MSU Lossless Video Codecs Comparison - 2007 published! [Archive]

DmitriyV2

14th November 2006, 15:03

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CALL FOR LOSSLESS VIDEO CODECS
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LAST NEWS: 130 pages of comparison is ready.
Comparison URL is:
http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/lossless_codecs_2007_en.html

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Old message:

We are close to update our old comparison of lossless video codecs (see http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/index_en.html ). We are looking for the new lossless video codecs or competitive video codecs which were not included in the existing comparison document. We are interested in general-purpose codecs right now (e.g. screen capture codecs is out of scope of this comparison). It is planned to compare codecs within "video capture&editing" and "maximum compression" areas.

Currently we are aware of the following codecs:

1. Alpary
2. AVIzlib
3. CamStudio GZIP
4. CorePNG
5. FFV1 ffdshow
6. GLZW
7. HuffYUV
8. Lagarith
9. LEAD JPEG
10. LOCO
11. MindVid
12. MSUlab
13. PicVideo JPEG
14. VBLE
15. Arithyuv
16. Sheervideo
17. FastCodec
18. x264 lossless

Please let us know about other good lossless codecs by replaying this message.

You can add link to Compression-links catalog also:
http://www.compression-links.info/Lossless_Video_Codecs

Thank you!

movax

14th November 2006, 15:51

Hmm, my memory's a bit fuzzy on this one, but I think the YV12 version of Huffy (HuffyYV12/Huffyv12?) is distinct from the original. Then again, it's me and my drunken memory at work. ;)

<-- Interested in seeing how FFV1 fares. Great for dumping files too before x264/XviD, but a royal pain in the ass to edit/work with.

KoD

14th November 2006, 16:38

There's also a codec named LZOCodec on the second page of this forum section.

DmitriyV2

14th November 2006, 18:15

There's also a codec named LZOCodec on the second page of this forum section.
Looks like this is screen capture codec.

And interesting - on home page http://usuarios.lycos.es/LZOCodec/ they compare in "COMPARATIVE CHART:" LZOCodec with MSU Screen Capture Codec (and LZOCodec was better only on Real Video Test), but did not compare with MSU Lossless Codec, that is design for real video. :)

Ok, we can compare it with codecs, designed for real video, if you think this is correct.

Inventive Software

14th November 2006, 18:26

It's for both screen capture and video, so video comparing would be nice. :) I'm after something very fast and compresses fairly well that I can use to record F1 races next year, and this is the perfect opportunity IMO!

akupenguin

14th November 2006, 20:54

I would like to propose FFVHuff and Snow. Both are part of ffmpeg, and presumably in ffdshow.

TEB

14th November 2006, 21:15

Rememeber to test Lagarith 1.3.11

DmitriyV2

14th November 2006, 21:55

2 TEB: Sure, Lagarith is already in list. We will check last version on site before test.

2 akupenguin: AFAIR we has some technical problems with ffmpeg during last test. Can we ask you in case of problems?

2 Inventive Software: Ok, we will include LZOCodec.

akupenguin

14th November 2006, 22:18

You can ask me about ffmpeg, libavcodec, and mencoder. But if any problems turn out to be ffdshow's fault, I can't help.

zambelli

15th November 2006, 00:47

Also, make sure both progressive and interlaced sources are tested. This is particularly important for 12-bit YUV (YV12, IYUV, I420) lossless codecs where there's plenty of room for chroma mapping ambiguity.

shark37

15th November 2006, 22:41

Hope, this one might be useful

Lossless compressed Codecs test inkl. ffdshow (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=73802)

DmitriyV2

16th November 2006, 12:14

2 akupenguin: Thanks. When 2-4 codecs are tested commonly everything is ok, but for 20 codecs installation sometimes we have pretty strange situations (sometimes due to mind switching throw different codecs interfaces logic).

2 zambelli: Good idea. Maybe we will use it not this time, but good.

2 shark37: We will use this comparison (http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/lossless_codecs_en.html) as reference, but thanks anyway!

Zarxrax

16th November 2006, 22:04

Can you please test speed of the codecs as well? Both compression and decompression speed please. Many lossless codecs dont aim only to have the most compression, but to have good speed as well. Many users of lossless codecs also consider speed to be a very important aspect of the codec too.

shark37

17th November 2006, 21:37

2 shark37: We will use this comparison (http://www.compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/lossless_codecs_en.html) as reference, but thanks anyway!

Ok, I see again that you like to teach much more than to learn :D
If you take a look at the a/m link you will find one more codec inside.

Here is another proven codecs inventory: Alf <...> VideoCODECs Collection (http://codec.kiev.ua/)
See "Lossless Codecs" section

Hurry up -- this site quite unstable.

sh0dan

18th November 2006, 17:25

It would be really useful, if you also included a performance measurement.

vsv

18th November 2006, 18:20

"visually" lossless Cineform Prospect HD wavelet 10 bit.
www.cineform.com

DmitriyV2

24th November 2006, 19:23

2 shark37: We will include codec only after direct vote for it. (To test usefull codecs).

2 sh0dan: Yes, we plan to measure compression time (if it will be possible to automate this measurement). In case of problems with automation we will post problem description here (maybe solution will be not so hard).

2 vsv: We will test only fully lossless codecs, lossy codecs testing is task for another type of comparison. Thanks for link anyway.

MiroLx

26th November 2006, 08:05

Hello.

I would like to announce new lossless codec which I have just finished. It is called MLC, homepage is www.linek.sk/mlc.
It would be nice if you can add it to your comparison, Dimitriy.

DmitriyV2

26th November 2006, 15:17

Ok! Please confirm - MLC fully lossless only in YUY2?

MiroLx

26th November 2006, 16:26

Yes YUY2 lossless, RGB24 conversion from 24 to 16 bit, so lossy. YV12 not supported in this version.

Zarxrax

26th November 2006, 23:37

For the comparison, can you use at least one anime/cartoon source? It would be interesting to see if the large areas of flat color cause a change in the results. Also I noticed that most of your test clips from the first comparison were very short, I assume to test different types of video on each codec. It would be interesting if you also combined a lot of the clips into a single video and see how that performs, at least to have one fairly long clip.

DmitriyV2

27th November 2006, 09:34

2 MiroLx: Ok.

2 Zarxrax:
1. Some lossless codecs are very slow, unfortunatelly.
2. Commonly lossless codecs are very stable (in terms of compression ratio depend upon video noise level). So if you know results on short video with different noise - you can predict codecs results on your own video.

(Noise level === small detailes level, so after lossy compression you will receive lower level on lower bitrate.)

DmitriyV2

27th November 2006, 23:57

Codecs list. Part 1

Please let us know if this version is not last or something wrong in parameters!

Alparysoft Lossless Video Codec v2.0 build 957.040607
Alparysoft R&D Ltd http://www.alparysoft.ru/

Interface: vfw DirectShow

Color Spaces Lossless
RGB32 = yes
YUV12 = yes
YUY2 = yes

Parameters:
encoding:
lossless compensation On
enable prediction On
compression Max
SSE acceleration:
enable on

Comment:
Free registration is needed for the company logo removal.

AVIzlib v2.2.3 Kenji Oshima

Color Spaces Lossless
Measure after decompress in VD:
RGB32 = yes

Compress Mode: Hi Compress
Video Format(24bit Only): RGB24

Comment:
Web site is only for japanies. Fails in VQMT. In VD and WMP plays normally.

CamStudio Lossless Codec GZIP mode v1.0 RenderSoft Software http://www.rendersoftware.com/ (?)

RGB32 = yes

Algorithm for Compression: GZIB
Level: 9

Broken link on the web site.

CorePNG v0.8.2 Jory Stone
http://www.corecodec.org/projects/corepng/

Color Spaces Lossless:
RGB32 = yes
YUV12 = yes
YUY2 = yes

Compression Level: 9
Enable Delta-Frames (unstable): On
Auto Delta-Frames: On
Keyframe Interval: 31
PNG Compression Filters:
Subtract: On
Up: On
Average: On
Paeth: On
None Filter: On
All Filters: On
No Filters: Off

Problems with site. Looks like http://corecodec.org/projects/corepng/ is down now.

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Please let us know if noted version is not last or something wrong in parameters!

foxyshadis

28th November 2006, 06:41

Camstudio is obtainable from: http://www.camstudio.org/
Although the maintainer currently recommends MSU Screen Lossless instead. (There was also a commercial version by rendersoft/ehelp, but they were bought out by macromedia and subsumed into adobe. It was a hack job anyway, according to the site.)

RBF

28th November 2006, 09:42

http://mediatory.ru/article9_article_50_1.phtml

movmasty

29th November 2006, 02:19

MSU Lossless Video Codec seems interesting, someone tested it?

a little slow, ~15fps vs 90 of picvid, but i always use filters when converting from dvd,before to compress in xvid, so obtaining 15fps with picvid,
maybe doing so msu wont be slower, didnt test with filters yet.

Compression is great, it use delta frames, an may use denoise too, compression is better than lossy mjpg full quality, similar to mjpg with 2% compression.

Dmitriy, all your filters and codecs are quite slow, depends because are free??

and, does the denoising in compression codec can substitute the denoise msu filter(good filter also slow)

DmitriyV2

29th November 2006, 13:01

2 foxyshadis: We did not planing now to test screen capture codecs but any external test using our MSU Screen Capture Codec (the best by our mesurements and external measurements) will be very interesting.

2 RBF: Thanks!

MSU Lossless Video Codec seems interesting, someone tested it?
Compression is great, it use delta frames, an may use denoise too, compression is better than lossy mjpg full quality, similar to mjpg with 2% compression.
Thanks! :)

Dmitriy, all your filters and codecs are quite slow, depends because are free??
We did not do they slow specially :) and I in every way try to encourage filters speed up. But commonly our guys prefer to join to commercial projects of Lab and I spend serious energies to move them to fix at least obvious bugs later (when they work under another topics).
But anyway we are only one university multimedia lab in the world, that publish at least preliminary results as a working filters (and working codecs) as rule and for free. This is not ideal way but we try to do at least this things.

and, does the denoising in compression codec can substitute the denoise msu filter(good filter also slow)
Yes, they are based on the same code of denoising maybe with small differences. We have denoising filters family with different speed-quality tradeoff, but for companies.

DmitriyV2

1st December 2006, 01:49

Codecs list. Part 2

Please let us know if this version is not last or something wrong in parameters!

Snow 06.08.02 rev 127.
Non-lossless in RGB and YUY2.
Snow from ffdShow 06.08.02 rev 127.

Parameters/Presets Default Max compression Fast
IQuality 100 100 100
Maximum I frame interval 300 300 300
4 MV On On Off
Iterative Motion Estimation Off On Off
ME compare function SAD, Chroma on SAD, Chroma on SAD, Chroma off
SAD SAD SAD
SAD SAD SAD
Subpixel ME compare functin Off SAD Off
Macroblock compare function SAD
IQpel refinement quality 8

Question from our guys: Is it possible to make it lossless in RGB and YUY2?

//////////////////////////////////

HuffYuv 2.2.1
Lossless in all RGB, YUV12 and YUY2.
HuffYuv 2.2.1 (RGB) and one from ffdShow rev 06.11.27 rev 589.

Parameters/Presets Max compression Fast
Predictor Median (Gradient for RGB) Left
Adaptive Huffman Tables On Off
//////////////////////////////////

FFV1 rev 06.11.27 rev 589.
Lossless in all RGB, YUV12 and YUY2.
FFV1 from ffdShow rev 06.11.27 rev 589.

Parameters/Presets Max compression Fast
Coder type AC VLC
Context Large Small
Keyframes 300 300

///////////////////////////////////

Lagarith v1.3.12
Lossless in all RGB, YUV12 and YUY2.

Parameters/Presets Default Fast
Enable Null Frames On On
Use multithreading Off On
///////////////////////////////////

FastCodec v1.0b
Lossless in RGB and YUY2.

Parameters/Presets Default
RGB formats compression Absolutely lossless

//////////////////////////////////

LOCO 0.2
Lossless in all RGB, YUV12 and YUY2.
Parameters\Presets Default
Max Loss Per Pixel 0
//////////////////////////////////

We have problems with Lead MJPEG and Lead MJPEG2000. Lead MJPEG has bugs in lossless mode and both resize the frame and add watermark in the evaluation version.

Any suggestions? (I wrote several time to Lead previously without answer).

jjack

1st December 2006, 04:41

I think MFZ0 codec also nice.

DmitriyV2

1st December 2006, 06:29

I think MFZ0 codec also nice.

This codec is oriented commonly on screen capture, do you think it's ok?

And where is it's official page?

(There is no reasons to collect all codecs in the world, it's resonable to collect at least updated and supported :). This is not so good situation to find that you cannot decompress your video collection on AMD or in XP Home and recompress it.)

zambelli

1st December 2006, 09:16

HuffYuv 2.2.1 (RGB) and one from ffdShow rev 06.11.27 rev 589.
What about the vanilla 2.1.1 version? I've always found that one to be more stable and faster than the newer versions.

akupenguin

2nd December 2006, 00:44

Snow 06.08.02 rev 127.
Question from our guys: Is it possible to make it lossless in RGB and YUY2? No, Snow is only YV12.

Parameters/Presets Default Max compression Fast
Quality 100 100 100
Maximum I frame interval 300 300 300
4 MV Off On Off
Iterative Motion Estimation Off On Off
ME compare function SSD+chroma SSD SAD
Subpixel ME compare functin SSD+chroma SSD SAD
Macroblock compare function SSD+chroma SSD SSD
QPel On On Off
Reference frames 2 4 1
Note: iterative ME doesn't support chroma ME. I don't know if Reference frames is accessible in ffdshow.

Lossless in all RGB, YUV12 and YUY2.
HuffYuv 2.2.1 (RGB) and one from ffdShow rev 06.11.27 rev 589.

More explicitly:
HuffYuv 2.2.1 (RGB, YUY2)
Parameters/Presets Max compression Fast
Predictor Median (Gradient for RGB) Left
Color decorrelation (On for RGB) (On for RGB)

HuffYuv from FFDshow 06.11.27 rev 589 (YUY2, YV12)
Parameters/Presets Max compression Fast
Predictor Median Gradient
Adaptive Huffman Tables On Off
Note: Left is not faster than Gradient. Both take a negligible amount of math, while Gradient provides lower bitrate and so less time munging the bits. The only reason to use Left prediction would be interlaced content. (I don't know if this also applies to 2.2.1)
And I don't see a need for testing a Fast preset here, but do as you wish.

FFV1 rev 06.11.27 rev 589.
OK.

DmitriyV2

7th December 2006, 12:27

2 akupenguin: big thanks!

Codecs list. Part 3

Please let us know if this version is not last or something wrong in parameters!

PicVideo Lossless JPEG v2.10.0.29
Pegasus Imaging Corporation
Losless in RGB.

Only one preset ( with one option ):
Compress RGB using lossless pseudo YCrCb ON.

Arithyuv v1.1.1
Lossless in YUY2.

There are no any parameters for compression modes.

x264 rev 604
Lossless in YUV12.

Default preset: --qp 0 --keyint 300 .
Max compression: --qp 0 --ref 8 --keyint 300 --partitions all --subme 7 --me esa --mixed-refs .
Fast: --qp 0 --keyint 300 --threads 2 .

LZO v0.4
Lossless in YUV12

Parameters / Preset Default Max Compression
Compression Algorithm LZO RTPPM
Key Frames 64 300.

Also one more question about Snow: which should be value in Qpel refinement quality for default preset?

DmitriyV2

7th December 2006, 12:29

What about the vanilla 2.1.1 version? I've always found that one to be more stable and faster than the newer versions.
Thay have the same compression ratio AFAIR and pretty similar speed.

akupenguin

7th December 2006, 20:37

x264 rev 604
Max compression: --qp 0 --ref 8 --keyint 300 --partitions all --subme 7 --me esa --mixed-refs
lossless mode only goes up to subme=6. (There's no penalty in specifying 7, but it doesn't add anything either.)
Regardless of whether you're officially comparing speeds at the max compression setting, if you even report the speeds then use me=umh instead of me=esa.
If you want a setting optimized for decoding speed, then add --no-cabac to Fast.

Also one more question about Snow: which should be value in Qpel refinement quality for default preset?
8

DmitriyV2

20th December 2006, 21:03

Our tests are in progress now... I'l update situation

System25

28th December 2006, 11:19

There is another codec called Fastcodec (but does not compress very much)

http://videosoft.org/codecs/fastcodec/

And I'm developing a new codec called RTCodec wich is lossless in YUV12. It's still under development because it compress worse than LZOCodec screen captured or computer generated videos. But it can compress better Real videos.

So I can email you a "test version" if you want to test it.

Greetings.

System25

28th December 2006, 11:40

I have found another one that says to be better than MSU.

http://www.yuvsoft.com/download/lossless-codec/index.html

DmitriyV2

31st December 2006, 00:35

I have found another one that says to be better than MSU.
http://www.yuvsoft.com/download/lossless-codec/index.html
Thanks for this link!

Most codecs (including yuvsoft's) are already measured now, we are on stage of report preparation (process will be a little frozen during selebrations 1-7 January).

Also we are invite comparison reviewers (reviewers will received report approx. 3 weeks before publication in exchange for review). All codecs authors of course are invited to be reviewers.

Maxim.Smirnov

28th February 2007, 16:41

Also we are invite comparison reviewers (reviewers will received report approx. 3 weeks before publication in exchange for review). All codecs authors of course are invited to be reviewers.

The complete draft is ready at last! We are looking for reviewers. Please let us know if you would like to review the document and we will provide you an URL for it to download. All your assistance will be acknowledged in the final document.

Thanks in advance for any help :thanks:

--
Best regards,
Maxim
http://www.compression.ru/

Zarxrax

1st March 2007, 00:03

I would be glad to review it.

DmitriyV2

5th March 2007, 23:10

As was wrote - now comparison is ready and it has 130 page with huge amount of measurements results (this is the reason of so long preparation process).

If you want to be a beta reviewer - please let us know.

WorBry

6th March 2007, 10:53

Come on guys, hurry up with the review :) I've got nigh-on 500GB of archived deinterlaced/denoised 50p home video, currently in FFDShow-YV12, that I'm looking to condense further. Given the time it took to encode, I cant bear to commit it solely to x264 or XviD. From my own little comparison of available LC's I'd more or less settled on FFV1, until I just saw this:

http://www.yuvsoft.com/download/lossless-codec/index.html

I see System25 has already mentioned it in this thread:

I have found another one that says to be better than MSU.

http://www.yuvsoft.com/download/lossless-codec/index.html

But does anyone know anything about the nature of this codec - true or pseudo-lossless?

DmitriyV2

6th March 2007, 11:05

http://www.yuvsoft.com/download/lossless-codec/index.html
But does anyone know anything about the nature of this codec - true or pseudo-lossless?
It was included into our comparison. It's lossless. Full comparison available only for reviewers now. :) You can help us to publish it faster with 3-4 comparison remarks/bugreports.

WorBry

6th March 2007, 11:57

Not sure I understand your last comment:

:) You can help us to publish it faster with 3-4 comparison remarks/bugreports.

Are you suggesting that I do my own little comparison and post the results ??

Hmmm, just noted the small-print on the download page:

CAUTION: the codec is constantly being changed and only backward compatibility may be expected from future versions.

There again, since its a stand-alone codec I guess that doesnt present much of an issue, as long as it remains free :D

smok3

6th March 2007, 14:50

YUVsoft gets 1fps on 720x576 pal material (dual-core opteron 170), pretty useless for any intermediates...

WorBry

6th March 2007, 14:56

YUVsoft gets 1fps on 720x576 pal material (dual-core opteron 170), pretty useless for any intermediates...

What about decoding speed? Guess I better try it for myself this evening.

Edit: Yeah, I'm getting around 1fps too. Decoding is slow also. Far too slow for my needs. Still it will be interesting to see what the 'big comparison' concludes.

DmitriyV2

7th March 2007, 08:24

Not sure I understand your last comment:
Are you suggesting that I do my own little comparison and post the results ??
We publish results after reviewing only (to decrease number of questions and errors). I suggest to be a reviewer (looks like lossless codecs are less popular than H.264 for example, so we have only 3 reviewers now.) And of course all reviewers names will be noted in comparison.