode usings Microsoft's very hardcore VC-1 encoding system.

Best of luck, but I personally think you're setting yourself an impossible target.

Well it's not correct ...

1) You can use H264 for HDDVD9 and it's possible to obtain very good quality in 6-8 Mbps interval. Actually HDDVD30 use VC1 in 12-18 Mbps interval. Make HDDVD30@HDDVD9 backup is more like make DVD9@DVD5 backup with Shrink (or other DVD backup) and certainely not like "archiving DVD on VCD"

2) You can use DD at 448 Kbps, or better, original DD+ at 640 Kbps. DD+ is a very better codec than DD and DD+ 640 Kbps done a very good audio quality.

In fact actually it's possible to make that for HDDVD9:
- +/- 120 min for principal 1080p video stream
- 2 or 3 audio stream 5.1 at 448-640 Kbps
- Little menu

Final quality for Video will be like QuickTime 1080p trailer
http://www.apple.com/trailers/

[dvdboy]

Ok, perhaps I was making some rather sweeping statements, but c'mon, let's be honest here:

1) DVD9@DVD5 is about a 50% reduction, compared with a 66% (ish) reduction with HDDVD30@DVD9. BD50@DVD9... TBH I was never satisfied with Shrinking DVD9s to DVD-Rs for anything more than QC work before Dual Layered discs became available.

2) Some encodes have a lot of 'fat' on them and you can savage the bitrate and still get a good picture. Others have squeezed almost all there is to squeeze out of the available bits.

3) It is possible to achieve good quality video at 6-8Mbps for 120 mins on a HDDVD9, but as has been stated before it's all down to the content.

4) Quicktime 1080p Trailers... Pirates 3 comes in at 177MB for 152s of video - 1.16MBps. 120 minutes would be 8352 MB, which is pretty much a DVD-9, I accept.

Let's look at the options the OP suggested.

Main Concept - good encoder, but you get your two passes and that's it.
Cinevision - segment-based re-encoding, but older, poorer MainConcept implementation (?), and more basic VC-1 implementation compared to PEP.

The OP has some misguided idea that H264 is currently some magic bullet solution which will take a file that some compressionist has spent some time working on, and by halving the bitrate, they will be able to "preserve awesome quality".

If it was possible to achieve such amazing results at such low bitrates, would the 'industry' be using the same or better tools to either get more out of their HDDVD30s or release titles on cheaper HDDVD9s, especially as they can run from the original source tape or DI rather than an already lossy video file.

Finally, I don't see how using a suite of software including MainConcept, Cinevision, Scenarist SCA and Scenarist ACA can be seen as a "great and affordable solution" for "backing up" a $30 disc - the OP might have been able to buy (...) these tools for the job, but the rest of us mere mortals who don't want to risk loosing our jobs on such activities might not have such deep pockets.

[Bigmango]

Ok, perhaps I was making some rather sweeping statements, but c'mon, let's be honest here:

1) DVD9@DVD5 is about a 50% reduction, compared with a 66% (ish) reduction with HDDVD30@DVD9. BD50@DVD9... TBH I was never satisfied with Shrinking DVD9s to DVD-Rs for anything more than QC work before Dual Layered discs became available.

2) Some encodes have a lot of 'fat' on them and you can savage the bitrate and still get a good picture. Others have squeezed almost all there is to squeeze out of the available bits.

3) It is possible to achieve good quality video at 6-8Mbps for 120 mins on a HDDVD9, but as has been stated before it's all down to the content.

4) Quicktime 1080p Trailers... Pirates 3 comes in at 177MB for 152s of video - 1.16MBps. 120 minutes would be 8352 MB, which is pretty much a DVD-9, I accept.

Let's look at the options the OP suggested.

Main Concept - good encoder, but you get your two passes and that's it.
Cinevision - segment-based re-encoding, but older, poorer MainConcept implementation (?), and more basic VC-1 implementation compared to PEP.

The OP has some misguided idea that H264 is currently some magic bullet solution which will take a file that some compressionist has spent some time working on, and by halving the bitrate, they will be able to "preserve awesome quality".

If it was possible to achieve such amazing results at such low bitrates, would the 'industry' be using the same or better tools to either get more out of their HDDVD30s or release titles on cheaper HDDVD9s, especially as they can run from the original source tape or DI rather than an already lossy video file.

Finally, I don't see how using a suite of software including MainConcept, Cinevision, Scenarist SCA and Scenarist ACA can be seen as a "great and affordable solution" for "backing up" a $30 disc - the OP might have been able to buy (...) these tools for the job, but the rest of us mere mortals who don't want to risk loosing our jobs on such activities might not have such deep pockets.

Of course when your recode and lower bitrates you lose quality, but as a whole, your arguments are again not valid.

Regarding 50% reduction, we already get very good quality when recoding a dvd9 to a dvd5 with good encoders like procoder 2 or cinemacraft (although Cinemacraft is not as good, Procoder is much better at low bitrates)

-> When I half the bitrate of a dvd9 movie it still looks great.

But as I said, if the movie is too long 720p is good enough for me.

As for the cost of software, nero vision (and I think ulead movie factory ?) can already author avc blue-ray, so hd-dvd is just around the corner. Nero has already announced that they will also add ac3 authoring support to the existing aac before this summer. How much does Nero cost ? 50 bucks ? And the other existing dvd authoring solutions are also following...

[Sagittaire]

DVD9@DVD5 is about a 50% reduction, compared with a 66% (ish) reduction with HDDVD30@DVD9.

Well actualy HDDVD use generaly PIP, TrueHD, multiple DD+ stream and other bonus. For principal video stream HDDVD30@HDDVD9 will be 50% reduction if you drop PIP, Lossless audio stream and other bonus. Moreover actually all the HDDVD use VC1 and H264 will be more efficient in "low bitrate" situation.


Main Concept - good encoder, but you get your two passes and that's it. Cinevision - segment-based re-encoding, but older, poorer MainConcept implementation (?), and more basic VC-1 implementation compared to PEP.

In fact Cinevision 1.2 and MC H264 encoder 2.1 use the same "old" Mainconcept SDK core: AVC/H.264 Video Encoder 2.1.6462.0 2006/09/19 for Cinevision 1.2 and AVC/H.264 Video Encoder 2.1.6639.0 2006/09/25 for MC H264 encoder 2.1. But cinevision 1.2 is by far a more professional compressionist solution (AQ, grain optimisation, segment-based re-encoding). Elecard Converter Studio 1.1.52 use AVC/H.264 Video Encoder 2.2.0.10477 2007/01/23.


Finally, I don't see how using a suite of software including MainConcept, Cinevision, Scenarist SCA and Scenarist ACA can be seen as a "great and affordable solution" for "backing up" a $30 disc - the OP might have been able to buy (...) these tools for the job, but the rest of us mere mortals who don't want to risk loosing our jobs on such activities might not have such deep pockets.

Buy is not an obligation. You can rent complete Sonic solution (Scenarist & Cinevision & Hardware). It's a good solution for make test. Anyway Sonic solution is a professional solution and nothing else. If you want a freeware solution then it will be necessary to wait x264 HDDVD/BD compliance (not far) and something like "HD ifoedit" for simple HDDVD/BD muxing.

[dvdboy]

@ Bigmango

As far as I am aware, all consumer / prosumer HD software uses MPEG-2 video for both BD and HD DVD. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and let the people over at the AVS Forums know ;)

@ Sagittaire

As always you make very good points, and this sort of thing is by no means a black and white situation.

Is it your opinion that you can take a 1080p encoded from an existing VC-1 encoded disc, and by halving the bitrate, produce an HD DVD compliant H264 file which would preserve the "awsome quality" of the original. If so, do you rate H264 over VC-1, and do you believe that in future we will see more HD DVDs being released using H264 as opposed to VC-1?

On the final point you've both quoted me on, I believe you are missing the point that I was trying to make, which was the Original Poster was talking about backing up HD DVDs with the software that he listed. I am not suggesting that he use this software was this purpose, he is.

- To buy said software, would not make it an affordable way to back-up your discs.

- To rent said software would certainly be an interesting conversation between him and sonic...

To be blunt, by listing the software that he does, using comments such as "affordable solution", when said software is by no means affordable to the masses, isn't the OP getting very close to Rule #6 of the forums???

Once x264 gets it's compatibility problems sorted, and once there is a way to author compatible HD DVDs using these encodes, then there is a viable solution. Until then you are either encoding to a poorer video format in the form of MPEG-2 spanning multiple discs, or you are using an oversized, overspecced and highly dubious hammer to crack a rather cheap egg.

[Bigmango]

@ Bigmango

As far as I am aware, all consumer / prosumer HD software uses MPEG-2 video for both BD and HD DVD. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and let the people over at the AVS Forums know ;)

As I said, nero vision (the nero package is about 50$ ?) now authors avc/aac (the blue ray plays perfectly on the ps3) and the nero rep on these forums posted a few days ago that it will support avc/ac3 before this summer. Others are following.

As for the higher end consumer solutions, Adobe is now accepting pre-orders for Premiere Cs3. It includes Encore Cs3. The package is fully h.264 compliant.

Edit: ulead moviefactory 6 plus (50$ ?) will not encode avc (only mpeg2 HD), but it authors it (keeping the avc HD without re-encoding) if you have an avc source.

[dvdboy]

As I said, nero vision (the nero package is about 50$ ?) now authors avc/aac (the blue ray plays perfectly on the ps3) and the nero rep on these forums posted a few days ago that it will support avc/ac3 before this summer. Others are following.

As far as I'm aware AAC isn't a supported codec of either format - I assume this is running as a data disc?

As for the higher end consumer solutions, Adobe is now accepting pre-orders for Premiere Cs3. It includes Encore Cs3. The package is fully h.264 compliant.

According to Adobe's website this is Blu-Ray only, not HD DVD.

Edit: ulead moviefactory 6 plus (50$ ?) will not encode avc (only mpeg2 HD), but it authors it (keeping the avc HD without re-encoding) if you have an avc source.

Haven't been able to find anymore info on this - have you got any links? As I said the HD DVD authoring thread over at AVS seems to be 'screaming' for a non-mpeg-2 option, but no-one has mentioned H264 support as of yet.

[Toti]

This is a good thread. Please lets try to stay in focus and not talk about how much a software is but rather how to achive the task at hand.

@PurpleMan, I have done such backups from DirecTV HD. Results are great for me which have a 720p TV. I have HD-DVD source but I still don't know the best way to start. I can demux the sources but since the file is bigger than 10GB then it is splitted. How can I mix them before encoding them to end up with one big file?

Is there a VC1 indexer that I don't know about?

[Sagittaire]

As I said, nero vision (the nero package is about 50$ ?) now authors avc/aac (the blue ray plays perfectly on the ps3) and the nero rep on these forums posted a few days ago that it will support avc/ac3 before this summer. Others are following.


Nero vision 4 make simple BD authoring with AVC and DD. You can authoring in 1080p resolution, multiple DD 5.1 audio stream and simple menu (main menu and chapter menu). It's really interessing because Nero AVC (by Ateme) is a very good professional AVC codec.

[PurpleMan]

@PurpleMan, I have done such backups from DirecTV HD. Results are great for me which have a 720p TV. I have HD-DVD source but I still don't know the best way to start. I can demux the sources but since the file is bigger than 10GB then it is splitted. How can I mix them before encoding them to end up with one big file?

Is there a VC1 indexer that I don't know about?

You can make an avisynth script that would frameserve the splitted files one after another as a single stream.

The OP has some misguided idea that H264 is currently some magic bullet solution which will take a file that some compressionist has spent some time working on, and by halving the bitrate, they will be able to "preserve awesome quality".

As for the discussion regarding the quality - I have personally encoded a 10 minutes clip of 1080p at an average bitrate of 5mbit per second at the best quality setting using MainConcept. The encode took about 12 hours on my Athlon 64 3000+, but the quality was EXCELLENT.

The problem still remains that until I figure out how to get Scenarist ACA to accept the .264 input file, I can´t reauthor and confirm that the concept works for backing up an HD-DVD.
I just can´t figure out why Scenarist SCA accepts the file without a problem but ACA wouldn´t.

Regards,
-PurpleMan

[DewAsmara]

As for the discussion regarding the quality - I have personally encoded a 10 minutes clip of 1080p at an average bitrate of 5mbit per second at the best quality setting using MainConcept. The encode took about 12 hours on my Athlon 64 3000+, but the quality was EXCELLENT.

Yeah,
Converting video like DVD even HDDVD into H264 really a challanging process. I was not pation enough waiting finish re-encode HD-DVD into H264 1080p, it tooks almost a day. So I back using old MPEG4. But don't get wrong, H264 really amazing in every aspect way. Only making that kind video really need powerhouse computer.

[mk2k]

I'm trying to accomplish this same task. I frameserve movie with avisynth to mainconcept h264. in mainconcept used sagittaire settings like in his earlier post (the one with the hddvd .iso sample)
but i am little stuck with FPS settings. mainconcept the frameserved movie says its 29,96. but i know for sure it needs to be 24/25fps. dont know what to do. :script:

[Toti]

MainConcept has bugs with anything that has pulldown. If you want to encode 720p and leave it at 59.976 fps then it works but if you want 720p @ 23.976 with pulldown to 59.97 then it won't work. I discontinued MainConcept use and am using Sonic's CineVision 1.2 works great but not as fast.

Has anyone tried to burn a Dual Layer DVD with HD-DVD files and still be recognized by hardware players?

[drelin]

Has anyone tried to burn a Dual Layer DVD with HD-DVD files and still be recognized by hardware players?

Yes, I made 4 titles movies on DVD Dual Layer.

H264 encoding in 1080p in CBR at 8500Kbps.
2 Audio tracks an done Subtitles track.
Authored with Sceanrist SCA.
Without menu (only movie and chapters)

The 4 DVD works fine on Xbox 360 and toshiba HD-XE1.

N.B:
I've tried to make project with menus in SCA but, the buttons aren't correctly displyaed by the players.
With Toshiba player, I can select the audio track and the subtitles but is not avialable with Xbobx 360.

[Toti]

@drelin, are you using DVD+DL or DVD-DL. Also, can you please test it on Toshiba A2? I can't get them to work.

After you build your project, how do you burn them? Nero, Roxio? if so, what parameter do you use?

Thanks in advance.

[drelin]

@Toti
I'am use DVD Dl +R and -R, the both medias work fine.

I'd tested the 6 projects (2 more than last time) on Toshiba HD XE1 (european version of A2) and the result is very good (without frames dropped, Mosaic artefact).

On Xbox 360 the result is the same of the Todhiba.
And the last update of Microsoft, the Xbox can now change the audio tracks and display the Subtitles tracks.

For burning, the best way is:
Use a burning software like IMGBRUN (free) or One's (Zulu Prassitech) and burn the ISO file generated by Scenarist SCA.
The ISO file is mastered on UDF 2.5 (official format of BLU-RAY dand HD-DVD).

You can use another software for burn the ISO software but I 'd tested only the 2 Softs.

For DVD DL -R, check the udpate firmware of the writer and also the update of software.

[frippy]

2drelin
Please!!!, try to create full menu (like SD DVD disks), create image and write to DVD disk. This disk playable on Toshiba?
Or, if you need help, please write me to PM, i can create menu and you can try to create playable disk.

[drelin]

2drelin
Please!!!, try to create full menu (like SD DVD disks), create image and write to DVD disk. This disk playable on Toshiba?
Or, if you need help, please write me to PM, i can create menu and you can try to create playable disk.

I've tried yet a authored disk with menus (in SCA), but the players (Xbox 360 and toshiba) can't display the menus correctly.
I've checked with friend professionnal author.

I've not maked another test between the new update of Xbox 360 and Tohshiba XE1 (I'm waiting a Disc update form Toshiba).

[dvdboy]

According to Amir @ MS the latest update for the 360 fixes a lot of bugs with SCA HD DVDs.

By all accounts, because everyone had been authoring ACA / HDi discs, it is only now they are spotting issues with Standard Content (Slaps Head)