When to Use CCE or Procoder

[AGKnotUser]

I've read in other threads that Procoder does a better job at low bit rates than CCE. At what reduction rate should I choose Procoder over CCE? Right now if the reduction rate is 60% or lower I run with Procoder.

[sillKotscha]

a wise choice... I even switch to procoder with anything below 70%...

but that's your choice...

if the reduction level is somewhat around 85%+ I even stick with DVDshrink sometimes... depends on my mood and waning or waxing moon :D

[techreactor]

For me,

Above 80% = DVD shrink
Below 80% = HCenc
Near 60% = AutoQmatenc with QmatOP enabled
Near 50% = Procoder with Mastering Quality
Below that = Split DVD into 2 DVD's

but it your preference totally, in what to use.

[AGKnotUser]

Thanks Guys!

[jdobbs]

Be careful. Using percentages can be dangerous. Which is bigger, 60% of 7Mbs or 90% of 4.5Mbs? The percentage of the second case looks better -- but actually yields a lower bitrate.

If you are reducing a long movie that was marginally encoded (e.g. at a low bitrate) on the original -- you may want to use an encoder because even a slight reduction could bring you below the threshold. On the other hand, you may do a 50% reduction on another source that was encoding at a lot more bitrate than was needed on the original -- and find that it looks great even when transcoded..

My humble opinion: Why take the chance? Encoding always results in the highest level possible -- so why not just do it right the first time and just skip all the flawed deduction?

[sillKotscha]

so why not just do it right the first time and just skip all the flawed deduction?

my way of deciding is completely unorthodox but for my eyes was always very satisfying...

after removing unwanted elements with PGCEdit I load the arranged DVD into CloneDVD and choose as a target DVD-5...

if CloneDVD shows me a reduction level of e.g. 70% and below I'd set up Procoder in DVD-RB or else I'd use CCE...

that's the way I decide on which encoder I use with One-Click Backup mode in DVD-RB...

[manolito]

When trying to predict the level of quality you are going to get from an encode, reduction level and average bitrate are only one side of the coin. The other (and probably more important) side is the compressability of the source.

Just take two extremes:
Your first source is a movie of 2 hours which consists of just one still frame. The other source is a movie of the same length but with constantly changing foreground and background, brightness and colors also changing all the time. For the first source you will get extremely high quality at a bitrate below 1000 kbps, for the second source even an average bitrate above 8000 kbps will result in an encode with some blockiness.

CCE's OPV mode can give you a pretty good idea how compressable your source is. Even if you intend to use multipass VBR for the actual encode, running the analysis encodes in OPV mode first can often help you to determine the final quality. If the analysis ends up with a Q factor above 40, you should probably remove some extras / use a different matrix / apply some denoising or smoothing filters before you start your real conversion.

Cheers
manolito

[blutach]

Procoder 2 all the time here - except when experimenting with Hank's wonderful work (which really is quite fantastic). And manolito's (rather extreme) example is quite pertinent, too. Quant and BR togehter must be considered.

Regards

[AGKnotUser]

Wow. This is going to take a while. Much more information than I ever expected. Let me take this piece by piece.

Jdobbs, you're saying use CCE all the time because it's an encoder and ProCoder is a transcoder.

Manolito, nevermind the percentages, measure the compressability of the source and get the Q as low as possible (or below 40, if possible).

SillKotscha, use CloneDVD to get an idea as to how well the source will look when compressed.

Blutach, use Procoder or HCEnc to get best results.

Have I got it right?

[jdobbs]

Jdobbs, you're saying use CCE all the time because it's an encoder and ProCoder is a transcoder. No, no, no... CCE, ProCoder, QuEnc, and HC are all encoders. Transcoders are those other methods -- like DVD Shrink, DVD2One, Nero Recode, etc....

[AGKnotUser]

No, no, no... CCE, ProCoder, QuEnc, and HC are all encoders. Transcoders are those other methods -- like DVD Shrink, DVD2One, Nero Recode, etc....

OK. So you're saying not to go by the percentages of reduction. Is it better to go by the High/Low/Typical bitrates reported to choose which encoder to use?

[jdobbs]

I'd recommend just choosing a high-quality encoder -- and then let DVD-RB complete it's work. There are many factors involved:

- Original Bitrate
- Complexity of the source
- New bitrate
- Compression level to be applied
- Length (in frames) of the source
- Matrix used

Trying to make a decision without considering all of them is pointless -- and trying to consider all of them manually is tedious. Since it's DVD-RB and the encoder's job to do most of that -- just let them do their job.

[dirio49]

which One should we pay more attention?

Avg Bitrate, min Bitrate or high Bitrate?

thanks.

[jdobbs]

Average bitrate.

[b@nned]

is there a difference between the procoder that comes with RB and procoder 2 from the website?

[linx05]

Procoder does not come with DVD Rebuilder. You might be mistaken by EclPro which allows you to interface with the files Procoder creates.

[wmansir]

If you want to try ProCoder you can get an EclPro/DVD-RB compatible version with the trial of Edios3 from the Canopus website. For some reason they only have an old, incompatible trial version of ProCoder by itself. From what I recall it's fully functional with a 30 day limit.

Oh and just FYI I usually use ProCoder for anything but the most "easy" encodes. For example if it's a clean source with over 4000kbps then I switch to HC.

[sillKotscha]

Oh and just FYI I usually use ProCoder for anything

but do you play around with the settings or do you just leave ProCoder at Mastering Quality for every encode??

[wmansir]

I just leave it at master quality. In fact I've never even tried another setting. I was thinking of looking into it for my recent encoder speed tests, since changing HC from Best to Normal made it much faster I was wondering what the speed/quality impact was for ProCoder.

The reason I don't use ProCoder on clean, high bitrate encodes is because it tends to slightly soften the image. It's easy to spot in AB frame comparisons but I doubt it would be even detectable on a standard def TV. I don't know if it's an automatic video filter or perhaps the matrix used. It could even be disabled or reduced at high bitrates, I haven't tested that out.

[sillKotscha]

The reason I don't use ProCoder on clean, high bitrate encodes is because it tends to slightly soften the image.

this is my main reason to choose ProCoder for anything below 70% Size Reduction... concerning low-level encodes I prefer a soft image over a Macro-blocky look :)

[b@nned]

what do you use for stuff over 70%

EDIT: also, how to you calculate bitrate?

[sillKotscha]

see the first 2 posts and read the whole thread, please...

and bitrate is calculated via DVD-RB...

as a beginner you shouldn't bother about any tweaks, pretended tips or any "I have heard" statements - just let DVD-RB do the job for you because that's the main reason why jdobbs spent so much time writing this masterpiece of software... to let a program do the work for you ;)

my statement about percentage is just my own rule of thumb for my encodings - it does only represent my personal contentedness with that rule of thumb and does not include any 'official you have to' ...

[AGKnotUser]

EDIT: also, how to you calculate bitrate?

VideoCalc can also be used, get it here: http://videocalc.abelhadigital.com/. Get the info for the calculation by openning the DVD in DVDShrink to get the length of file and size of audio track.