CCE Basic PAL Settings, comparison

[jan.t]

CCE Basic PAL Settings, comparison

Now the time has finally come to put my minidv films on dvd. I think the batched minidv tapes were interlaced material (Nvdx 110 Panasonic camcorder). For this reason I burnt two DVD:s for a comparison.

DVD1: Progressive Settings

Frame # 00000000
No Audio (separate conversion)
Mpeg2
2-pass VBR
Elementary Stream
VBR min 0
Avg 6000
VBR Max 9400
Aspect Ratio 4:3
Flat part priority 27

Advanced Settings:
M=3
N/M=4
SEQ header every 1 GOP:s
Add sequence end code checked
Progressive source checked
Output top field first stream checked
Offset line 0
Intra DC Precision 10
Block scan order Zigzag
Luminance 16-235


DVD2: Interlaced Settings

Frame # 00000000
No Audio (separate conversion)
Mpeg2
2-pass VBR
Elementary Stream
VBR min 0
Avg 6000
VBR Max 9400
Aspect Ratio 4:3
Flat part priority 27

Advanced Settings:
M=3
N/M=4
SEQ header every 1 GOP:s
Add sequence end code checked
Progressive source not checked
Output top field first stream checked
Offset line 0
Intra DC Precision 10
Block scan order Alternate
Luminance 16-235


Everything else in CCE Basic I left at Default (and unchecked).


I burnt my shortfilm to DVD in these two settings and compared them. There was very little if any difference. Both had an obvious “strobe feeling” to the movements (something I didnt like and becomes obvious for almost every movement in the shortfilm which contains much dialog, gestures and is shot with handheld camera), I was very surprised to find that my interlaced settings didnt do better. (My setup is LCD TV with standalone Progressive scan DVD player).

1 I expected at the least some kind of difference between these burns so I wonder now if any of the settings above are wrong, especially with the interlaced one, or if I should consider some other quality setting for a new comparison, in direction minimize “strobe”.

2 I have also made two documentary films which contain a lot of still pictures of objects. Some of these objects, photographs, dark rooms, etc, are not very well lit up, and the blockage in the dark areas is evident. If anyone can give me a hint or two on a different quality setting to somehow get away from this problem I will try it immediately..

3 Before editing a long time ago I imported all dvfootage with color level RGB setting into my editing program Avid Xpress DV where I used RGB with luminance levels 16-235 (should I now change to 0-255?), and people say that RGB is for computer and color level 601 is better for TV. Can I make any adjustment of my films now (just want to compare) to make it look more like 601?

Final output is dual layer dvd. I know these might be difficult questions and I am happy for any hints or comments!


Best Wishes

Jan T

[Mtz]

In DVD1: Progressive Settings did you checked also "Deinterlace"? Because you wrote this: "Progressive source checked ".

Did you used some avisynth script loaded in CCE? If you used the DV avi, I think correct is "Offset line 1"

You can also use: Luminance 16-235
Make some tests again.

What codec/decoder do you have vor DV? (MainConcept, Celocida, etc).

enjoy,
Mtz

[Jeffster]

Progressive source not checked
Output top field first stream checked
Offset line 0
...

1 I expected at the least some kind of difference between these burns so I wonder now if any of the settings above are wrong, especially with the interlaced one, or if I should consider some other quality setting for a new comparison, in direction minimize “strobe”.

DV video is normally Bottom Field First... for your Interlaced settings, try it with "Output top field first" UN-checked and see if it makes a difference, or alternatively if you want the final output to be TFF then you can leave that setting checked but change the "Offset line" to 1 and CCE will change the field order for you, as Mtz suggested.

[Mtz]

PAL DV
After some testing:
- changing the Luminance have no effect. I made a binary compare and the results are the same in both settings.
- if you are using the last version of CCE, uncheck "Output top field first" and let the "Offset line" to 0. Your resulted mpv file will be bottom field first and I think is not a problem for any player.

Here are my settings and I had very good results (only the checking things from CCE):
- MPEG2 for DVD
- AR (4:3 or 16:9 depending how you recored the tape)
- Advanced > "Add sequence end encode" > Offset Line = 0
- Picture Quality > Block Scan Order > Alternate.

Deinterlacing produced ugly video. I'll not recommend to use it.

enjoy,
Mtz

[jan.t]

Hello!


Still sick over here but I have been able to do some more testing.. I have made some changes to the interlaced setting above. I use avid xpress to export quicktime reference into CCE Basic. I am not sure which codec that is.

DVD3: Interlaced, Lower Field First, Offline 0, Luminance Level 16-235. No strobe. A LOT OF blockage in dark areas.

DVD4: Interlaced, Top Field First, Offline 1, Luminance Level 0-255. No strobe, blockage almost disappeared but most dark details have become black. The movie is darker overall.

DVD5: Interlaced, Top Field First, Offline 1, Luminance Level 16-235. No strobe. A LOT OF blockage in dark areas.

DVD6: Interlaced, Lower Field First, Offline 0, Luminance Level 16-235 and Flat part priority 40. Flat priority change gave no difference at all compared to DVD3 or DVD5.

I changed Flat part priority in DVD6 to 70 as well but it didnt work either. "Quantization Characteristic cant be used if you use filters". How can I see if my quicktime reference movie uses filters and how do i disable them?**

I am surprised that you didnt notice a difference in luminance when changing the luminance only, mtz. My whole film got somewhat (clearly visibly) darker, and especially so in not well lit upp darker areas of the film.

With these 6 different outputs in mind I would settle for DVD3, (DVD5 and DVD6 gives me identical outputs). Any other suggestions of how to get rid of the blockage in darker not well lit up clips of the movie?**



Best Wishes

Jan T

[Mtz]

My PAL DV settinns for CCE SP2 are here. (http://www.sendspace.com/file/1t91ly)

enjoy,
Mtz

[jan.t]

Thank you. I use CCE Basic so some of the settings are not the same..
I really would like to know though why my Quantization characteristics will not work. Changing Flat Part Priority just will not make any difference. I have read here that "Quantization characteristic will not work if you use filters". Is this true and if so, how can I apply it to my quicktime reference movie?

[Jeffster]

I have read here that "Quantization characteristic will not work if you use filters". Is this true and if so, how can I apply it to my quicktime reference movie?

That's correct, here is a quote from the CCE manual (it's a good read):

"If you apply Quality setting, Quantization characteristics
is automatically determined and you cannot change
this value."

You might find you get better results by disabling the Quality setting in CCE and frameserving with Avisynth and using it's filters instead, that way you can also use a de-blocking filter which it sounds like you need for the clip you mentioned above. There is a sub-forum especially devoted to Avisynth if you need help with it.

[jan.t]

Thank you, but in all my burns I have not applied any Quality Setting (Natural picture, Computer Graphics, Animation, level Simple to Complex), since it is not recommended in the Doom step by step guide. Can it be that my VBR choice 0-9400 "eliminates" a Flat Part Priority Setting of 70?

I will continue to elaborate with more burns changing Flat Part Priority. Small pieces of blockage can be seen in the original footage so my hopes are not so big. I dont think I can get my blockage that small but hopefully not as evident as now. If there is no other solution I will darken the areas in my editing program and export again.

I dont use Avisynth now, I just do a quicktime reference export from Avid to CCE Basic. Should I still try Avisynth?

Best Wishes

[kolak]

Use Canopus ProCoder 2

[jan.t]

I have traced the blockage in dark area problem to my quicktime reference file. When I export as quicktime movie this blockage disappears, but unfortunately I am not able to export more than 9 min at a time. Since I have made films that are longer than that I need a program that can fuse the 9 min video quicktime movie segments together (without later losing sync).
Can anyone recommend such a program?

[jan.t]

Thank you.