Firewire output?

[KenJ]

I would like to be able to view the output of VDub or VDubMod on an external monitor TV via Firewire and an A/D converter -- just like some NLE apps do, such as Adobe Premiere Elements. Has anyone been able to do this?

[KenJ]

Eight days and no reply. Perhaps I can make myself more clear.

There are two great ideas, the marriage of which will have users beating a path to the door of the person or organization that suppies that solution.

1. NLE sends output display simultaneously to Firewire so it can be viewed via A/D converter on an external monitor TV. You get to see *exactly* what your output will look like on a TV set.

2. Freely available AVISynth/VirtualDub filters, since most budget NLEs don't include *serious* filters.

Look, I'll take either of two solutions: VirtualDub(Mod) simultaneous output to Firewire or another well-known NLE that already has Firewire viewing that also supports VDub filters. I have read where Magix has released an editor in Europe that does this but I need NTSC/English.

[Pookie]

All I could think of (and this is UNTESTED, I don't have the hardware). Frameserve from VirtualDub into the following app:


http://www.video2dv.com/index.php?lang=en&page=index


http://www.videohelp.com/virtualdubframeserve.htm


You'd open the tiny vdr.AVI file that VirtualDub's Frame Server creates with Video2DV and it should output to firewire. Purely guessing if this will work. If your system doesn't have the horsepower to frameserve and display to firewire, then save/render your project using Huffyuv or Lagarith and play the resulting file through Video2dv


You can also try the same concept as above, using WAX and FrameServer from http://www.debugmode.com/ . WAX supports Vdub plugins. Both wax and the frameserver are on separate pages for download.

Finally, there's http://www.hlinke.de/Home_e/VDub2RTFX_Plugin/vdub2rtfx_plugin.html which is supposed to allow for Vdub plugins into some Avid and Pinnacle apps. Dunno if either output to Firewire.

[KenJ]

Thanks for the reply, Pookie. I had not tried Video2DV before, so tried frameserving VDubMod into it. It will not pass through the signpost file, even if you do the trick of adding .avi to the filename. No error indication, it just refuses to send the information out Firewire. Interestingly, there are three posts on their forum asking for this very same functionality. I am not the only one looking for this.

I had seen the trick of adding .avi to the signpost file before, since it will work with Magix Movie Edit Pro v11, albeit not smooth at all. Unfortunately unuseable IMO. Adobe Premiere Elements v2 reports an error trying this. Using the Premier AVS plugin also seems unuseable. So far, *frameserving* into these NLE apps does not work well even if I can finally view the file.

The URL for the Pinnacle plugin is a very interesting find! I am disinclined to purchase yet another commercial NLE just to do this. Many Pinnacle users are switching to Premiere Elements just to get stability and, of course, Avid is *way* out of my price range.

I remain convinced that whoever developes this first will generate a lot of interest. I certainly intend to beat the drum on the Elements and Magix MEP forums. I'm still hoping that someone can "tack" on a piece of software that will split the output window of VirtualDub(Mod) to Firewire.

[Pookie]

Another possibility:

http://www.thedeemon.com/VDFilter/

[JohnnyMalaria]

I remain convinced that whoever developes this first will generate a lot of interest. I certainly intend to beat the drum on the Elements and Magix MEP forums. I'm still hoping that someone can "tack" on a piece of software that will split the output window of VirtualDub(Mod) to Firewire.

The "challenge" here is that VirtualDub is GPL. There's no business incentive for any of the commercial NLE houses to do this. So, you are dependent on the open-source community to come up with the solution.

[KenJ]

Incentives? I'll list them:

For commercial NLE, access to over 100 GPL filters.

For VDub community, the ability to see what the output will *really* look like. The ability to see the output on an external monitor was what sold me on Adobe Premiere Elements. Now Magix MEP has it, though not quite as stable.

Thanks, JohnneyM for your kind reply. Ken

[JohnnyMalaria]

For commercial NLE, access to over 100 GPL filters.


And there-in lies the problem.

This is my understanding:

Legally, a commercial NLE cannot be modified to make use of GPL filters that require a GPL framework unless the source code of the commercial NLE is also made available. (i.e., if, say, VDub was a DirectShow-based application and all VDub filters were just DirectShow filters, it wouldn't matter. But if VDub uses a specific architecture that is a fundamentally unique feature of VDub, then an NLE modified to work with VDub filters would be a derivative work of VDub). This is why Avisynth has an exception to GPL.

GPL 2(b): You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License.

The marriage of GPL and proprietary software is a tricky area.

[KenJ]

I am somewhat familiar with GPL. I have a couple of URL's that should be interesting. I don't know how they deal with the GPL. The Pinnacle URL was supplied by Pookie in post #3.

Pinnacle - http://www.hlinke.de/Home_e/VDub2RTFX_Plugin/vdub2rtfx_plugin.html

Magix Video deLuxe 2006/2007 - http://support.magix.net/boards/magix/index.php?showtopic=25830&hl=virtualdub+filters

Perhaps if the plugin is a derivitive of VDub, ...... and then the NLE is derivitive of the derivitive of the filter -- I wonder how that would work <shrug>?

You have an interesting web site, John.

[mustardman]

Getting away from the GPL issues, and back to the techo stuff.

I have used Video2DV version 1.6 with success, but version 2.1 and above fails every time.

I also used to have a copy of version 1.8, but it has taken a snooze. Anyone got a link to a copy of this version?

I must say I didn't read the talk about the GPL with great enthuiasim, but is the problem the use of DirectShow (as opposed to VFW) ?

Cheers,
MM

[KenJ]

I tried frameserving from VirtualDubMod into Video2DV ver 3 and it would not work. I even tried the trick of naming the signpost file as filename.vdr.avi and it still wouldn't work.

Still looking for a solution.

[JohnnyMalaria]

but is the problem the use of DirectShow (as opposed to VFW) ?

Cheers,
MM

I think so.

My understanding of frameservers such as Avisynth is that they act as the handler for files of type '.avi'. When a frameclient opens an avi file, instead of it talking to the OS as normal, it ends up talking to the frameserver. Of course, to do this it has to mimic the OS since the client will be sending requests using well-defined rules - namely, the Video for Windows API. Avisynth, for example, implements all the standard functions that a client may ask for.

But this all assumes that the client is opening the avi file using Video for Windows in the first place.

DirectShow is a different beast and an application that is built around DirectShow will use a totally different means to open the avi file. Specifically, the application will use a DirectShow "file reader filter".

It is possible to create an alternative file reader filter for use with DirectShow that would be used instead of the standard one and, therefore, permit frameserver type behavior - but there's a lot more to doing that than simply 'faking' the Video for Windows routines.