Playback of BOV + 2nd subtitle track possible?

[kumi]

The Japanese R2 release of Gemini (http://www.dvdoutsider.co.uk/dvd/reviews/soseiji.html) features seamless branching (multistory) and Button Over Video (BOV). It's the first time I own a disc with BOV that I've wanted to re-author, but I'm a bit confused about buttons in the title domain...

VTST 2 / TTN 4 contains the main movie, with 7 "BOVs" in subtitle track 2. Each one takes you to a short "white rabbit" clip containing footage of the filming process. This particular title has the English and Japanese subtitle tracks disabled. Unfortunate, because I need English subtitles to understand the Japanese dialog. The only selectable track is the BOV one, Which is turned on by default via a SetSTN pre-command.

Does this mean that it is impossible to display a BOV track simultaneously with a second subtitle track?

Can it be done with forced flags or something else?

[r0lZ]

Yes, you cannot display two subpic tracks at the same time.

IMO, to watch the movie with the English subtitles and the bonuses, you have to duplicate the main movie PGC, and replace the BOV commands by post commands on the previous cell. This way, when you will play that new title, the extra features will be shown anyway. Of course, you have to fix some VM commands to return to the new title instead of the original one after an extra has finished playing. You might also want to modify or create a menu button to call the new title from the menu.
It's feasible, but not really easy.

[kumi]

Thanks r0lZ, that's a good idea.

Time to read up on cell commands! :)

[r0lZ]

Easy.
Just copy the command of the BOV in the cell command area of the PGC, and set the cell command number of the previous cell to point to that command, and don't forget to clear the seamless joint flag (or to set the "layer break?" flag) of the next cell (the one with the BOV.)

For example, if cell 3 has a BOV, copy its command as post-command 1, open the PGC Editor and set a "1" in the cell command field of cell 2, and enable the "layer break?" flag of cell 3.

Repeat the operation for all BOVs.

[blutach]

Of course, this means pre-selecting a button if cells have more than one BOV.

Regards

[r0lZ]

Usually, in a "white rabbit" type of BOVs, there is only one BOV per cell. But you're right of course. If there are several BOVs, you have to choose one.

[mpucoder]

It could have been authored to allow subtitles, with or without the BOV button, but that takes a lot of work. What would be needed is 6 subpicture streams, 3 with the BOV and no subs/English subs/Japanese subs, the other 3 without the BOV. This means one stream contains nothing but blank subpictures, which is a requirement for every place where there is a highlight layer for the BOV. It also requires additional logic in the BOV command to disallow the button for the 3 streams without the special features since the button will work without the on-screen graphic.

But you can not display 2 subpicture streams at the same time on a standalone player. Some software players can show 2 streams.

[kumi]

@mpucoder: sounds time-consuming! I guess I'm not surprised the studio responsible for this DVD decided to go the "easy" route. Or maybe they didn't even know about that trick... If I had more time available for this disc, I might try your method.

@blutach: I've got 1 BOV per-cell, so choosing isn't a problem.

@r0lZ: Thanks for your explanation of cell command numbers. It's quite simple now.

You mentioned that I need to enable the 'layer break?' flag on BOV-containing cells. Can you provide a brief explanation as to why this is necessary?

Actually... I'm still not sure which title to use as a basis for the new "all-in-one" title:

Title 1 w/ language captions (diffs are hlighted):
http://pastebin.com/820735
or
Title 4 w/ BOV (diffs are hlighted):
http://pastebin.com/820736

If I create a new title using Title 1 and remove all calls to Title 4, will be able to safely blank (w/ PgcEdit?) the unused interleaved CIDs in VID 7, 11, 15, 19, 23, 28 and 34, thus saving space for an eventual re-encode?

Also, if I use Title 1, would I have to enable the 'layer break?' flags on certain cells, just like r0lZ recommended for the BOV Title? (bear in mind the output will be a DVD5)

Thanks

[r0lZ]

You mentioned that I need to enable the 'layer break?' flag on BOV-containing cells. Can you provide a brief explanation as to why this is necessary?Don't forget that the "layer break" flag doesn't really exists. (BTW, I will remove it in the next version of PgcEdit.) The exact terminology is: you need to clear the "seamless joint" flag. See this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=844110#post844110) for a complete explanation.

As you can see, the cell following a cell command cannot be played seamlessly, or the cell command will be ignored (at least by most players.) Therefore, you have to clear the seamless flag on the next cell.

[r0lZ]

Actually... I'm still not sure which title to use as a basis for the new "all-in-one" title:

Title 1 w/ language captions (diffs are hlighted):
http://pastebin.com/820735
or
Title 4 w/ BOV (diffs are hlighted):
http://pastebin.com/820736
IMO, Title 4 is the best candidate, as it has the BOVs, and therefore is probably easier to edit. I suggest you clone it before modifying it. This way, you will still be able to watch the movie in the original conditions, with the BOVs but w/o the English subtitles.
However, as Title 1 is probably the main movie, it is perhaps better to use it instead of title 4. Titles 1 and 4 have different contents, so it's up to you. See below.

If I create a new title using Title 1 and remove all calls to Title 4, will be able to safely blank (w/ PgcEdit?) the unused interleaved CIDs in VID 7, 11, 15, 19, 23, 28 and 34, thus saving space for an eventual re-encode?Titles 1 and 4 are not multi-angle PGCs. They are multi-story PGCs. Although technically similar, there are important differences. A multi-angle PGC has several angles, and you can theoretically switch the current angle with the remote. Multi-story requires several PGCs (here Titles 1 and 4), but each PGC has only one angle. The content of the interleaved cells in title 1 is different of the content of the cells that are at the same position in title 4. So, playing title 1 or 4 is really different. BTW, be sure to edit the right title! (Again, IMO, it's Title 4 for the BOVs, but the standard story is probably Title 1.)

it should be possible to remove the seamless cells, but since the title is multi-story, you cannot use the "Del Angles" button in PgcEdit to do that. If you really want to regain some space, you have to completely remove one of the titles (that will be easy to do with the next version of PgcEdit), or to remove or blank all interleaved cells in the title (and that's already possible with PgcEdit or VobBlanker). Then, you must process the domain with FixVTS or VobBlanker to remove the ILV cells. Let's say you want to remove Title 1. You should be able to strip the VOB IDs 6, 10, 14, 18 etc...
Anyway, take care. I have already successfully removed angles with PgcEdit and FixVTS, but I'm not sure the same method works as expected for multi-story.

Also, if I use Title 1, would I have to enable the 'layer break?' flags on certain cells, just like r0lZ recommended for the BOV Title? (bear in mind the output will be a DVD5)As you should know now, you have to clear the seamless flags (or set the LB pseudo-flag) of all cells following a cell command. But you can clear it on cell 50 (of both titles) as that flag is probably really there because cell 50 is the layer break cell of the original DVD-9.

[kumi]

Oops, I forgot about the "pseudo" nature of PgcEdit's 'layer break' flag. Thanks for reminding me.

Looks like I'm on the right track now, I successfully created a new title that plays the main movie + on-set footage all in a row, using cell commands. Well... in Trace mode, at least ;)

I've still got a bit of VM hacking to iron out, but I'll post later on the result of blanking the ILV cells w/ PgcEdit.

OT: It's odd, I can't figure out why this disc was authored with ILV in the first place. As far as I can tell, the different interleaved VIDs in Title 1 and Title 4 have the exact same content...

[r0lZ]

OT: It's odd, I can't figure out why this disc was authored with ILV in the first place. As far as I can tell, the different interleaved VIDs in Title 1 and Title 4 have the exact same content...Except, probably, the BOVs in the nav packs. If they are defined, you can use them, even if you cannot see them.

But you're right: it is easier to author both titles with the same non-ilved cells, and disable the buttons by selecting another subpic stream (or none) and by setting the Button Select Or Activate PUO in Title 4.

[mpucoder]

I noticed the times were identical too, but r0lZ is probably right, title 4 contains the highlight layer for the BOV, while title 1 does not. This eliminates the problems of providing blank subpictures in the subtitle streams wherever a BOV occurs (the presence of the highlight demands all subpicture streams have a subpicture of the same time and duration) and disabling the button when not using BOV.