Any room for Ogg Vorbis?

[Awatef]

I'm posting this to ask about the future of this excellent compression format.
I mean, I get very good quality at bitrates as low as 80kbps for Stereo sound, no comparison with AAC at all, where you have to use AAC-HE with its dubious bandwidth tricks if you adventure yourself in such low bitrate zones.
But all I see here is people talking about AAC again and again.

I also don't see many stand-alones that handle the MKV container, which is I think a motor for the Ogg Vorbis format.

What do you guys think?

[nurbs]

Vorbis is a good format. My main problem with it is that it's more or less useless for more than 2 channels.

About AAC: Using HE AAC for bitrates over 64 kbbs is not really recommended.

[DarkZell666]

In fact, HE-AAC @ 32 or 48kbps sounds rather close to vorbis @ q0 (which gives an average 64kbps). So the bitrate/quality ratio for HE-AAC is higher.

However, vorbis audio can be stored in just any container (at least AVI and OGM, dunno about MP4), not specifically MKV only (OGM is the preferred container for ogg btw).

MKV is just more powerful than OGM (from what I've read on the matter, no personal experience, sorry), which is why MKV is more used. MKV also has much more tools available to work with.

It's a shame that MKV isn't supported by virtually ANY SAP, especially when such support only needs a bit of extra software handling (which companies are just too lazy to produce, or even borrow from open-source projects).

By hacking the firmware yourself, you can have a SAP support virtually anything, but that requires reverse-engineering (and it isn't always a legitimate procedure, depending on what country you're in and what the conditions for using the SAP are).

[Sharktooth]

The preferred container for Vorbis is .ogg.
While 99% of AVI files contains DivX or MPEG-4 ASP compatible streams along with MPEG audio, MKV is problematic to support coz it's a generic container and you can mux all kind of streams in it (expecially the ones AVI has problems with).
So a company will never write support for MKV coz it would mean their chipset would have to support every format on the planet... hence they just dont bother adding it.

[Awatef]

I always had problems with OGM when switching subs, that's why I didn't mention it.

As for AVI, I thought ogg was not supported, or problematic?

As for the bitrates, I'm actually looking for something that provides the quality of CBR MP3 @ 160kbps (good quality without the clear artefacting of 128k MP3) at bitrates of 96kbps or lower, and it seems like Vorbis is the only one able to do that. AAC seems to have a gap between 128k and 64k, AAC-LC being optimized for 128k+, AAC-HE being optimized for 64k-...

As for the SAP support, it's not like the AVI support is unlimited. A friend of mine has an LG player. Its manual clearly mentions the supported FourCCs, the supported subtitle formats, the supported audio formats, and all possible limitations. I don't think it is hard to implement MKV in a similiar way... no?

[Sharktooth]

ogg is the container, vorbis the audio format and theora the video format.
however vorbis in AVI is eventually possible (once there was an acm vorbis encoder now obsolete) but no one is interested in it coz it's problematic (as for example AVC in AVI).

for your audio needs i would suggest LC-AAC @ 96kbps, CT or Nero encoders.

for what concerns SAPs, there are no FOURCCs in MKV and it supports even more formats than AVI. I dont think the average user has the knowledge to know everything needed about audio, video, subtitles and other streams formats...
However a possible solution is matroska guys create a sort of profiles for different purpouses (SAPs compatibility, Royalty Free, ... and Unrestricted).
So a MKV-SAP profile can be integrated into standalone players without too much headaces and users will be sure that they can play back their MKV-SAP files in standalone players.

[Awatef]

Shark, you sure there are no FourCCs in MKV? I mean, ffdshow shows me the FourCC even if it is an MKV file, things like AVC1, XVID, etc

By the way, LC-AAC @ 96kbps you suggested is no good compared to Ogg (I know the thing about the container and stuff, but it's just more convenient this way :)).
I just made another test. Ogg -q2 gave me a file with 91kbps average with very good quality as always, but LC-AAC doesn't manage to beat it, be it in CBR mode (96kbps)or in this case the Radio VBR preset (86kbps average)

[Sharktooth]

that's coz that MKV was made in VFW mode (with virtualdub or similar softwares).
for what concerns Nero AAC.. use their commandline encoder not the one integrated into nero burning rom.

[Awatef]

Hmm... I see.
-EDIT: I used BeLight to encode... if it makes a difference...-

So does anyone of you see a future for Vorbis, between SAPs that support AVIs and iPods that support MP4s, could there be a place for Vorbis? :scared:

[Sharktooth]

Yes, the free distribution with theora videos.
Vorbis and Theora are completely free, while other formats have royalties you have to pay for commercial use.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Awatef,

If you're interested, it is possible to place MPEG-4 video with either MP3 or Vorbis audio within the .OGM container.... and play such files in various stand-alone players fitted with an MediaTek chip-set...

It's not a very popular way to go though ;)

[unmei]

I dunno, but my iriver supports ogg vorbis.
AFAIK there is not yet a law requiring you to buy a ipos and not another portable player. Yes i know the ogg vorbis players are not very common, but if you look for it.. i found mine in my local shop 200m from my flat and not by an extensive online research.

For video, well i just play my stuff on PC because i definitly don't want to deal with SAP restrictions. I know this is not a viable solution for everyone, but i guess for now, you just can't have every option on those boxes without having actually a kind of mini-PC.

I use vorbis both for music and for movie audio tracks and i don't feel any problems with it in my way of using it.

[dexy]

You re apsolutelly right. I am using vorbis and mp4 both. Frequently vorbis, but when I want perfect sound I am using mp4 on really high bitrate. Mkv is the best container, it is better then ogm, BUT, as you can see, people still use avi (wich is poor) in most cases. This is probably the problem affected by "easy to use" programs and theirs developers. Making the video extremly easy to watch or edit, without any knowledge. But, I think that mkv can be the new standard, but only when more people will use it.

[Awatef]

@ sharktooth
You mean that it will win in the long term because it is free?

@ seemoredigital
Good tip, thanks :)

@ unmei
Of course a PC is the best option, but PC prices begin at 300$ where SAP prices begin at 50$. It kinda hurts to pay 250$ more to get Vorbis support (which is my main concern here -- I'm not eager yet to have AVC support :D).

@ dexy
I hope so man. With all features MKV offers, like Aspect Ratio setting, built-in subs, wide codec acceptance, it will be like paradise in your living room!
I hope they could realize that on the PS3, since it has enormous power, even for HD... (I mean, they already managed to play DivX-AVIs on the PS2...)

[Sharktooth]

I mean ppl is interested in it coz it wont cost any money to implement it.
Also there is no "fees" for distributing non copyrighted or your own songs in vorbis format, while other formats may require to pay the licenses to use them (depending on the licensing terms and conditions).

[SeeMoreDigital]

If it's just Vorbis "audio only" (in .OGG) streams you want to play.... my Zensonic Z500 can play both 2Ch and 6Ch streams :)

[Awatef]

@ Seemoredigital
No, I was rather talking about vorbis embedded in video.
Even my PS2 can play ogg files :)

[Henrikx]

@dexy
This is probably the problem affected by "easy to use" programs and theirs developers.
How many One Click tools for MKV do you know?
Standard goes MKV . With which tools?
Standard MKV is only possible with "easy to use" Tools.
Example : XVID/AVI. A SAP for XVID/AVI = < 50 €. Why ? Becouse Million of People can work with AutoGK or Dr.DivX.
SO,you want that MKV goes Standard ! You have to create a one click tool,for Millions of Video-Rookis.Thats the way and the mistake of MKV developers.

[Sharktooth]

...
for what concerns SAPs, there are no FOURCCs in MKV and it supports even more formats than AVI. I dont think the average user has the knowledge to know everything needed about audio, video, subtitles and other streams formats...
However a possible solution is matroska guys create a sort of profiles for different purpouses (SAPs compatibility, Royalty Free, ... and Unrestricted).
So a MKV-SAP profile can be integrated into standalone players without too much headaces and users will be sure that they can play back their MKV-SAP files in standalone players.
read again and again... its not only a matter of "popularity"...

[Henrikx]

@Sharktooth
I have read this and of course you are quite right. But If something goes Standard you need Millions of People or much Money.
THX for answer..

[Sharktooth]

Well, MKV is quite popular... at least on this forum.
However i dont think it cant be a standard without compatibility profiles...

[Henrikx]

@Sharktooth
(stupid ?) Question
Is it difficult to create a SAP-profile ? Perhaps,near MP4.Then MKV can run on MP4 Chipsets and it would not be great effort for the industry.

[Awatef]

@ seemoredigital
You said you have the Zensonic Z500? I read Zensonic was to implement basic MKV support in their player, any news about that?

[SeeMoreDigital]

@ seemoredigital
You said you have the Zensonic Z500? I read Zensonic was to implement basic MKV support in their player, any news about that?No news as yet...

MKV support wont happen until Sigma produce an appropriate SDK (Software Development Kit)...


Cheers

[Sharktooth]

@Sharktooth
(stupid ?) Question
Is it difficult to create a SAP-profile ? Perhaps,near MP4.Then MKV can run on MP4 Chipsets and it would not be great effort for the industry.
It's not possible unless you hard-code profiles into MKV container specs.

[Henrikx]

@Sharktooth
Thank you for answer and explain.