standalone players and mpeg4 compliant codecs [Archive]

bananacreamandpeca

6th October 2006, 19:26

So I did some reading about mpeg1-4
And have learned that mpeg4 is a mere protocol mpeg4 codecs like xvid and divx have to comply in
order to be compatible (never knew that, all was so confusing)

Anyway, mpeg4 codecs like rv10, h264 (mpeg4-10) and xvid, divx.
Does this mean that video-files made with these codecs are playable on standalone players as well???

Thanks for having patience. Im still a noob.

mod

6th October 2006, 19:46

Hi, I'm going to make it very simple here ok?
(I hope all the users here will forgive me..)

Standalone players that support mpeg4 ASP and only AVI container can read:

video: divx, xvid (no GMC and no QPel), 3ivx, HDX4, Nero ASP
audio: mp3, ac3, etc (depending on the player)

Those that support mpeg4 ASP and AVI, MP4 container can read:

video: the same as before
audio: +AAC (not all profiles), but no ac3 in mp4

Before being killed by other members here, I suggest you to :search:

Sharktooth

6th October 2006, 19:51

RV10 is not MPEG-4 compliant. It's a proprietary codec.
Also MPEG-4 has different profiles and in case of AVC (AKA part 10, AKA h.264, AKA MPEG-4v10, etc) is a completely different codec.

kaabob

6th October 2006, 22:22

RV10 is not MPEG-4 compliant. It's a proprietary codec.
Also MPEG-4 has different profiles and in case of AVC (AKA part 10, AKA h.264, AKA MPEG-4v10, etc) is a completely different codec.

I was backing up my movies in AVC (using x.264) with HE-AAC in hopes of being able to play it on a stand-alone player in the future. I've heard that h.264 is the future, so are there going to be stand-alone players out in the future that supports AVC?

Sharktooth

8th October 2006, 02:51

Yes, all Blue Ray and HD-DVD players, NeroDigital AVC certified players and maybe some other devices too.

check

8th October 2006, 03:14

although they will support h264, nobody knows yet whether they will support 'computer style' h264 (ie a long GOP, various high profile options), or if there will even be a way for home users to burn content to the discs for playback.

bond

8th October 2006, 10:15

yeah, we will need to wait to get the exact hddvd, bluray specs for avc to be able to encode for being able to play avc on standalones

moved

SeeMoreDigital

8th October 2006, 21:27

bond

8th October 2006, 21:36

vlada

8th October 2006, 22:11

I'm quite sure that in 1 or 2 years we will see players with MP4-AVC/AAC support. If there will be demand from the market, we will also see these products.

Remeber the first DVD players? There was no MPG (MPEG-1/2) or AVI support, most of them didn't even play MP3s.

bananacreamandpeca
If you compress video with codecs XviD, DivX, 3ivX, Nero Digital ASP, libavcodec (ffdshow) and others, those files will be compliant to MPEG-4 ASP specification. But you can't be sure, that a standalone player will play these files. AFAIK there is no standalone player which can decode MPEG-4 ASP completely. So you have to disable some functions of the codecs (at least GMC in XviD and ND ASP), to create a file that your player can decode.

setarip_old

9th October 2006, 05:29

Standalone players that support mpeg4 ASP and only AVI container can read:
video: divx, xvid (no GMC and no QPel), 3ivx, HDX4, Nero ASPHas anyone, in fact, successfully played a .3IVX-compressed .AVI on a Philips 642/37 (or any other "same category" standalone player)?

if so, what version of the .3IVX codec and what settings did you use?

bond

9th October 2006, 18:32

Has anyone, in fact, successfully played a .3IVX-compressed .AVI on a Philips 642/37 (or any other "same category" standalone player)?

if so, what version of the .3IVX codec and what settings did you use? every mpeg-4 asp stream being asp compliant and using the features the player supports (eg no qpel or gmc) will work on the player

what can cause problems is the avi container, eg by using fourccs the player doesnt support, like the 3ivx fourcc
therefore you will need to change the fourcc to XVID or DX50 for example

weaver4

9th October 2006, 18:49

Indeed... I've asked various people around the world with Blue-ray and HD-DVD players to test the playback of "Main Profile" MPEG-4 AVC encoded to .AVI and .MP4.... But so far it's a "no-go" I'm afraid.

Maybe if the "test streams" were placed within the .MPG and/or .TS containers the situation would be different....

Cheers

This type of test makes you appreciate the work that DivX put into DivX certification and testing. I believe that something similar will be needed in the future for AVC on SAP. I am not convinced that what Nero is doing will be the answer.

SeeMoreDigital

9th October 2006, 18:52

This type of test makes you appreciate the work that DivX put into DivX certification and testing.Erm no, not really.....

That's what ISO/IEE specifications are for!

setarip_old

9th October 2006, 20:48

@bondlike the 3ivx fourcc
therefore you will need to change the fourcc to XVID or DX50Thanks for this info!

I'll have to check it out ;>}

setarip_old

10th October 2006, 00:41

@bond

Just finished trying your suggested 4CC changes.

Unfortunately, just like the original 3ivx_compressed video, these too were unplayable/rejected by my Philips DVP 642/37.

(FYI, I'm using 3IVX D4 4.03)

**EDIT** Has anyone had any real world success playing a 3IVX-compressed video, whether using 4CC changing or other means, on a Philips DVP 642/37? If so, please provide specifics...

CruNcher

10th October 2006, 01:11

Most likely AVC will only playback inside of .EVO (Programm Streams) on certified HD-DVD SAP's, those streams seem to be marked with a special header that identifies it as normal customers HD(HDV) content (no software from ISVs yet for this).

SeeMoreDigital

10th October 2006, 08:27

Just finished trying your suggested 4CC changes.

Unfortunately, just like the original 3ivx_compressed video, these too were unplayable/rejected by my Philips DVP 642/37.

(FYI, I'm using 3IVX D4 4.03)

From what I remember 3ivx's codecs offer mostly "Simple Profile" encoding options, with the exception of MPEG (and H263) quantization matrixes. Meaning, if you generated encodes using MPEG matrixes, the Philips might b0rk!

By-the-way, have you tried muxing a 3ivx stream into the MP4 container (with YAMB) and playing that?

Cheers

weaver4

10th October 2006, 13:52

Erm no, not really.....

That's what ISO/IEE specifications are for!

It is always good to have some organization that is responsible to determine if you really meet the specification as intended.

mod

10th October 2006, 14:03

My Waitec HTX plays fine 3ivx in AVI without any fourCC change (it plays also QPel and 1 wp GMC DivXs so I can't remember the profiles I used sorry). I can't make any test with mp4 because it doesn't support it.

SeeMoreDigital

10th October 2006, 16:02

It is always good to have some organization that is responsible to determine if you really meet the specification as intended.Indeed.... That's what these guys (http://www.m4if.org/) are all about ;)

My Waitec HTX plays fine 3ivx in AVI without any fourCC change (it plays also QPel and 1 wp GMC DivXs so I can't remember the profiles I used sorry). I can't make any test with mp4 because it doesn't support it.As does my Pioneer DV-575A (MediaTek chip-set), Zensonic Z500 (Sigma EM8620L chip-set) and Tevion DVD800 (Zoran Vaddis 888 chip-set)...

Cheers

weaver4

10th October 2006, 16:27

SMD: Very interesting; I did not realize that these people would review actual hardware to determine if it was compliant.

setarip_old

10th October 2006, 17:22

By-the-way, have you tried muxing a 3ivx stream into the MP4 container (with YAMB) and playing that?No, I was just interested in the original post by "bond' apparently stating that the 642/37 would play .3IVX videos straightaway...

SeeMoreDigital

10th October 2006, 21:28

No, I was just interested in the original post by "bond' apparently stating that the 642/37 would play .3IVX videos straightaway... In that case it might well be your 3ivx encodes have been generated with a MPEG matrices the chip-set does not like. Or Philip's has removed support in various firmwares since Bond made his post!

If you run your 3ivx sources thru' MPEG4 Modifier it will inform you whether it was encoded using an H.263 or MPEG quant matrices...

setarip_old

10th October 2006, 21:44

Or Philip's has removed support in various firmwares since Bond made his post!Naah - My player still has its original v.1109 firmware - and "bond's" post was made yesterday ;>}

SeeMoreDigital

10th October 2006, 22:28

Hmmm!

I don't see where Bond made "specific" reference to the Philips DVP642/37 being able to play 3ivx encoded streams. What he said was: -every mpeg-4 asp stream being asp compliant and using the features the player supports (eg no qpel or gmc) will work on the playerHowever, apart from Qpel and GMC other advanced simple profile (ASP (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=461587#post461587)) features include B-VOP's, MPEG/Custom Quantization Matricies and Adaptive Quantization.

Since the only ASP feature 3ivx offered was an Custom MPEG Matricies, this is a likely place to start looking for compatibility issues!

That said (and as I've mentioned so many times before), Philips have never been very pro-active in getting the most out of the ESS Vibratto II chip-set :eek:

BigDid

10th October 2006, 22:55

...Since the only ASP feature 3ivx offered was an Custom MPEG Matricies, this is a likely place to start looking for compatibility issues!...
Hi SMD and Setarip_Old

I have no knowledge of the 3ivx but, concerning the custom matrixes, Xvid and the Philips DVP642/37, I answered quite a few threads were the compatibility problems were pinned down to a custom matrix.

It was specifically with AutoGk when the user did not check the ESS profile, using de facto the AGK custom matrixes (Jawor1cd or Sharktooth EQM V2) instead of the H263/MPEG standard matrixes.

Did

cacepi

11th October 2006, 02:05

**EDIT** Has anyone had any real world success playing a 3IVX-compressed video, whether using 4CC changing or other means, on a Philips DVP 642/37? If so, please provide specifics... I just tried a quick encode and can get 3ivx 4.5.1 to work on my Philips DVP 642/37 (firmware 1109) by unchecking Half Pixel Motion and Four Vector Motion in Advanced Options and switching the FOURCC to "DX50".

I assume "Four Vection Motion" is the 3ivx equivalent to Global Motion Compensation.

SeeMoreDigital

11th October 2006, 08:45

I just tried a quick encode and can get 3ivx 4.5.1 to work on my Philips DVP 642/37 (firmware 1109) by unchecking Half Pixel Motion and Four Vector Motion in Advanced Options and switching the FOURCC to "DX50".

I assume "Four Vection Motion" is the 3ivx equivalent to Global Motion Compensation.Errrm no!

Four Vector Motion
If checked the codec will perform 8x8 block search as well as 16x16 block matching resulting in 4 motion vectors for some 16x16 blocks. This can improve the motion representation, thus improving quality and reducing bitrate. Disabling Four Vector Motion can speed up an encode.

Source - http://www.3ivx.com/support/windows/encoding/vfw.html

Cheers

cacepi

12th October 2006, 02:00

Errrm no!
Source - http://www.3ivx.com/support/windows/encoding/vfw.html

I stand corrected. So it's Block Motion Compensation, then?

I just love living in AcronymLand, don't you? <grin>

vlada

12th October 2006, 06:55

weaver4 There are many DivX certified players that won't play video encoded using DivX codec. To get a DivX certification, the player has to support only 1 b-frame and q-pel AFAIK. So if you use 2 b-frames, GMC or Packed Bitstream, your video might not play even on a certified player.

In fact DivX is the company that caused a big confusion. Look how many people are talking about DivX format. Such format doesen't exist. It is AVI with MPEG-4 ASP vdeo compression and usually MP3 or AC3 audio compression.

You see everywhere people asking, if their player will play XviD encoded files if only supports DivX. They don't know it is the very same MPEG-4 ASP format.

Have you ever heard people talking about ProCoder, CCE, HC, QuEnc or TMPGEnc format? No, they usually call it MPEG-2. So why are people talking about DivX format and not MPEG-4?

weaver4

12th October 2006, 13:41

vlada they are talking about DivX since they have a certification program and a DivX logo on the SAPs. Pretty good marketing, I think. I maybe should of been more specific: DivX-Home Theater. I think of DivX as a subset of MPEG-4 that does not support (as default) 2 b-frames, GMC or Packed Bitstream. We certainly would not have 200 SAPs in the Market without the DivX standard (IMHO).

Jay Bee

12th October 2006, 16:04

The way I see it there are no chips around that support full MPEG4-ASP. So instead of waiting for such a chip to appear one day, Divx decided to define their own standard. IMO this is what made it possible for companies to realease so many Divx players in the first place.

What causes a lot of problems in the ASP market though is that XviD decided to use default values that don't play on a lot of Divx players (2 B-frames). I f XviD's default settings were Divx compliant I think the ASP STB market would have been far better off for both consumers and manufacturers.

Here's hoping that AVC will work better. With players and burners on the market why isn't there more information on this? (or have I missed it?)