PgcEdit 8.0 beta discussion thread

[r0lZ]

PgcEdit v8.0 final is now released. See the new PgcEdit v8 thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=121146).


PgcEdit v8.0 beta 2

If you want to test it, download it here (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/pgcedit/beta/).
Of course, use it at your own risk.
See the history in the Help menu for the changelog.

Please report the bugs in this thread. Thanks.

[Garambone]

Thank you very much for this major release! Can't wait to test the new functionalities. Great tool!

So, I've just tested the "Delete Uncalled PGCs" function on Seinfeld S7. It found 17 uncalled PGCs and seems to work perfectly. The DVD structure is absolutely clean now!

However the Time Map Rebuild function seems to be unable to fix the 2 uncongruencies found on VTS 2 and 3. Everytime I run the verification plugin, it accuses these wrong TMAPS. I FixVTSed the whole DVD and it didn't change.

[r0lZ]

Can you post the output of the Time Map verification? And maybe also the PGC details (Info -> PGC)?

Of course, be sure to save the DVD after the rebuilding of the time maps!

[blutach]

Strange issue with B2.

After calling Info - Find Uncalled PGCs, if I try to put the mouse on an uncalled PGC which is a Root Menu it goes somewhere else - usually a PGC in VMGM.

Anyone else getting this?

EDIT: Might only be with one DVD - will revert after more experimenting.

Regards

[r0lZ]

Might be caused by misplaced user labels. Do you have some labels defined (not including the "uncalled" labels added automatically by PgcEdit)?
Anyway, I'm waiting for your confirmation...

[blutach]

I've emailed you - I am sure it has to do with a corrupt IFO with bad end of table pointers.

Regards

[r0lZ]

OK, beta 3 is here (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/pgcedit/beta/).

The frame rate problem (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=913106#post913106) should be fixed, and I have added an option in Remove Cells to automatically remove the chapters (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=912893#post912893) at the end of the chapter table when they are not assigned to a program any more.

Sorry, blu, I haven't analysed the PGC Selector problem yet...

[blutach]

Little bug in shorten the chapter table.

In the following I removed cells 3-15 and ended up with 2 chapters.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3156/12062006233102bi6.png
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4558/12062006233136zp7.png

Of course, there is no program 2.

Regards

[r0lZ]

Bizarre! OK, I'll verify that too...

[r0lZ]

Yep, there was a bug. I have replaced beta 3 by a fixed version (but haven't increased the beta version number.)

[Garambone]

Can you post the output of the Time Map verification? And maybe also the PGC details (Info -> PGC)?

Of course, be sure to save the DVD after the rebuilding of the time maps!


Sure, there it is.

TMap verification:
------------------- Summary -------------------
VTST 1 , 1 TTN 1 (0:01) Title 19: No TMAPTI!
VTST 2 , 1 TTN 1 (22:47) Title 1: Wrong TMAP duration
VTST 2 , 2 TTN 2 (22:46) Title 2: Wrong TMAP duration
VTST 2 , 4 TTN 4 (22:46) Title 4: Wrong TMAP duration


Rebuild time map log:

Some times have been fixed in VTS_TMAPTI of VTS 1:

VTS 1, PGC 1, cell 1: 00:00:00.18 -> 00:00:00.14
VTS 1, PGC 1, cell 2: 00:00:00.18 -> 00:00:00.14
VTS 1, PGC 1 playback time: 00:00:01.06 -> 00:00:00.28


After saving the project I ran the TMap verification again and voilà:

------------------- Summary -------------------
VTST 2 , 1 TTN 1 (22:47) Title 1: Wrong TMAP duration
VTST 2 , 2 TTN 2 (22:46) Title 2: Wrong TMAP duration
VTST 2 , 4 TTN 4 (22:46) Title 4: Wrong TMAP duration


Finally, the PGC Info as you requested (only from TTN 1):

VTST 2 , 1 TTN 1 (22:47) Title 1 - Chapters: 5, Programs: 5, Cells: 5

********** pre commands:
1 Set gprm(9) =(mov) gprm(14)
2 Set gprm(9) &=(and) 61440
3 if ( gprm(9) == 8192 ) then { Goto line 10 }
4 if ( gprm(9) == 20480 ) then { Goto line 10 }
5 Set gprm(9) =(mov) gprm(14)
6 Set gprm(14) =(mov) 8193
7 Set gprm(12) =(mov) 0
8 if ( gprm(6) == 6826 ) then { Set gprm(14) =(mov) 10922 }
9 Break
10 Set gprm(9) =(mov) gprm(10)
11 Set gprm(9) &=(and) 127
12 Set gprm(2) =(mov) gprm(9)
13 (SetSTN) Set Sub-picture stream = gprm(2)
14 Set gprm(3) =(mov) gprm(2)
15 Set gprm(3) &=(and) 63
16 Set gprm(4) =(mov) gprm(10)
17 Set gprm(4) &=(and) 3840
18 Set gprm(4) /=(div) 256
19 Set gprm(4) &=(and) 15
20 (SetSTN) Set Audio stream = gprm(4)
21 (CallSS) Call the VMGM PGC 8, resume cell 1
********** post commands:
1 Set gprm(9) =(mov) gprm(14)
2 Set gprm(14) =(mov) 8193
3 if ( gprm(9) == 8241 ) then { Set gprm(14) =(mov) 8241 }
4 if ( gprm(6) == 6826 ) then { Set gprm(14) =(mov) 4098 }
5 Set gprm(9) =(mov) sprm(1:Audio stream number)
6 Set gprm(9) &=(and) 15
7 Set gprm(10) &=(and) 61695
8 Set gprm(9) *=(mul) 256
9 Set gprm(10) +=(add) gprm(9)
10 Set gprm(9) =(mov) sprm(2:Sub-picture stream number)
11 Set gprm(9) &=(and) 127
12 Set gprm(10) &=(and) 65280
13 Set gprm(10) +=(add) gprm(9)
14 (CallSS) Call the VMGM PGC 1, resume cell 1
********** cell commands:



Playback time: 00:22:47.25 (at 30 fps)
PG Playback mode: sequential
PUOs: 0 (0x00000000)
NextPGCN: 0
PrevPGCN: 0
GoUpPGCN: 0
PGC Still Time: 0
Audio stream 1 status: 0x00008000 (stream=0)
Audio stream 2 status: 0x00008200 (stream=2)
Subpic stream 1 status: 0x80000000 (streams for 4:3=0, wide=0, letterbox=0, pan&scan=0)
Subpic stream 2 status: 0x81000000 (streams for 4:3=1, wide=0, letterbox=0, pan&scan=0)
Subpic stream 3 status: 0x83000000 (streams for 4:3=3, wide=0, letterbox=0, pan&scan=0)
Subpic stream 4 status: 0x84000000 (streams for 4:3=4, wide=0, letterbox=0, pan&scan=0)
Subpic stream 5 status: 0x86000000 (streams for 4:3=6, wide=0, letterbox=0, pan&scan=0)
Subpic stream 6 status: 0x88000000 (streams for 4:3=8, wide=0, letterbox=0, pan&scan=0)

BOVs Chap. Prog. Cell Type Seam- Ang VOBU Cell Cell Playback End Entry First Last Last VOB Cell
(PTT) Flags less Still Still Cmd. Time Time VOBU ILVU VOBU VOBU ID ID
Joint Time # sector End Start End

? 1 1 1 2 no - no 0 0 00:00:40.00 00:00:40.00 0 0 6994 7021 1 1
? 2 2 2 8 yes - no 0 0 00:09:31.12 00:10:11.12 7022 0 115747 115767 1 2
? 3 3 3 8 yes - no 0 0 00:11:53.08 00:22:04.20 115768 0 250677 250706 1 3
? 4 4 4 8 yes - no 0 0 00:00:41.25 00:22:46.15 250707 0 258388 258415 1 4
? 5 5 5 2 no - no 0 0 00:00:01.10 00:22:47.25 258416 0 258448 258462 1 5


Sorry for being too long. I promisse to clean the message as soon as I get any reply (to keep the room neat). Answer only if you have the patience and the time. :thanks:

[Garambone]

As I opened a new project I got this message:

Error sourcing /Tcl/work/PGCEDIT/PgcEdit.tcl: invalid command name "it"
(THE 4400_S2_D3) 1 %

Despite the error message I am allowed to carry on with the project as usual.

Any clue?

[r0lZ]

Hum, I can't understand the Time Map problem with the logs only. Can you send me your IFOs? pgcedit [at] scarlet [dot] be

For the error message, try this:
Do not open the DVD at startup. Use the menu File -> Open DVD to open it (not the toolbar icon!)
When the error occur, you should see in the dialog a "Details >>>" button. Click on it, and copy the full message. Do not close PgcEdit. Paste the message here. You can also send me the IFOs if you wish. Thanks.

[BigCondor]

I had just tried to clean sub pgcs with the new version.
There are 24 vts in the dvd. After manually changed some lines I use the Delete uncalled PGCs function. After a while it
said this function will try to DELETE 311 PGCs from the DVD! Then it said there are some VM commands using the SPRM 4,5,6 or 10 and asked me if I want to continue. I replied no and the command containing the VM commands were shown in a box:- (There were 3 altogether and this was one of them)

VTSM 24, LU1(en),1 (0:00) RootM '<uncalled>' - pre command 5:
Set gprm(0)=(mov) sprm(5:Title number in VTS)

When I goto the RootM of VTSM 24 by clicking the program on the left, strange thing happened, it jumped to VMGM, LU1(en), 22 (dummy). But the content on the right belongs to that of VTSM 24, LU1(en),1 (0:00) RootM.
If I click on the 2nd pgc in VTSM24 and use the arrow to move to the root there is no problem. But if I directly click on it then it will jump to pgc22 of VMGM. This did not happen before I try to 'Delete uncalled PGCs'. Here are the commands of the root M of VTS 24.

1 NOP
2 NOP
3 Set gprm(6) =(mov) 0
4 NOP
5 Set gprm(0) =(mov) sprm(5:Title number in VTS)
6 Set gprm(0) *=(mul) 256
7 Set gprm(0) |=(or) sprm(7:Chapter number (or PGN))
8 NOP
9 NOP
10 NOP
11 NOP
12 NOP
13 NOP
14 NOP
15 NOP
16 NOP
17 if ( gprm(0) >= 25957 ) then { Goto line 21 }
18 Set gprm(2) =(mov) 13
19 (JumpSS) Jump to VMGM PGC 6
20 NOP
21 NOP
22 RSM

There were 3 instances that had reported issue but this is the only one that has the problem. I could goto others as usual.

[r0lZ]

I've just fixed this bug. It is not related to the SPRM warning. Just a GUI bug. The next beta will be released soon...

[BigCondor]

Thanks, then I can continue along...

[r0lZ]

Yes, but remember that the SPRM warning is important. PgcEdit cannot delete the uncalled PGCs and be sure to keep the navigation intact if this warning is displayed. You must understand the implications of the SPRMs and probably fix the navigation manually! If you are a beginner, do not continue! And be sure to create an incremental backup first!

Read the excellent guide (http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/pgcedit_guide/remapping/PgcEdit_Advanced_Functions.htm) by blutach for more info.

[BigCondor]

Thanks for the advice, I'd done this before manually and I want to see what the new program can be of help. I've already burnt the project, I just want to try things out.

I'll revise the guide to see what steps I've missed.

[blutach]

This is - or was - the "pink root menu bug" mentioned in post 4. :)

Where you get this warning about SPRMs, I'd find out if the offending SPRM is ever set. If the only place is in an uncalled PGC itself, then I don't suppose it is an issue (someone correct me if I am wrong). If, however, there are other places, then you need to tread warily.

Regards

[BigCondor]

I think these settings are for various jumps to other titles, since all other titles except the main have been removed(blanked with VobBlanker) so it is quite save to replace them with nops.

When I look at post 4 again and it's almost the same as what I encounter.

[r0lZ]

If the only place is in an uncalled PGC itself, then I don't suppose it is an issue (someone correct me if I am wrong).Of course, you're right. PgcEdit should test that also, but it's not easy, and IMO this case is rare. Anyway, you can manually remove the offending commands as long as they are in PGCs marked as uncalled, and call the Remove Uncalled PGCs function again.

[r0lZ]

Beta 4 is here (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/pgcedit/beta/).

I have hopefully fixed all problems reported so far.

I have also modified the video attributes of the menu domains to leave them unset (at zero) until a VOB file is imported or created, and to reset them to 0 when a menu or its VOB file is deleted. This part was not easy, and I have modified many things. I hope I haven't introduced new bugs. If you have some time, please test it carefully, especially with hybrid PAL/NTSC compilations. Thanks.

[BigCondor]

Just downloaded beta 4, there is no misbehaviour occured. After changing the commands to nops, the pgcs were cleared beautifully and only the ifos and vob_01 of each VTS were left. Then I did 23 time delete last VTS and the dvd is functioning exactly as expected. Thanks for your effort!

[r0lZ]

Thanks for the positive report. :)

BTW, it should be possible to enhance Delete Uncalled PGCs further by incorporating the complete removal of the useless titlesets, but that requires using the Remap Titlesets function to push them to the end of the DVD, and that function needs to save the DVD. I don't like to do it automatically without the user consent. But I can probably open the Remap Titlesets dialog with the right remapping already preselected, so that the user will have only to accept it, and then delete the last uncalled VTSs easily.
Or I can also replace completely the whole uncalled VTSs by a single Title with only a black 10KB VOB cell. That will speed up the VOB cleaning process with FixVTS or VobBlanker. (The crappy ARccOS protected VTSs will therefore be cleaned also automatically, even if they are not at the end of the DVD, but I'm not sure it's very useful, as ARccOS can be cleaned by other tools like RipIt4Me.)

[BigCondor]

Maybe you can further develop the delete last VTS command by continuing to delete until the user halts, then I can delete all 23 titleset in a single command.

[r0lZ]

Well, that's not so simple, as it is possible that some uncalled VTS are not at the end of the DVD, and/or that the Title numbers are not in the right order. Therefore I cannot delete those VTSs without remapping the title numbers and the VTSs first. And as remapping the VTSs requires saving the DVD, it's potentially dangerous.

Anyway, I'm working on it... :)

[r0lZ]

Beta 5 is available at the usual place (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/pgcedit/beta/).

I have improved the Delete Uncalled PGCs function. It is now possible to delete the uncalled PGCs that are alone in a titleset after the first pass. The titlesets and title numbers are remapped automatically if necessary, and the useless titlesets are deleted completely (but the VOB files are moved to the backup folder, just in case.) Several incremental backups are made automatically during the operation.

Of course, it is still not possible to delete the last Title in a VTS if the menu of that VTS is called by the VMG, as the menu must be kept. In this case, its Title number is pushed at the end of the Title Play Map table, so that the lowest Title numbers are used by the called, useful Titles. You can however manually blank the uncalled titleset if you wish, to regain some disc space or clean the ARccOS crap.

@blutach: Sorry, you will have to modify your guide (http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/pgcedit_guide/remapping/PgcEdit_Advanced_Functions.htm)!
(BTW, I have also modified slightly the first dialog.)
Edit: Also, the title of the guide is "How to use PgcEdit’s Remapping and Restoring Functions", but the title in the titlebar of the web browser is different. Not very important though! ;)

[blutach]

I was dreading that! It is already the weekend here though :)

Regards

[dirio49]

Is it possible to mark that pgc that are referenced within themself ( within the same titleset, and not referenced anywhere else)
like:
VTSM 1 LU1 references VTSM 1 LU2, and LU2 does LU3 since these one are in effect unreferenced.

Thanks

[r0lZ]

Why do you need that?

The Go To Calling Command function lists all references to the current PGC, including the references within themself.
But of course, those references must be ignored when the DVD is searched for uncalled PGCs.

Anyway, a menu PGC in a specific LU cannot point to a PGC in another LU of the same domain. Only one LU is active at a time. The active LU is determined by your preferred menu language.

Maybe I don't understand your question well?

[dirio49]

Why do you need that?

The Go To Calling Command function lists all references to the current PGC, including the references within themself.
But of course, those references must be ignored when the DVD is searched for uncalled PGCs.

Anyway, a menu PGC in a specific LU cannot point to a PGC in another LU of the same domain. Only one LU is active at a time. The active LU is determined by your preferred menu language.

Maybe I don't understand your question well?


Forget it, i was having a brain fart.
I was thinking that assuming the Pgcedit knows that the pgc in never played(visited during playback), and also referenced only with in itself. if these condition are true then the pgc that is referenced within itself would be trully useless because it is never play.

Sorry for the confusion.:D

[BigCondor]

Just downloaded beta 5 and tested. With a dvd of 6 VTS I changed all external calls to VTS_02 and used delete uncalled pgcs. After a series of Q/A the VTS was moved to the bottom and removed. And after running FixVTS to blank out some stuffs the dvd is ready to burn, nice and neat.

Thanks for the qood work!

[r0lZ]

@ BigCondor: :)

@ dirio49:
There is a difference between uncalled PGCs and never-played PGCs.

The Delete Uncalled PGCs function doesn't test if a PGC can be played, but only if it is called by a VM command from another PGC that is called, or if it can be called with the remote. The function removes (virtually) the VM commands and Next/Prev/GoUpPGCN links of all uncalled PGCs, and repeat that until no more uncalled PGCs are found. It doesn't simulate the playback. Therefore, if a PGC is called only by a VM command that cannot be executed (for example because its condition cannot be true), that PGC will not be removed, although it is useless. To find and remove those never-played PGCs, you have to analyze the navigation (with the help of the trace), and edit or remove the VM commands yourself before using Delete Uncalled PGCs.

BTW, there is a drawback of my method. For example, if you use the Jump To PGC Upon DVD Insert function (say to jump directly to the main menu), many PGCs will probably never be played. However, since Jump to PGC leaves the original commands in place, those skipped PGCs are still called, and they will not be removed. I'll try to improve the Jump to PGC function a bit, as it is possible to remove automatically the original commands of the FP-PGC if (and only if) the FP-PGC is never called. In this case, it should be possible to remove all bypassed PGCs with Delete Uncalled PGCs, although not in all cases.

Also, a common authoring method to call a title is to define a VMGM dummy with a lot of jumps to Titles with conditions, and init a GPRM before calling that PGC to jump to the right title. Most of the time, those PGCs have jumps to all titles of the DVD, and PgcEdit cannot determine if some of them are never executed. I cannot handle this case without simulating the playback.

[BigCondor]

In that case I'll check carefully when using the function if I had changed the destination. Generally, such titles are mostly trailers of other films and in most cases they are unwanted materials and are most likely deleted (or made isolated) before using Delete Uncalled Pgcs. Others are generally callable from a menu so they are not likely deleted by Delete Uncalled Pgcs. Anyway, I think it is a good practice to test virtually with trace and run thru the dvd as a check out to make sure everything is functioning as expected.

[r0lZ]

Beta 6 (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/pgcedit/beta/).

As explained in my previous post, after using the Jump to PGC function, the bypassed PGCs were never considered as uncalled, because the original commands of the FP-PGC were kept anyway.
I have therefore modified Jump2PGC to remove them when the FP-PGC is never called directly. It should now be possible to delete the bypassed PGCs automatically with the new Delete uncalled PGCs function (unless they are called by another PGC that is still called.)

Also, when I've re-read my code, I've found another little problem with the Jump to PGC function. A GPRM is used to bypass the original pre-commands of some bypassed PGCs, and jump directly to the target. But when a free GPRM is available, it is not initialized in the FP-PGC. Its value is therefore 0. When a title PGC is modified, that GPRM is tested, and if its value is still 0, the nav is redirected to the target. In the target, the GPRM is modified to be non-zero, so that, when the title is called again, the commands added by the function are bypassed, and the title is played normally.
The problem with this method is that, if the title is called directly from the exit domain (when the DVD is not playing) with the player's function to call a title by its number, all GPRMs are cleared first. Therefore, the title was not played, and the navigation was redirected to the target PGC of the Jump2PGC function.
I have therefore modified the Jump2PGC method. Now, the target PGC is initialized with a non-zero value in the first-play PGC, and the test in the pre-commands of the title is inverted: the nav is now redirected to the target of Jump2PGC if the GPRM has the value used to initialize it in the FP-PGC. In the target PGC, the GPRM is forced back to 0. This way, it is (theoretically) possible to play the title directly from the exit domain with the remote.
I hope I haven't introduced new bugs, as this function is rather complex. Please test your DVD carefully if you use the modified Jump2PGC function!

Nothing has been changed in the Delete Uncalled PGCs function since beta 5.

[BigCondor]

I had never tried to use the Jump2PGC function. I do this manually. I think each DVD should be treated differently since they are not authored in the same manner. And in most cases, I have to change some codes regarding language and subtitles (mostly adding Chinese subtitles) so that my new subtitle can be set as pre-selected without being masked off (when there were only 2 subtitles in the DVD, most likely it will be masked to 64 or 65). Since I had been programming in assembly language in the apple ][ ages, I have little trouble with that.

[blutach]

A beta a day r0lZ ... :)

Great stuff.

Regards

[r0lZ]

Yes, blu! And yet another one: Beta 7 (http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/pgcedit/beta/).

It is now possible to launch the preview from the remapping GUI by double-clicking on an entry in the listbox. (Available for DVD -> Remap Titlesets, Domain -> Remap PGCs in domain, and Title -> Remap Title numbers.)
Thanks to Foxace, who has suggested this improvement, via PM. :thanks:

@ BigCondor:
I have also programmed in assembly in the eighties, on a Commodore 64. IIRC, it used the same processor than the Apple II, the CMOS 6502 (8 bits!)

[blutach]

Yes, the 6502/10. Was fun optimising code in such a small RAM. :)

Regards

[setarip_old]

As I noted in another post (at another forum), The 6502, created by Motorola, was introduced in 1975. It was a great chip, used to give Atari its early success in both standalone game machines (The "VCS" or "2600") and the Atari 400 and 800 computers. It was also used in the Apple][.Initially (in 1979/80), the really great fun was programming for the VCS/2600 using the "Computer Magic" programming cartridge (It cost $50, which, back then, was quite substantial. I still have it - and have been offered upwards of $1,000 for it) to enter "Fetch" and "Store" commands via the dual keypads (that were bundled together with the separately purchased "B.A.S.I.C." cartridge). Of course, at that time, there was no way to save your work, unless you were willing to re-wire the VCS/2600 so that it could output to a tape recorder (And I wasn't, for fear that, if I blew it, my son would never forgive me) - Ah, fond memories ;>}

[blutach]

$1,000! I've got (what I guess is) a fully working C64 portable with a teensy weensy screen somewhere with fast loader cartridge too. I thought it might be worth about 25 cents :D

Regards

[setarip_old]

@blutach

What I've described pre-dates the creation of the Commodore...

BTW - The initial 6502 chip, used in the Atari 2600/VCS game machine, was a 4 bit processor. The 6502C, used in both the Atari 400/800 and Apple ][ computers was an 8 bit processor - which also pre-dates the 6510 chip which I believe was used in the Commodore...

**EDIT** Now that I think of it, I believe the Commodore VIC20 (as advertised by William Shatner) also used the 6502C - but it was introduced about 1 year after the Atari 400/800...

[r0lZ]

The VIC-20 was based on a 6502, and the 64 on a 6510. Both are 8 bits processors, but the 6510 was able to address 64KB of pure RAM, plus the ROM and the IO registers with the bank switching technique, hence the fabulous amount of RAM available in the 64! ;)

[setarip_old]

@r0lZ

The Atari 400/800, using the 6502C, also utilized bank switching ;>}

[jsoto]

Guys, you're very old men... :D :D
Now, if you want, we can discuss about black&white TVs, using lamps instead of transistors, and when the color was born.
jsoto

EDIT:
I was very proud when I coded my "indirect jump" in 6805 because this chip didn't have an indirect Jump instruction. What I did is to modify the code of a simple jump directly RAM, just the operand part of the JMP. Everything encapsulated in a macro...

I'm also very old...

[setarip_old]

Guys, you're very old men...Thanks so much for the reminder!

I remember when I was speaking to Babbage's daughter...

[BigCondor]

Suddenly we were back to nostalgia, just reminds me of my first hand on computer... even without DOS, save projects on cassette tapes. And it is funny to enter those machine codes like A2, E8... to test out programmes without compiling.

@jsoto
Have you ever been shocked when doing projects on tubes? I was afraid of getting electric shocks so most of my porjects were on transisters (and later ttls).

Ha ha, we are all old men!

[r0lZ]

Guys, you're very old men... :D :D
Now, if you want, we can discuss about black&white TVs, using lamps instead of transistors, and when the color was born.Have a look at my high-tech radio:
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6313/concertinoma1.th.jpg (http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=concertinoma1.jpg)
(BTW, the sound is great!)

[Sir Didymus]

I have also programmed in assembly in the eighties, on a Commodore 64. IIRC, it used the same processor than the Apple II, the CMOS 6502 (8 bits!)

Me too! on the lovely Apple II...
Never an off topic branching was nicer!
Apple II was my first PC...
I arranged a nice travel in USA, from Italy, in 1984 (or it was 85 ?) to buy it...

Saved up money largely compensated both flight and accomodation costs... :D

[setarip_old]

@r0lZ

That radio is absolutely beautiful! Is it shortwave as well as AM?