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Metro
22nd January 2007, 18:55
I'm going to summarize the current state of decrypting HD-DVDs at this time as I see it. Things seem to me to have become rather a jumble of different efforts. This morning I realized I don't know what would be the 'best' combination of programs and GUIs to use for a simple rip-and-watch, and if I'm confused it probably means that others are too.

In less than a month the original work by Muslix64 has virtually exploded into a bunch of tools aiming for the ultimate goal of being a one-click ripper. Many ingenious tricks have been posted by skilled people and the majority of posts have been both productive and instructive. The negative side is that we now have several GUIs, some linking to potentially transient URLs to grab keys. We have several methods of extracting keys, and we have no perfect tool because some do things that the others don't but in turn they lack features of the former. Meanwhile there is now a plethora of threads here which are in danger of losing focus and it's difficult to keep on top of all of them.

To compound the problem, there is a lack of comprehensive knowledge of the structure of the HD-DVD and the component parts of the navigation, control and object specifications. Given that the format is relatively new and the specs are to some extent restricted to paid-up members of the consortium which developed it, it's not surprising that we're having trouble picking it up. But we're getting there. It's been an exciting ride but it's a bit like a plant which has grown too quickly; maybe we need to prune it a little to ensure it grows in the direction we want.

In essence I believe that there are four parts to the effort to date:

- Further development of the original content decryption program including recoding in compiled languages;
- Perfecting automated extraction of keys from memory to feed the backup program;
- Automating the editing of XML-based XPL files to overcome navigaton and control problems in IME/UControl discs;
- The production of a friendly GUI to control the various components above.

Subsidiary to the above we now have lists of keys in more than one place on the internet and at this time there is talk of lists of hacked XPLs becoming available.

Finally we have a lot of promises and intentions to incorporate this feature or that function, and we also have Sourceforge repositories of code for people to collaborate.

In an ideal world each of the above components would be a building block which would have common hooks and specification so it could be plugged into the existing model and swapped out when changed. It shouldn't matter if you use Joe's key extractor or Fred's, or Mike's GUI or Mary's interface. In traditional programming, that would be achieved by having a high-level specification of the inputs and outputs of each block and each component author would stick to that structure.

With a loosely-coordinated effort such as we have here that's not so easy. We also have differing ideas on how to do things, mostly equally valid and brilliant in conception but not necessarily compatible. Combining two blocks into one may seem good, but it locks out the assimilated block for other developers. Fortunately we haven't seen much ego-polishing and everyone seems to want to pull together which is both a tribute to the great people working on the problem and the untiring efforts of the moderators.

What would be the best way of tying everything together? That's a difficult one, and as a newcomer to this forum I'm certainly not going to try to push my ideas onto others. (I can forgive you for thinking "Who the hell does this person think they are?") I'll just throw out a few thoughts and see if they strike any chords. I think maybe four discrete threads for the component parts, a fifth thread for the module input/output specification and a sixth for discussion of the structure of content packs and objects. I'd be inclined to want to see new threads for each, since we have become a bit sloppy in some of the existing discussion.

I want to stress that I'm not negating anyone's efforts to date, in fact it's been fantastic to watch the incredible progress as it's happened. Effort and achievement have been outstanding; I just think that we need more coordination from here if we're going to create a robust tool and be able to move with the inevitable game of tag that the content providers will play.

You would be entitled to wonder who I am, and I'll just say that I am an IT manager and I'm also a staff member of another forum which deals with using hardware and software in ways that the creators never intended. Anyway, if you want to carry on this discussion in this thread, the door is open. If you want to tell me to shut up and do something useful instead of sounding off, that's fine too. I just wanted to stimulate some thought and with luck nudge the effort towards our common goal; I hope this ramble has done that.

-s-

dukey
22nd January 2007, 22:55
the 'community' could split programs up into 3
A gui, a key finder, and decrypter/extractor.

The key find and decrypters could always be command line tools that take certain standard paramaters. And the guis could just wrap these programs up. If done right they could be easily interchangeable ? Just ideas.

blutach
23rd January 2007, 13:25
@Metro

First off, good post, lots of thought behind it. And dukey, what you say makes sense, too.

In the beginning (one whole month ago - it feels like the Big Bang doesn't it and already we are millions of miles from the starting point), we had one awfully long thread which meandered from decryption proof of concept, to key extraction, to GUI development (in all its forms and ideas) and other stuff such as XML, understanding the specs, and raising and fighting the limitations of muslix64's early work.

That thread proved to be very unwieldy, as the pace which this exciting topic has increased by quantums (and just keeps accelerating). Compounding this is muslix64's wonderful further discoveries in Bluray.

Therefore, I asked people to try to segment their work for ease of reading. Yes, we now have plenty of topics, but each at least pertains to something or other that is topic specific. This should enable people who have interest in that topic and something meaningful to contribute to it to easily do so, while hopefully minimising the cross posts that inevitably occur during a frenzied phase of initial software development, where many ideas are proposed and tested.

So, for now, I hope the plethora of threads won't prove to be too difficult to handle or hamper development. If it does, I will combine things, where I consider it necessary to do so.

Eventually, as things develop, the logical thing is for software development to proceed to our Development forum, while core decrypting issues stay here. However, whilst this development stays dedicated to decrypting, I think it probably belongs here.

Again, thanks for your thoughful input.

Regards

He-Man
23rd January 2007, 13:58
@blutach and other moderators.

I think it's time to split this decryption sub-forum up in two seperate sub-forums: one for CCS (DVD) Decryption and another one for AACS (HD DVD + Blu-Ray) Decryption. I will make it easier to navigate your forum for both DVD users and HD DVD/Blu-Ray users, since AACS is not related to DVD decryption.

Right now the description for this sub-forum says:
Decrypting (531 Viewing)
How do I get the files on my DVD to my harddisk?

Split this into two and have one about how to get DVD onto the HDD and another about how to get HD DVD & Blu-Ray onto the HDD.

You already several sub-forums for different codecs, it would be nice to have different sub-forums for different encryptions/disc types too.

captain_video
24th January 2007, 22:18
Splitting the topics between DVD extraction and HD-DVD/Blu-Ray extraction would seem like a logical arrangement and would help the users of this forum navigate through the information more easily. I started out looking at the main discussion thread several weeks ago and by the time I got back to it the thread had grown from a dozen pages or so to over 50! I have made an attempt to get caught up but the amount of information is overwhelming and to be frank, some of the discussion is over my head.

At the risk of being a nuisance and possibly misposting in the wrong thread, there are a few things I'd like cleared up with regards to BackupHDDVD. It appears that this program is being used to backup HD-DVDs to a hard drive by extracting certain keys resident in memory for decryption during playback. Somehow the keys are being used to decrypt the EVO files stored on the hard drive when using PowerDVD 6.5 for playback.

If I'm offbase at this point let me know and I'll continue reading (which I plan to do regardless). Otherwise, how are the keys used in conjunction with PowerDVD or any other playback software? So far the topic doesn't appear to address any method for backing up HD-DVDs to anything other than a hard drive.

I've seen the question posted several times but never saw a response so I'll ask it again here. Can the XBox HD-DVD drive be used in conjunction with a PC? What HD-DVD drives are being used to rip the HD-DVDs? So far I've only found one HD-DVD drive that's available from HP for use with a PC, but I'm still looking.

Sorry for sounding like such a noob but since this thread is open for general discussion it seemed like the best place to post rather than clutter up the more technical thread. I'm sure there are others that would like to know the same answers.:confused:

Metro
26th January 2007, 01:51
@captain_video - you are quite right, and that's why I started this thread so confused people could ask questions and comment generally without getting struck for going seriously off-topic. Because of the excitement and multiple directions it's quite a challenge to stay on top of it.

To answer you in a nutshell, I think most people here are playing, or ripping, HD-DVDs to their PC HDDs using the X-Box 360 drive. That's what I have. It works perfectly with the PC as far as hardware is concerned, but to play HD-DVD content you need either a special version of WinDVD or one of a couple of versions of PowerDVD which can handle HD-DVD and AACS, and there are also specific hardware requirements.

Ripping is still a matter of running a version of Muslix64's original program, either in Java or recompiled. It can be run from the command line or wrapped in one of the various GUIs. You'll need to feed BackupHDDVD with the Volume Key for the disc (in a config file) for the program to decrypt the content. If the disc has enhanced content, e.g. IME or UControl, you will need to modify an XML file to get it to play properly.

Once you've decrypted the EVOs and patched the XML if necessary, the movie should play directly from your hard drive on a reasonably fast PC without problems and with far fewer hardware restrictions. You don't need the keys once you've decrypted and copied the movie.

Current efforts are improving the GUIs, adding functionality, researching the actual filestructure and disc navigation to fix the problems we're seeing and compiling to improve speed. Automatic key provision is also on the cards.

All the above is covered in various threads and as others will be quick to point out, searching is your friend. I guess we're stuck with a rather disjointed delivery of a lot of enthusiastic effort - but these are exciting times and things are moving fast. The thing is, nothing that's been done here is wasted, and sooner or later there will be some pretty good and complete rippers available. Stick with it!

-Sarah

Edit - I forgot to mention you'll need a UDF 2.5 driver to get the HD-DVD filesystem to be recognised on XP. Google for it. Also, before anyone says it, I simplified some of the above, but it was beginning not to be a nutshell any more...

blutach
26th January 2007, 02:04
All the above is covered in various threads and as others will be quick to point out, searching is your friend. I guess we're stuck with a rather disjointed delivery of a lot of enthusiastic effort - but these are exciting times and things are moving fast. The thing is, nothing that's been done here is wasted, and sooner or later there will be some pretty good and complete rippers available. Stick with it!
Yes, as is inevitably the case, the work seems disjointed but hopefully, will converge within in a relatively short period of time. The progress just over the last week has been simply amazing. Remember, the community is playing a big catchup to AACS and is sprinting up the learning curve! I think it's great to see all this work.

Regards

captain_video
26th January 2007, 14:28
Thaks for the update. I was afraid I was going to have to read through another 1,000-post thread just to get up to speed. I'll probably still read through it when I have more time, along with all of the other threads that have popped up on the topic.

From what I've read the XBox 360 HD-DVD drive is an external USB drive, correct? I assume this is essentially plug and play like any other external optical disc drive, assuming you also have the right software for playback.

FoxDisc
26th January 2007, 17:58
I was afraid I was going to have to read through another 1,000-post thread just to get up to speed.

I think I've read all the 1,000 posts, but I'm still not fully up to speed. Since this is the "general discussion" on the current state, I'll ask my question here :-)

I'm successfully decrypting and backing up the main movie. I'm successsfully editing the VPLST000.XPL file (using 2the Max's process) to play the main movie with PDVD 6.5. What I'm not sure about is the many extra EVO's, menus/navigation, subtitiles, language slection and the *.ACA files.

I've read about the ACA files, and if I understand it correctly, they contain various image files and files used in the menu navigation structure. Appparently, they are encrypted, and I've looked at the ACA file extracter thread. It appears that some people are decrypting and extracting the data from the ACA file, then using CreateACA.exe (with some sort of feed file that identifies all the extracted decrypted files from the original ACA) to somehow put the ACA file(s) back together, then revising the VPLST000.XPL to reference the decrypted/recreated ACA file so that menu navigation is restored. I thought I'd try this process over the weekend, but I'm wondering if anyone has any better handle on how it's done than the info in the ACA thread entitled "HD DVD aca file extracter (and backuphddvd C++)"

I'm not seeing any subtitle, language selection or menus of any type, and every time I try to include any of that stuff in the XML file, it fails. I'm wondering if all that is in the ACA file handling that I need to figure out or if I'm making a mistake in the way I edit the XML file.

This thread lists these major areas for work:

"- Further development of the original content decryption program including recoding in compiled languages;
- Perfecting automated extraction of keys from memory to feed the backup program;
- Automating the editing of XML-based XPL files to overcome navigaton and control problems in IME/UControl discs;
- The production of a friendly GUI to control the various components above."

But it looks to me like ACA file handling and menu/navigation should be specifically identified in there, perhaps in the first content decryption group.

Metro
26th January 2007, 23:10
@ FoxDisc - You're probably right. Archive (ACA) files are part of the interactivity and there is quite a complex interplay between the various files, like Playlist (xpl), Script (js) and Subtitles (xas). I'm slowly absorbing this and if I can come up with a fairly simple guide (when I understand it all myself, of course) I'll share it here.

There's a lot of info at this site (http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/tags/HD+DVD/default.aspx) which I'm wading through at the moment. The HDDVD Jumpstart (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=49C63FBA-4C6D-4F1E-90BA-397D303864CA&displaylang=en) package is a good starting point

@captain_video - yes, it's an external USB2 drive, plug'n'pray, and I posted an inf file (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=944333#post944333) in another thread which will help to prevent XP choking on the 'memory unit' hardware in the drive if there's a hiccup on installation.

Regards,
-Sarah