The factory "Eating Raoul" aspect ratio is wrong. Fix?

[Just_a_boy]

This post is about the commercial DVD release of the great black comedy "Eating Raoul". I own this movie and if it played right I would not even be posting because backing it up is no problem. The problem is that it has been released and distributed with the wrong aspect ratio and I'd like to fix it. If you're interested in helping me get to the bottom of this, please see this image to begin:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/carsonsitty/Eating_Raoul_aspect.jpg

I sent the movie to a friend to check out on his HDTV and he said it looked fine, but he had never seen the movie before and I suspect it didn't look fine. I've never seen it on HD, but I've seen it a hundred times over the years on normal TV, and as it is, it's compressed vertically, as in the first frame of the sample.

As I understand it, the DVD standard is 720x480 pixels. If the image is intended to be full screen, all 720x480 pixels are filled with the image, and it is stretched vertically to 720x540 during playback. If the image is intended to be 1.85 widescreen, all 720x480 pixels are filled with a picture that is slightly stretched vertically, then compressed down to about 720x405 during playback, with the black bars being added by the DVD player. If the image is intended to be 2.35 widescreen, the 720x480 pixels actually include black bars so that when it is compressed to 720x405, same as 1.85, it will still look right. Yet a little more black at the top and bottom is still added by the DVD player. Both of these last ones are what is meant by anamorphic. But note that all three of them are distorted one way or the other by the player during playback; none are displayed at the 720x480 pixels that are actually burned on the disk.

Anyone wanting to help probably already knows whether all of that is reasonably close to the truth, but I just wanted to tell you how I understand it.

Now with Eating Raoul, the picture fills the entire 720x480 frame. There are no black bands built into the mpeg. The trouble is, it does not need to be distorted taller or shorter. It's perfect at 720x480. When I play it, though, it tells the player it's anamorphic 1.85 so it gets smashed down, and looks like the first of the three frames in the above sample. Everyone is short and fat. If I change the flag byte in the mpeg to tell the player it's full screen, it then gets stretched vertically to look like the middle sample. Everyone is too tall and thin. But if I could get it to play back like the third frame, unchanged, it would be perfect. The first two ways, I find it unwatchable given my intimate familiarity with the film.

The only mpeg editing software I own is TMPGenc, and it allows me to change the aspect ratio by means of a "1:1" setting (apparently just a flag byte; the mpeg does not get re-encoded), but all of my DVD players ignore it and display the image stretched to full screen as in the middle sample.

What I need is to be able to display it at 720x480, unchanged. If this is not possible, I need *thin* black bars added to the top and bottom so that when it is displayed as full screen, it looks like the third frame in the sample. This is a last resort, though, because it would require re-encoding the mpeg. Still, if it's the only way, I'd do it, because this is a spectacular black comedy that I intend to enjoy fifty more times in the future.

I've done the math and calculated that if this last resort were taken, the 720x480 pixels would need to be compressed to 720x426 and then black bars of 27 pixels vertically each added to the top and bottom:

027 - Black top
426 - Picture
027 - Black bottom
---
480

Now this new 720x480 image, when stretched to 720x540, would look like the third frame in the sample. (Aside: is 720x540 allowed? If so, all I would need to do is manually add the black bars, rather than compress the picture and then add them with all this math.)

In closing: Can I force this mpeg stream to play at 1:1 without re-encoding the mpeg, with the DVD player adding thin black bars so it looks like the third sample? If not, how can I compress the picture vertically and then add the black bars myself, even though it would mean re-encoding the mpeg, so that during full screen playback it still looks like the third sample?

Help and advice appreciated!

[setarip_old]

Hi!As I understand it, the DVD standard is 720x480 pixels.That's for the "NTSC world". In the "PAL world" it's 720x576.

1) What's the display format according to the DVD label and/or package?

2) Have you tried changing the display format of your standalone DVD player? (Most have options for "4:3 Letterbox", "4:3 Pan & Scan", and "16:9)

[Just_a_boy]

My "Eating Raoul" is a Region 1 NTSC DVD. I guess I should have mentioned that I'm in America :)

And yes, I tried every possible setting in all three of my DVD players to no avail.

[setarip_old]

And again, what's the display format according to the DVD label and/or package?

[Just_a_boy]

Pardon me, I see what you mean. It says 1.85:1 anamorphic widescreen. But I believe this movie was filmed for 1.66 and that the distortion is because the person doing the film to DVD transfer simply didn't look closely and realize that. The IMDB "Technical Specs" link usually tells a movie's aspect ratio but for this movie it doesn't. However, the IMDB "DVD Details" link says 1.85 anamorphic but I'm convinced that's only because that's what the package says even though it's a mistake.

[setarip_old]

I believe it will display properly on a widescreen TV (High Definition/"HD" has nothing to do with this) - and it should also display properly on a conventional TV if you set the player to "4:3 Letterboxed"...

[Just_a_boy]

But I've just explained... it does not. It has no black bars built in, so if it displays as 16:9 anamorphic it gets smashed down, but if it displays as full screen it gets stretched up. It needs to look like the third sample. I have set my DVD players to 4:3 PS, 4:3 LB, and even tried 16:9 and it does not make the picture right. Please trust me on this much: The factory disk is in error. It will not display correctly on any old school 4:3 television, no matter what the DVD player settings.

But even if you set all that aside, and we went back to the start, and all I said was "I have a plain old 720x480 mpeg that I want my DVD players to display at true 1:1, 720x480, with no vertical distortion either way", what would the answer be? Because that's the answer I need here.

[setarip_old]

Not until you've viewed the DVD on a widescreen TV can you say whether, "The factory disk is in error.", as opposed to, "It does not display perfectly on a conventional (4:3) TV", which is NOT an unusual occurrence...

By the way, how does it play on your PC?

[Just_a_boy]

Indeed, I can't address a widescreen TV, but then, in several years and a couple thousand movies, this is the only one that has ever behaved this way on my 4:3 TV.

In the "Cyberlink Power DVD player" in my PC, it displays smashed down, as in the first sample. When I bring it to my hard drive with Decrypter and then open the .vob in an ordinary mpeg player, it displays the same, smashed down.

[setarip_old]

I sent the movie to a friend to check out on his HDTV and he said it looked fine, but he had never seen the movie before and I suspect it didn't look fine.Indeed, I can't address a widescreen TVAssuming your friend's TV is also widescreen (as well as HDTV), a simple snapshot should allow you to see what he saw...

[mc2man]

I also have this title and would agree it displays slightly squished on a 4:3 tv
I'm also very hesitant to suggest a solution (on my 1st. post) that is not a proper solution. In any event you could try applying this avisynth scrip LanczosResize(720,480,0,0,720,480) 0r if not enough (720,480,0,20,720,460)
I used dvdrb filter editor to run and it does looks better on tv, on pc couldn't tell

[Just_a_boy]

mc2man - thanks for the reply. As far as your suggestion, I don't know anything about AviSynth. What is your script doing? Is it adding black bars? Please stay with the thread if you feel like it because I appreciate all help and suggestions.

setarip_old - My friend's TV is a Samsung HD widescreen. He is keen to find solutions to puzzles like this so when I asked him for a photo of his screen, he set up a tripod at front and center and took some very careful and accurate control sample pictures.

At about 31:00 into the movie, frame number 55286 according to TMPGenc, there is a better control frame than the one I was using. This is where a round spot zooms in and out as a transition between scenes. In the photos my friend took, he overlaid his settings in fine text to the lower left. I added some comments in much larger text. Here are the test images:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/carsonsitty/sample1.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/carsonsitty/sample2.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/carsonsitty/sample3.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/carsonsitty/sample4.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/carsonsitty/sample5.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c344/carsonsitty/sample6.jpg

As you can see, no matter what he does, the picture is either way too wide or a little too tall, just as I've said from the start, just as it is on my 4:3 TV. Forgive me for repeating myself, but I must: This problem is an error in the production of the DVD. It's not my settings, it's not my player or my TV, and it's not my lack of technical expertise! It's a factory defect that needs to be fixed.

When I process the mpeg through TMPGenc Mpeg Editor I have the choice of calling the output "Common Mpeg" or "DVD Video". If I say "DVD Video", I get just two choices for aspect ratio: "Image 4:3" or "Image 16:9". Too tall or too short. But if I specify the output as "Common Mpeg" I get four choices. Here they are with their results:

"Pixel 1:1" - Just right. The mpeg plays at 720x480 and the picture is perfect.
"Image 4:3" - Too tall.
"Image 16:9" - Too short.
"Image 2.21:1" - haven't tried it.

With the "Pixel 1:1" setting, I finally get success. Trouble is, that's just with the mpeg, played as an mpeg in a normal media player, in the PC. As soon as I send it to my DVD players it gets stretched vertically and we're back to square one. I try to author it as a DVD and my software warns me that 1:1 is not allowed, that I must choose 16:9 or 4:3. If I burn it to CD as a plain old mpeg data file, my DVD player STILL stretches it vertically to 4:3! This boggles my mind. Why can't I simply play this mpeg as it truly exists, 720x480? Why must I endure one kind of distortion or another? I don't really expect that sensible answers to those questions exist...

So, as I said earlier: Whether or not you're ready to acknowledge that this is a factory development error, we could forget everything up to this point and address the issue much more simply:

I have a 720x480 mpeg that I want to be able to play in my DVD player at its true 720x480, but my DVD player insists on distorting it vertically. How can I play it as it was made, at 720x480? An answer to this one question would answer this entire thread.

Thanks for trying so hard to help...

[mc2man]

What I meant about not being proper is I really don't know what the resizer is doing. It's modified from what is used in dvdrb to change a 4:3 nonanamorphic to 16:9 anamorphic. When you use it on an anamorphic title it will distort vertically. I've reencoded the title using the 1st filter and it is much improved compared to orig., though not "perfect" (I'm using scene just before your samples of car driving away - easier to pause on dvd player). The difference compared to orig. is remarkable though not a perfect circle (11 15/16 vert. to 12 1/8 hor.)
Using LanczosResize(720,480,0,8,720,404) makes it almost exact
but does crop a small amount from top and bottom. I'll stick with 1st filter values myself. Note: i don't see anywhere near the difference on a pc compared to tv.
You could ck. out the dvd rebuilder section for a free version, I assume it has a filter editor, (haven't used the free ver. since the pro became available)

[setarip_old]

As you can see, no matter what he does, the picture is either way too wide or a little too tall, just as I've said from the start, just as it is on my 4:3 TV.So now you know, with certainty, that the problem is not limited to a 4:3 TV's output...

[Just_a_boy]

As demonstrated by the very subject line of this thread, I've known that all along. Now can we please look to a solution? I ask for the third time: How can I force my DVD players to display a 720x480 mpeg at 720x480, without any distortion?

[manono]

Hi-

Yeah, that DVD is royally messed up. I checked several reviews, and some of them say the same as you. The best one says:
Although the film is encoded as anamorphic widescreen, I'm not convinced that it was done quite right. When viewed on an anamorphic display, the picture looks horizontally stretched so that everyone appears very squat and pudgy; it seems much closer to correct when the anamorphic enhancement is shut off and the film is played in full frame 1.33:1 mode. In support of this theory, irises that plainly are in intended to be circular are instead ovoid when viewed anamorphically; they are circular only if the aspect ratio is reduced to about 1.5:1.
http://www.digitallyobsessed.com/showreview.php3?ID=5878

Although it can be fixed by frameserving via VDub, the best way is by opening an AVISynth script in TMPGEnc (if that's what you intend to reencode it with). And the best way to get a script is with FitCD. You also have to know how much black bars are at the top and bottom of the picture, so they can be cropped away. Make a D2V in DGIndex, open it in GKnot, go to the Resolution Tab and start cropping. Or, open a vob in VDubMod and crop in the filters section. All this assumes you've had some experience doing things like this, which evidently you haven't.

Assuming 10 pixels of black at the top and bottom (it's probably a bit more), a FitCD script for encoding it as 16:9 gives me:

Crop(0,10,0,-10)
LanczosResize(624,480,0,2,720,456)
AddBorders(48,0,48,0)
ConvertToRGB24()
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/9471/fitcdzk3.th.jpg (http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fitcdzk3.jpg)
[img=http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/9471/fitcdzk3.th.jpg] (http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fitcdzk3.jpg)

As near as I can determine, it was filmed at 1.33:1. The DVD has done some cropping to make it wider than that now. No way to get back the original AR at this point.

Oh, and there's no way to force a DVD player to display 1:1. They only know 4:3 and 16:9. Fixing it requires reencoding it.

[Just_a_boy]

Oh, and there's no way to force a DVD player to display 1:1. They only know 4:3 and 16:9. Fixing it requires reencoding it.

Thank you for settling that for me, monano. Now, the majority of your reply deals with software that I have never heard of, and it all sounds rather complex and daunting, so before spending weeks trying to acquire and learn a new bag of tricks, I'm going to hunt down my ancient video tape and check a couple things.

Mainly, I strongly disagree with your assessment that Eating Raoul was made 1.33 and cropped for the DVD release. In his role as director Bartel employed aspects from 1.66 to 2.35, and this was, after all, a genuine theatrical release, not a straight-to-video fast buck. Eating Raoul was made just two films after his enormous success with Death Race 2000 (1.85) and immediately following his more moderate success with Cannonball! (1.66) and while he was still, I believe, in the 1.66 "frame" of mind (pun intended). After Eating Raoul came Not for Publication (1.85) and Lust in the Dust (2.35) and then on with the rest of his career, with nary a full screen movie in sight.

No, I'm convinced that this film was made 1.66 and that if black bars of 30 pixels each were added to the top and bottom it would play right, just exactly as in the third panel of my sample in the opening post of this thread... that is, if a true 4:3 frame is allowed by a DVD player. Is it? If I send it a 720x540 mpeg, will it still distort it, or will it play it 1:1? I'll make a short 720x540 mpeg from scratch and author it to DVD and find out.

If it works, I say that this would certainly be the best solution. There is no "loss" of pixels by averaging and blending them in order to compress them vertically. All we would need to do is add the 30 pixels top and bottom and leave the center band of "film" unchanged, even though necessarily re-encoded.

Meantime, the quest for my ancient video tape continues, but I fear it may have been in a box of tapes I gave to a neighbor couple a while back that has since moved away. I'll just grab another one off eBay if need be, because I vow, one way or the other I'm going to get to the bottom of this :)

I see now that an Australian PAL Region 4 DVD of Eating Raoul is available (eBay number 230081655277 is an example) but it still says 1.85 widescreen. Groan.

Thanks for your help, everyone. I'll post more when I know more.

[manono]

I'm no expert on the proper aspect ratio of the movie. I only know what I read:
Columbia TriStar has seen fit to violate both the original audio and video, producing a most distasteful version of Eating Raoul. The film was shot in a full frame aspect ratio, 1.33:1. Yet this DVD is presented in 1.85:1 to fit widescreen TVs. Consider this the opposite of anamorphic, and akin to cropping. People look short and bloated, like squat frogs. The film is acerbic enough—there is no need to punctuate it with a surrealistic stretching of the characters.

For those of us who have spent the last several years touting Original Aspect Ratio, this decision represents a particularly bitter irony. Many widescreen movies are cropped or panned and scanned to fit the movie into a 1.33:1 aspect ratio. This is done to appease owners of 1.33:1 television sets who dislike the black bars at the top and bottom of the screen. Tragic, then, that a movie which is not in need of cropping to fit a 1.33:1 (normal) television set has been pulled out of shape to fit a 1.85:1 (widescreen) television set. If the disc weren't right here in front of me, I would assume this was the punch line to a videophile joke.
http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/eatingraoul.php
The fullscreen picture transfer is a little coarse, and loses detail during darker scenes, but it copes well with an old print and offers little to spoil the fun. It certainly handles the saturated red light of the swingers party.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2001/03/06/eating_raoul_1982_dvd_review.shtml

That's from a review of the R2 DVD. Now this review of the R4 DVD implies it was shot at 1.33:1, but was intended to be displayed at a wider ratio, with matting cropping out the top and bottom:
The video transfer reflects the low budget of the film. The worst problem is the aspect ratio - the film has been presented in full-frame. This means we miss out on the benefits of anamorphic enhancement and also notice several instances of the boom mic entering the frame, which would normally be covered by the (presumably) 1.85:1 matting of the theatrical presentation.
http://www.dvd.net.au/review.cgi?review_id=678

I don't know. Take your pick. If you don't know how to reencode it for DVD to correct the error, easier would be to reencode it for AVI. If you have a DVD/MPEG-4 player capable of playing AVIs, that might be one way to go. Or buy the R2 DVD maybe?

If I send it a 720x540 mpeg, will it still distort it, or will it play it 1:1?

NTSC DVDs are normally 720x480 and either 4:3 or 16:9. The AVI can be 1:1 and 720x540 (that's 1.33:1, though) if you wish. I don't know enough about MPEGs to tell you if the player will output them at 1:1. Maybe someone else knows the answer.

[Just_a_boy]

Well manono, all I can say is... they're all wrong, and I'm right! No, seriously, I'm not kidding. I mean it.

Point 1 - They say it was "shot at 1.33" but that's just because 1.33 looks so much closer to the truth, but the truth is 1.66 as shown in the sixth of the six separate samples I posted above. 1.33 is close, but not right. They're not looking at it with the same scrutiny as me.

Point 2 - I repeat, this was a theatrical release shot by a well-known widescreen director. He shot the movie immediately before this in 1.66 and shot many other widescreen movies throughout his career. There's no reason in the world to think he shot a full frame movie out of the clear blue sky... and for a theatrical release!

Point 3 - The only concession I can make to the 1.33 crowd is that he may have shot it in Kubrick 1.33 ala Full Metal Jacket and Eyes Wide Shut, but I doubt even that, and I doubt that's what the 1.33 crowd means anyway... except perhaps the one that mentioned the boom mike.

No, I say it has not been cropped top and bottom. It has simply been transferred to DVD wrong, as I've said from the very start.

I still can't find my rusty old worn out video tape. Time to go buy it off eBay, I guess. When I do, I'll bet I can prove everything I've just said: At 1.33 off the video tape, the circular iris will be round, and the sides will have been cropped off to go from 1.66 to 1.33 for the full frame effect.

[foxyshadis]

Have you written to the authoring house (if you can find it) and the studio? It may not mean much, but there's always a slim possibility of an eventual re-release, and at the least avoiding such a blatant mistake in the future. Although it doesn't seem like much, getting enough complaints can push them to fix it.

Really, what sort of authoring house would just ignore the film matte marks and totally smushed video? o.O