PS3, HDMI Capture woes

[Dot50Cal]

Hi guys, I recently purchased an HDMI capable capture card which supports HD resolutions. I did this primarily for capturing recordings of High Definition Video Games off the PS3 for my site. Unfortunately now that I've received my PS3 I have found that HDCP is enabled even when playing games. I was under the impression it was only to be used on Blu-ray movies. Needless to say this really really sucks. I've blown a lot of money on this and I really would appreciate it if someone here could recommend a work around for this.

I realize I could use component via a component>hdmi adapter however I'd like to use the PS3's native HDMI out as I could have bought a component capture card for far less.

Is there perhaps a box which will strip the HDCP signal? As far as I can see this is the only work around I can find. :thanks:

[cacepi]

Is there perhaps a box which will strip the HDCP signal? As far as I can see this is the only work around I can find.
There is a device, the Spatz HDMI-2x (http://www.spatz-tech.de/), which can strip the HDCP signal. However, HDCP includes a provision for blacklisting, which means that this little black box might not work with later hardware. It isn't cheap, either; about $500 US.

Welcome to The Future. As you can see, it sucks harder than Traci Lords.

[Dot50Cal]

Thats what I'm afraid of, and at the price they are listed for..I'd have to be sure.

Since the PS3 is network capable and has regular firmware updates, couldnt these devices be blacklisted rather easily?

[cacepi]

Since the PS3 is network capable and has regular firmware updates, couldnt these devices be blacklisted rather easily?
From what I understand, the revocation list is stored in the disc itself, and not a machine's firmware; it would be far more trivial to perform a firmware dump and hack the firmware itself than trying to crack the AACS protection on a disc. Now, whether this is the case for the PS3 I'm not sure, but neither scenario - the firmware or the disc - is very appealing.

So, in theory, if you never play a game or disc that includes your banned device in its revocation list, then you should be able to use a stripper.

My advice? Wait for the modchips.

[easy2Bcheesy]

You require a PS3 debugging station from Sony which has the ability to turn off HDCP. HDCP is on all the time. Debugging stations are available to all games developers and other industry partners (I have one myself) but you will need to sign a Sony non-disclosure agreement. Also these devices have all multimedia playback disabled. It's games only.

What card are you using? Blackmagic Intensity? Are you hoping to capture 1080p or 720p? Feel free to PM me if you require assistance.

Does that Spatz device really strip HDCP? There is nothing about it in the instructions and I'm fairly sure that Spatz were warned off this a long time ago when their first HDCP stripper came out.

[Dot50Cal]

cacepi, Do you think modchips will allow the user to disable HDCP? I wasnt thinking that was possible.

easy, who is your employer? :) Nice to know the dev kits have the option. Im wondering if its dormant in the retail PS3's. Is it a TEST PS3 your referring to or a TOOL (not sure if thats what they still call the main dev units this time, but it was the PS2 name as Im sure your aware). Unfortunately Im not a dev, or a large site operator so it seems im out of luck on any official routes. Suppose Ill have to wait til grey market prices come down and they actually start appearing commonly (which will probably take a while unless we have another acclaim like bankruptcy).

Blackmagic Intensity, yeah. 1080p would be done for games that output to that resolution such as Ridge Racer 7. 720p (more common) for Resistance, etc. AFAIK the PS3 doesnt have a scaling chip so any attempts to capture at higher than native resolution would be useless. Though I would like very much to see how capturing a game that runs at 720p at 1080p just to compare the two and see how they both look. Always do-able for the 360. Would be interesting to see how the scaling works.

[easy2Bcheesy]

I'm not at liberty to discuss my employer, but it would be foolish to hold out hope for a debugging station PS3 or a devkit to magically appear for sale. For a start, the non-disclosure agreement you sign prohibits any kind of resale.

Modchips for PS3 won't be appearing for a long, long time. If at all. Similar to the Xbox 360, the PS3 has a Hypervisor that is on the look-out for modifications to its core all the time.

Also, I may be wrong but the Blackmagic Intensity does not support 1080p. There is physically not enough bandwidth on the PCIe x1 bus to sustain it for starters, and secondly the PS3 output 1080p/60 - and there is no capture card available for sale anywhere that will take that output directly from the PS3.

In terms of blowing a lot of money on your capture card, I'll buy it off you if you like. The UK hasn't had any stock yet and I'm curious to see the card in action. But put it this way - $250 is pocket change if that card lives up to its hype.

[Dot50Cal]

No magic envolved really ;) Gotta know the right people. Theres a whole community of folks who specialize in this sorta thing, so its only a matter of time before PS3 and other next gen dev systems start showing up. When that happens is unknown though, it took the Gamecube 2-3 years before NR Readers were commonplace. Mostly from the Acclaim auctions.

Also can you please answer that question, is this kit akin to the PS2 TEST or the PS2 TOOL? Or do both have such an option?

Ah You're right, I could have sworn I read somewhere it supported 1080p. Shame :\

Im not ready to sell just yet, I may just end up getting a component box and converting it to HDMI so I can use it. Though the Decklink HD Extreme (my first choice before this came out) is starting to look a lot better now.

I wouldnt want to capture 1080p 60fps anyway, Ridge Racer 7 is the only game to do that so far (to my knowledge) but 60 FPS isnt practical for web content anyway. I was under the impression that so long as the capture device supports the resolution, the fps its running at doesnt matter beyond what the user sets or does this change when one goes to a digital connection such as HDMI? If so it seems my initial choice of card was correct. Ugh. Why oh why did I let people at avs forum talk me into the Intensity!

One final question, Im to understand that HDCP is disabled when Component is being used on the PS3? (This probably seems like a VERY stupid question, but I'd like to be absolutely sure)

[Blue_MiSfit]

The Decklink / Multibridge series of cards should be able to capture from the PS3 using component. The Multibridge Pro is on an x4 PCIe board which just routes the signal through a fat DVI-like cable to the rackmount box, so there should be enough bandwidth for 1080p60 - but I agree that you shouldn't really capture in 1080p60. 720p60 is a better bet, considering that keeping full 1080p means that very few people will have the CPU horsepower to play the content!

HDCP is a digital DRM scheme, and component is an analog format. You should definitely be able to record.

~MiSfit

[easy2Bcheesy]

I don't think 1080p/60 is able to be captured on that hardware either, even though there is enough bandwidth. It's not really seen as a viable HD resolution for editing etc, and aside from HDCAM-SR there is no viable delivery format for it either as HD DVD tops out at 1080p/30 and Blu-ray can't even do that.

[cacepi]

Does that Spatz device really strip HDCP? There is nothing about it in the instructions and I'm fairly sure that Spatz were warned off this a long time ago when their first HDCP stripper came out.
The DVIMagic does strip HDCP, at least at 1.1 levels - don't know about 1.3 devices - or else it wouldn't be able to split the signal if HDCP were intact. That's another wonderful aspect of HDCP; single output.

-Edit- the PS3 is an HDMI 1.3 device, so scratch everything I wrote above.

The Spatz device is made in Germany, and I'm not fully clear on the intricacies of the EUCD (Germany's DMCA), but I think the anti-circumvention prohibitions are less strict than the DMCA's are. Of course, this certainly doesn't stop a content provider from adding any Spatz device to its revocation list, so the question is pretty much moot.

If there's any chance of bypassing HDCP on commercial consoles, the most likely is probably going to be an on-the-fly firmware hack on the BD drive itself, akin to the Xbox360 modchip. But, like you said, it's going to be a long time before we see chips for the PS3, if ever.

Dot50Cal can always try capture from the component outs, though; component to SDI converters aren't all that expensive, and would be more flexible than an HDMI-only capture device.

[cacepi]

I don't think 1080p/60 is able to be captured on that hardware either, even though there is enough bandwidth.
The MultibridgePro doesn't have dual link HD-SDI, so it's out of the running. You need serious iron for dual link, like a Kona 3 or XENA.

[Blue_MiSfit]

Thats right I forgot that 1080p60 necessitates dual link. The Multibridge Extreme does have dual HD-SDI.

[Turtleggjp]

Thats right I forgot that 1080p60 necessitates dual link.

I thought single link maxed out at 1920x1080 @ 60Hz, or 1920x1200 if you use the overscan bandwidth. That's what my 23" monitor uses.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi guys, I recently purchased an HDMI capable capture card which supports HD resolutions.Interesting.... May I ask what make/model?

[cacepi]

I thought single link maxed out at 1920x1080 @ 60Hz, or 1920x1200 if you use the overscan bandwidth.
You're thinking about DVI. We're talking about Serial Digital Interface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Digital_Interface) (SDI), which is a different animal altogether.

[CityK]

Hi guys, I recently purchased an HDMI capable capture card which supports HD resolutions.Interesting.... May I ask what make/model?
What card are you using? Blackmagic Intensity?Blackmagic Intensity, yeahLinkage (http://www.decklink.com/products/intensity/)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Many thanks for the link ;)

[jggimi]

Moved to HD forum.

[easy2Bcheesy]

How about a quick review of the Intensity then Dot50Cal? Specifically, does it work within VirtualDub's capture mode? Have you managed to actually capture anything yet?

Also, where did you get it from? My own reseller is insisting that it has not shipped yet...

[Turtleggjp]

I'd be curious to know just what kind of HDD setup you'd need to capture HDMI. I have two 74GB raptors in RAID0 that I used to use to capture uncompressed video at 640x480, but I think you'd need a lot more than that to capture HDMI.

[CityK]

Without providing any more information, its impossible to answer your question, as it depends entirely upon a number of factors.

First off, the inputed video stream itself (i.e. the uncompressed bitstream transmitted across the cable) will have a bitrate that is dependent upon
the resolution of the video material
the frame rate
the chroma subsampling used by the output source (4:4:4 or 4:2:2) and
the bit depth of the component samples given by the output source
That said -- on the other side of the equation (i.e. the stream output from your capture card and written to disk), necessary storage considerations will depend on whether you capture via
"loseless" and uncompressed .... eg. just write the raw RGB or YCbCr stream to a container
"loseless" and compressed ..... eg. use a codec like HuffyUV etc
"lousy" etc. .... eg. use a lousy codec .... which I suppose could range from capturing "near loseless" by just reducing the chroma subsampling (i.e. if the signal coming across the cable was 4:4:4, you could capture 4:2:2) to codecs with heavy compression and 4:2:0 sampling.
As well, you could possibly tailor the other variables listed above (frame size, frame rate, bit depth... ) to which you capture at.

With large video image resolutions and frame rates, and the desire to preserve all the above listed variables at their natively transmitted state, the ability to use realtime compression drops a select few codecs

[Blue_MiSfit]

I've done 1920x1080i60 (really p24 with pulldown), at 8 bit 4:2:2, with 4 channels of 16 bit 48 KHz audio all over SDI. The requrements were around 150mb/s sustained transfer - so a 3 drive RAID 0 was required.

As a RAID (and most drives actually) fills up, its overall sustained transfer speed slowly drops. In fact, after the RAID array (750gb) got ~ 2/3 full, it started dropping frames.

So I would really suggest a 4 drive SATA RAID 0 if you want great performance. Uncompressed HD is freaking gigantic - on Windows you have the advantage of using something like HuffYUV, or equally fast lossless codec (cineform HD if you've got $). On mac you're limited to SheerVideo, which doesn't yet exist for the Intel Mac platform :(

As CityK says though, there are a lot of variables. I think a 2 drive RAID0 of raptors would be able to handle 720p30, but that's just a guess :D

~MiSfit

[easy2Bcheesy]

Far cheaper to buy the CineForm codec if you're using the 4:2:2 colourspace - though for their cheaper offerings, you're limited to 1440x1080 as a maximum resolution. If you're in any way serious about high definition, $200 for Connect HD really is a bargain though. And if you're editing with Premiere, Aspect HD is superb. It makes working with HD feel like working with DV.

I use CineForm 720p/60 all the time and file sizes are usually around 1-1.2gb per minute. At that sort of throughput a normal SATA drive will cope.

I tried capturing 720p/60 4:4:4 completely uncompressed on a two drive 1TB RAID-0 array and lost frames, topping out at 57fps. Huffyuv is a very fast, totally lossless codec for 4:2:2 capture, but it's poor for 4:4:4 (ie 24-bit RGB). 43fps was the best capture rate I could muster.

I would say that any two drive 1TB RAID-0 array will be able to handle 720p/60 (or 1080i/60) uncompressed at 4:2:2.

[CityK]

I think a 2 drive RAID0 of raptors would be able to handle 720p30, but that's just a guess :DFor the video stream alone, uncompressed: 720p@30 with 4:4:4 and 8bit depth runs at a sustained ~79.10MBps (~278GB/hr)
720p@30 with 4:4:4 and 10bit depth runs at a sustained ~98.88MBps (~348GB/hr)
Just glancing at the read speeds for the Raptor150s (as reported by SR), they start at 88.3MBps and decay to ~55.4MBps. I'd hazzard a guess that the STR for writes would be in the range of 10-15% worse. Lets call it 10%.

So, if we can get the theoretical 2x increase with a 2 drive RAID0, you'd have roughly a 158MBps - 100MBps sustainable capture arrary for approx
- 1 hr for 8bit depth and
- ~ 52 min for 10 bit ... but at the inner tracks of the disks the rate would be very close to the required STR needed to capture

[CityK]

I tried capturing 720p/60 4:4:4 completely uncompressed on a two drive 1TB RAID-0 array and lost frames, topping out at 57fps.~158.2MBps for 8bit and ~197.75MBps for 10bit. ... Again, glancing at the read STR values contained in SR's database (from a limited sample of drives), it appears that 500GB drive's would have around a 70-80MBps outer track value. Factor in slower writes, and that probably accounts for the inability to get the full 60fps at the 8bit depth ... I know you're probably only capturing brief clips of the games right? (thus, staying near the outer edges of the disk before decay starts to set in).

I would say that any two drive 1TB RAID-0 array will be able to handle 720p/60 (or 1080i/60) uncompressed at 4:2:2. 720p/60 at 4:2:2 and 8bit is ~105.5MBps (~370GB/hr) and 720p/60 at 4:2:2 and 10 bit is ~131.8MBps (~463.3GB/hr) 1080i/30 (I prefer the frame rate notation :P ) at 4:2:2 and 8bit is ~119.5MBps (~420GB/hr) 1080i/30 at 4:2:2 and 10bit is ~149.4MBps (~525GB/hr)

As the inner tracks on the drives would probably only be ~40MBps, the array would only be sufficient between the outer tracks to about middle of the drives in all cases ... and in the case of the 10bit captures, even the outer tracks would be suspect

[jmac698]

use a HD benchmark to view the rate graph, estimate where the speed drops below required, then create a partition in this first xx Gb. I tried it and it is like having a new, faster, but less sized hard drive. The remaining space can be used for other data. Anyhow it guarantees speed, as long as you keep it defragged.

[CityK]

use a HD benchmark to view the rate graph, estimate where the speed drops below required, then create a partition in this first xx Gb. I tried it and it is like having a new, faster, but less sized hard drive. Its known as "short stroking" the drive

[easy2Bcheesy]

Still no word from the OP on how the Intensity actually performs... I'm *still* waiting for mine and would appreciate knowing more about its performance and whether it can be seen and accessed by VirtualDub. The Decklink could be, so I'd be interested to know if Intensity follows suit.

[BlackSharkfr]

I i am very very interested in the Decklink Studio card since it can capture both hdmi and SD/HD analogue component.
I mostly plan on using it to capture/watch/play realtime video game footage on systems like PS3/X360/Wii or even record Fullscreen HD PC footage.

-So the PS3 is using the hdcp protection all the time but is it the same with the Xbox360 ?

-An other thing i haven't found any answer : can it capture component 480p from the Wii ? (the specs only say "PAL/NTSC")

-And finally on their site they keep talking about their MJPEG codecs which interests me a lot (i don't have any x3-x4 RAID configuration) is it a hardware encoding or just software ? (this should determine whether i'll have to buy a dual or quad core processor)
Thanks

[cacepi]

-So the PS3 is using the hdcp protection all the time but is it the same with the Xbox360 ?
No, as the Xbox360 doesn't have digital video (DVI/HDMI) outputs.

-An other thing i haven't found any answer : can it capture component 480p from the Wii ? (the specs only say "PAL/NTSC")
If it can capture component video, then it should be able to capture @ 480p.

[Blue_MiSfit]

The decklink cards do not have hardware mjpeg encoders. It's a big 'gotcha'. You can capture HD over analog component, but it's a bastard because compressing it in real time is only possible with a couple of solutions - sheer video, and cineform - neither of which are available for the latest high end Apple systems - because cineform is windows only, and sheer isn't available for the x86 macs yet.

Multithreaded huffyuv would probably handle it, but its not multithreaded :D

Other than that, you're pretty much SOL when it comes to capturing HD :)

A note - even mjpeg won't do realtime HD - unless you drop the quality down to an (IMHO) unacceptable level. The only way that I was able to do it was 1) capture uncompressed to a RAID and compress to mjpeg overnight (to facilitate editing in FCP) 2)capture in DVCPRO HD, which is nice, but it internally downsamples to 1280x1080 for 1080 input, and 960x720 for 720 input.

DVCPRO HD is pretty nice actually, but it doesn't look as nice as uncompressed or uncompressed -> mjpeg, and it doesn't work on Windows, unless you have a proprietary decoder, and I wasn't able to track down any affordable ones.

~MiSfit

[Revgen]

Multithreaded huffyuv would probably handle it, but its not multithreaded :D


Yes it is.:)
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=859732&postcount=54

[jmac698]

A component capture card doesn't necessarily cap 480p (www.pluggedin.tv), but it's a fact that it will capture an image by coincidence; since the specs make it double the speed, you see two frames on the screen side-by-side. Any consumer tv card can capture 480p. You just need a script to decode the side-by-side images. When I did this, I lost a few pixels from one side, this can be fixed by twiddling with capture res.

[Velocity 7]

A component capture card doesn't necessarily cap 480p (www.pluggedin.tv), but it's a fact that it will capture an image by coincidence; since the specs make it double the speed, you see two frames on the screen side-by-side. Any consumer tv card can capture 480p. You just need a script to decode the side-by-side images. When I did this, I lost a few pixels from one side, this can be fixed by twiddling with capture res.

Are you saying that for 480p60 component video material, the actual signal is actually two subframes side by side in a single frame (720x480), each subframe being approximately 360x480?

(For example, if you have frames 0 and 1 (which happen in chronological order), frame 0 and frame 1 are placed side-by-side, horizontally squished. If you have any visual examples of this side-by-side business, please post. :3

[easy2Bcheesy]

Just as a PS to this thread, it is physically impossible for the Blackmagic Intensity to capture PS3. There are numerous formats of HDMI output. The Intensity only supports devices that output YPrPb 4:2:2.

Also available on the HDMI spec are RGB24, and YPrPb 4:4:4.

The PS3 outputs RGB24, so even if you decrypted HDCP, you're left with a signal that cannot be captured by the Blackmagic equipment. I'm going to assume this goes for the Studio version of the board too.

[easy2Bcheesy]

A component capture card doesn't necessarily cap 480p (www.pluggedin.tv), but it's a fact that it will capture an image by coincidence; since the specs make it double the speed, you see two frames on the screen side-by-side. Any consumer tv card can capture 480p. You just need a script to decode the side-by-side images. When I did this, I lost a few pixels from one side, this can be fixed by twiddling with capture res.

Any chance of a screenshot?

[SeeMoreDigital]

I think he's referring to this card...

http://www.pluggedin.tv/SweetSpot-Video-Processor?sc=2&category=2


Cheers

[Dot50Cal]

An FYI, I have the PMS Sweetspot and it wont do like he says, Speaking through PM's I suppose it doesnt have any image stabalization, since as soon as colors change or something besides mostly black is shown the screen goes green and wavy. However even if you can combine the fields you then have a 320x480 image which is squished width wise, so Im not sure of the point?

Its available in US currency here - http://www.pixelmagicsystems.com/products/pdi/pdi_deluxe.htm at the makers site, though it goes by a different name in the UK (Sweetspot) it is PDI Deluxe in the USA.

[CityK]

Just as a PS to this thread, it is physically impossible for the Blackmagic Intensity to capture PS3. There are numerous formats of HDMI output. The Intensity only supports devices that output YPrPb 4:2:2.

Also available on the HDMI spec are RGB24, and YPrPb 4:4:4.

The PS3 outputs RGB24, so even if you decrypted HDCP, you're left with a signal that cannot be captured by the Blackmagic equipment. I'm going to assume this goes for the Studio version of the board too.There are some somewhat related threads on AVS, which include some nice green screenshots :D :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9279371
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9595662

I'm wondering if BM intentionally castrated the driver or firmware for the device, as the AD IC should be able to handle the various potential input source streams.